There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

[*matterus023*]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

 

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

 

What is your deal here? It's like you are running PR for the Meyers. I understood it when they were not posting and you were defending people who were not present. But they are on the boards and can defend themselves. Every post of yours claims to be the objective observer, but you clearly are biased on the subject. Just don't get it

 

He's running PR for them Bc he sends them books for them to restore and then sells them.

 

If their work is cast in a negative light, then that could potentially translate into a lower price.

 

Sound about right Gekko?

 

Oh dear and back we are again. If people choose to read through this whole thread you will see that this is not the case at all.

 

Maybe the fact that sooooo many on here felt it was ok to bad name people's work and I felt it was unjust has just led me on a campaign to hush silly, incorrect guesses and views on here. Don't think just because enough of you wil team up I will sit quietly thinking oh no a few on here won't buy from me. Trust me that is not the case

 

I will defend anyone on here or anywhere else dependant on if I know them or not (if the posts are negative enough and have a sense of bullying to them). To those immature people on here (even with thousands of posts) stop making out like you don't have an agenda as to me and I am sure many others it is very apparent some of you do.

 

Sound about right........... that is right I don't high five others here to try and make my points look more valid. Well as I am accused of being PR for them now (at least people have changed their mind that I am Matt Meyers at least) I will say no more on the subject.

 

Lastly to clarify I wasn't defending them early on. I was telling others to stop bad mouthing them without anything to go on. I never said go buy their work, how amazing it was (as I don;t know their work,methods, comic to touch etc). We shall see what happens in time

[Johnny545]

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance.

 

 

I think of books that have been badly restored when I read the word, frankenbook.

 

My concern is with the creation of books that so extensively restored that they might merit the term, counterfeit.

 

Well, from the before and actual pictures which we have been provided with so far, this does not appear to be the case here.

 

They appear to be previously SP or MP restored books in the 8.0 range or so which have now been given that extra bit of juice in order to maximize out their potential to something like a 9.4 or a 9.6, but now as an fully disclosed EP restored book.

 

It seems that some of the posters here are making its sound as though they are taking 0.5 or 1.0 graded books and recreating them into 9.4 or 9.6 books. This does not appear to be what I am seeing here, as far as I can tell so far.

 

 

 

Isn't the concern that this may be true in some instances, but perhaps not all - or not all yet?

 

Or that no one may know, or worse yet, can't tell.

 

I may be wrong, but I thought the methods used left little confidence CGC knew what was original versus wholesale recreation.

 

If the he work is so extensive and the techniques used (extensive layering of materials) render it impossible to determine where the original parts stop and the recreation starts that seems like it would create a confidence problem, a risk for buyers looking for the book to hold value or appreciate and a slippery slope in terms of the future of restoration.

 

I guess the other problem I see is that while these grades are eye catching now, its largely because the restorers have just gotten started.

 

How many Hulk 1's can be re-restored to achieve a high grade - dozens, hundreds, and how does that impact the perceived value? (there are approx. 300 restored hulk 1's just on CGC's census).

 

I'd be weary of highly restored SA keys holding value. I am not sure the same holds true for GA keys simply because there are far fewer around that could be restored to a high grade.

 

In the end, the market will determine whether this is a sustainable business model and we see a proliferation of these books.

 

Anyway, its an interesting discussion and everyone is free to vote with their checkbook.

 

[Red84]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

 

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

 

What is your deal here? It's like you are running PR for the Meyers. I understood it when they were not posting and you were defending people who were not present. But they are on the boards and can defend themselves. Every post of yours claims to be the objective observer, but you clearly are biased on the subject. Just don't get it

 

He's running PR for them Bc he sends them books for them to restore and then sells them.

 

If their work is cast in a negative light, then that could potentially translate into a lower price.

 

Sound about right Gekko?

 

Oh dear and back we are again. If people choose to read through this whole thread you will see that this is not the case at all.

 

Maybe the fact that sooooo many on here felt it was ok to bad name people's work and I felt it was unjust has just led me on a campaign to hush silly, incorrect guesses and views on here. Don't think just because enough of you wil team up I will sit quietly thinking oh no a few on here won't buy from me. Trust me that is not the case

 

I will defend anyone on here or anywhere else dependant on if I know them or not (if the posts are negative enough and have a sense of bullying to them). To those immature people on here (even with thousands of posts) stop making out like you don't have an agenda as to me and I am sure many others it is very apparent some of you do.

 

Sound about right........... that is right I don't high five others here to try and make my points look more valid. Well as I am accused of being PR for them now (at least people have changed their mind that I am Matt Meyers at least) I will say no more on the subject.

 

I have read the whole thread. I changed my mind about the Meyers after they came on here and gave a very forthright explanation of their process. From the very beginning you have attacked those who questioned their practices with the statement that they don't know enough about the Meyers' restoration techniques. Valid. However, you have done the exact thing in the opposite direction. You have defended their techniques without knowing about them either. The Meyers helped themselves greatly with their answers on here. With every blatantly biased statement that you make, it actually hurts their cause as you appear like a shill for them. You might think you're helping them; but I don't think that's the case.

[bluechip]

I think the suggestion was made that CGC had declined to grade some (many? all?) of these books. An interesting development if true.

 

This is the most interesting piece of information/speculation in this thread.

 

If confirmed it speaks volumes about what is being done and the risks of lending credibility by assigning these books not just a grade, but a very high grade.

 

If you go to logical extremes as some noted, one could chemically wash out a TEC 26 and meticulously recreate a TEC 27, aside for labor costs you've got a 50-100X return.

 

You've destroyed a TEC26 and diluted the value of other restored TEC27's.

 

This is an extreme example, but if so much work is done you can't tell what if anything is original that is a huge problem and opens up the possibility for all manners of terrible things.

 

There are armies of skilled artists in China painting copies of complex masterworks. There was a very good 60 minutes on this.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/art-of-the-forger-60-minutes-profiles-master-of-fake-paintings/

 

The paintings are made for hundreds and sold for low 4 figures because the labor is so cheap.

 

Slippery slope...

 

With the contacts here it could be confirmed whether CGC refused to grade these books and in the interests of the industry and people bidding on these books it should be.

 

 

Thank you for posting that link.

 

This thread has been fun to read and very, very educational. Thank you all and Happy New Year!

 

 

 

I also think that.......''the suggestion was made that CGC had declined to grade some (many? all?) of these books. An interesting development if true''.........is interesting

 

However it doesn't imo mean.....''If confirmed it speaks volumes about what is being done and the risks of lending credibility by assigning these books not just a grade, but a very high grade.''

 

This would be true if we all agree that whatever cgc says is gospel and their opinions on grading etc is the only voice that should be heard or have any weight. If cgc actually clarify on the boards that infact they won't grade them for certain reasons then that is all well and good but also CBCS could also say well they are wrong, the work is incredible which is why we grade the way we do.

 

I feel it is a real tough one as one could easily say CGC have it in their interest to put the Meyers work down but on the flip you could also say they are right. So even if it does come out it wil still leave the individual left with the answer who do they believe or how it effects their mind set.

 

Plus yes in theory I suppose you could change a 26 to a 27 but every inch of every page........... I feel any company wouldn't give it a grade or even entertain allowing it to stay anywhee except for the bin

 

Ship of Theseus comes to mind

_________________________

 

The problem comes back to the extreme stigmatization of any restoration which has gotten to the point that a book missing a corner is valued more than a book with tiny color touch on the corner.

 

If you condemn all restored books as equally bad, you remove any incentive to minimize the work that has been done to it. If a guy discovers that a former owner glued a tear or colored in a wrinkle on his GA book, then he might as well go all in and get the highest number possible.

 

[Boba]

That Hulk 1 looks about as nice as one could.

 

Probably deserving of the grade.

 

Showcase 4 9.8

 

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=650279

 

 

"the highest graded testored Showcase #4 in existence"

[*matterus023*]

Are many of us forgetting the Detective comics 27 that was in a CGC 9.2 Extensive holder, and now resides in a CGC 9.4 Moderate holder? No resto was removed from the book, but it was re-evaluated and maxed out. Restoration techniques have changed substantially from the years of grafting individual pieces of paper. With leafcasting, every defect is easily filled in, and if you so desire, you can color touch over everything to make the book look better than when it hit the newsstand.

 

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance. When I restored my Action 7, I chose not to color touch the leafcasted areas as I didn't feel it was necessary, and the work could be reversed if need be. Adding color touch and blending it into the actual cover makes the work a little harder to undo.

 

Most people who restore do so with the best interest of the book and to preserve it. If people are doing resto for their own financial gain, then yes, they will do everything possible to max out the book, which appears to be the case with these books. However, I do not feel this should define the entire restored book market.

 

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking but you are 100% right with the rest of your post ( IMO ) Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good but it could be undone easy. I would love unrestored Action 1 to 10 in poor grade but the 1 alone would cost more than the set Restored.

 

 

''Matt did my Action 10 and did little color that did not match up good''

 

Now this is in the opinion of the person who posted but....

 

It does make me think that maybe we are all used to a level of restoration that was never truly that amazing and now someone has come along and 'may' be doing incredible work we just can't compute it.

 

I know this will be quoted and many things could be said. Just saying it is possible

 

I vote for a restoration off. Same comic same level done

 

What is your deal here? It's like you are running PR for the Meyers. I understood it when they were not posting and you were defending people who were not present. But they are on the boards and can defend themselves. Every post of yours claims to be the objective observer, but you clearly are biased on the subject. Just don't get it

 

He's running PR for them Bc he sends them books for them to restore and then sells them.

 

If their work is cast in a negative light, then that could potentially translate into a lower price.

 

Sound about right Gekko?

 

Oh dear and back we are again. If people choose to read through this whole thread you will see that this is not the case at all.

 

Maybe the fact that sooooo many on here felt it was ok to bad name people's work and I felt it was unjust has just led me on a campaign to hush silly, incorrect guesses and views on here. Don't think just because enough of you wil team up I will sit quietly thinking oh no a few on here won't buy from me. Trust me that is not the case

 

I will defend anyone on here or anywhere else dependant on if I know them or not (if the posts are negative enough and have a sense of bullying to them). To those immature people on here (even with thousands of posts) stop making out like you don't have an agenda as to me and I am sure many others it is very apparent some of you do.

 

Sound about right........... that is right I don't high five others here to try and make my points look more valid. Well as I am accused of being PR for them now (at least people have changed their mind that I am Matt Meyers at least) I will say no more on the subject.

 

I have read the whole thread. I changed my mind about the Meyers after they came on here and gave a very forthright explanation of their process. From the very beginning you have attacked those who questioned their practices with the statement that they don't know enough about the Meyers' restoration techniques. Valid. However, you have done the exact thing in the opposite direction. You have defended their techniques without knowing about them either. The Meyers helped themselves greatly with their answers on here. With every blatantly biased statement that you make, it actually hurts their cause as you appear like a shill for them. You might think you're helping them; but I don't think that's the case.

 

''You have defended their techniques without knowing about them either''

 

Please show me where. I would love to know where I actively wasn't defending them in the sense that people shouldn't guess at the quality of their work but actually specifically defended there techniques. Not sure how many times I have pointed out I have no idea of their techniques or the way they work but maybe I haven't said it enough.

[Hibou]

That Hulk 1 looks about as nice as one could.

 

Probably deserving of the grade.

 

Showcase 4 9.8

 

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=650279

 

 

"the highest graded testored Showcase #4 in existence"

 

 

[Columbia Comics]

I for one never said a thing about the restoration or the individuals who are doing the work.

 

Like others have said, the books are theirs and they can do what they want with them. I have no love for restored books so the outcome makes no difference to me.

 

Matt....It just seems that you are very quick to defend, yet you say you don't know them or have any knowledge of their techniques.

 

You say you do this Bc you would do it for anyone that was being "bullied"? I didn't see where anyone bullied them. The main question was CBCS grading and the level of restoration done and whether or not it is restoration or actually manufacturing a collectible.

 

My feeling is they you have them perform work for you, sell the books, rinse and repeat.

 

 

So I ask you point blank: have you or do you use them to perform restoration work?

[*matterus023*]

I have already covered this and said yes I got them to do a ST110 for me a while back. That is the first time I spoke to them.

 

Besides that I don't. Plus why would they want me to buy a comic (by the way I couldn't afford these type of comics, on my own anyway) and do it for me when they could do it on their own. Wouldn't make any sense.

 

For me to know someone or to have had work done by someone once does not mean that I can't have an opinion without being business partners. Does it

 

Look if no one mentions me anymore as I am nothing to do with this then I won't keep feeling the need to defend myself.

 

The discussion is an interesting one in itsefl. Trust me when I say it is more interesting than the comics I buy or my buying habbits in general

 

Plus of course I have no knowledge of their techiniques. I wouldn't expect any restorer to tell little old me. But if anyone is compelled to tell me I am all ears

[lou_fine]

But calling all restored books frankenbooks when you don't know what has been done to them is not correct if you ask me. Many books are restored in a way to improve their structural integrity and their overall appearance.

 

 

I think of books that have been badly restored when I read the word, frankenbook.

 

My concern is with the creation of books that so extensively restored that they might merit the term, counterfeit.

 

Well, from the before and actual pictures which we have been provided with so far, this does not appear to be the case here.

 

They appear to be previously SP or MP restored books in the 8.0 range or so which have now been given that extra bit of juice in order to maximize out their potential to something like a 9.4 or a 9.6, but now as an fully disclosed EP restored book.

 

It seems that some of the posters here are making its sound as though they are taking 0.5 or 1.0 graded books and recreating them into 9.4 or 9.6 books. This does not appear to be what I am seeing here, as far as I can tell so far.

 

 

The book was obviously restored twice. How do you know what it looked like initially? Also with today's work, a 1.5 can be made much higher. A book that is sharp aside from a spine split could easily make it to 9.0 or higher.

 

Of course these books have been restored twice. They have already clearly stated that they are taking previously restored books and performing more work on them so that they will be able to obtain higher condition grades. They have also provided both before and after pictures of these books to try to point out the changes made.

 

And no, nobody except the initial seller and restorer knows what the books originally looked like prior to their first restoration. I would assume that the initial seller who had the work done did not bother to provide the same amount of disclosure in terms of before/after pictures along with details of the exact work performed, which the Meyers appear to be providing to us.

 

Since I am not a restoration expert in the least, I would assume that books which were originally only in the 1.5 range and have been initially restored the first time to something in the 8.0 range or even as high as 9.0 would not be designated as only SP or MP. My guess is that since the initial restoration work were only SP or MP, the original condition grade of the unrestored books were most likely higher than the 1.5 or so range which you are referring to.

[ciorac]

This thread had pointed out to me a conflict of interests across the major grading companies when it comes to high grade restored keys. Im just askin how we can have at the same time both grading impartiality as well as conflict of interests ?

Which of the grading companies both restores (in all its manifestations) books and subsequently grades the quality of their own work? :

 

My guess is all three of the grading companies to some degree

[AnkurJ]

You can't get a 1.5 to an 8.0 with moderate work.

 

I can show you my detective 35 which had a full spine split that was taped and color touched years ago by an armature. After the initial resto was removed, the book looked like a 6.0, but had no spine making it a 1.5. The spine was leaf casted which equals a lot of replacement and automatically making it extensive work.

[Moondog]

Think I'll stay away from extensively restored books.

 

[Johnny545]

Hi Guys - Happy New Year!

 

CGC has graded every book we have ever submitted. And they have graded every book very highly. Just to clear up thanks!

 

Emily & Matt

 

Is it your understanding all of the books you currently have for sale in CBCS holders if cracked and submitted to CGC would be graded?

[Moondog]

Hi Guys - Happy New Year!

 

CGC has graded every book we have ever submitted. And they have graded every book very highly. Just to clear up thanks!

 

Emily & Matt

 

Hi Emily. If someone were to pick up and thumb through one of your books - say the Detective 33 before it was slabbed - would they think it felt "natural" and "normal?" Or would it feel "different" because of the work you did to it?

[VintageComics]

So where does this thread leave us?

 

- The Meyers game changer looks like it has destroyed the Ext (P) books. Not many will be eager to sink big money into this plod category. It has become way to uncertain and the ext category is now way too broad.

 

- this new reality will force CGC once again to reevaluate their plod grafing system. This must come as a response to how the Ext category has been manipulated into new territory.

 

If this thread exists because the new form of restoration is currently not easy to differentiate from the original parts of the book, all it means is that there is a new form of restoration and people will need to learn more about it to make an informed opinion.

 

There are many technologies that can likely be used to identify parts of a book as to what is original and what is not. Certification companies will merely need to invest in them if they want to stay on top of this.

 

- it is now painfully obvious that the CGC and CBCS are grading books on the basis of different and competing criteria. Thus it becomes evident that the service they both wish to provide (impartiality) is no longer impartial. If their grading was impartial and unbiased they wouldnt be differing?

 

I don't understand this part of the post. It is possible to disagree with someone and still be impartial.

[igb-migration]

It would feel natural and normal. And far more natural and normal than the previous CGC 6.0 B-5 that it originally was. When we first cracked the 6.0, the book would not open well. Attached is a pic of the 6.0 after removing wraps and forcing it open. Of course we leaf cast, but when it comes to hinging we use a very strong, flexible, lightweight Tengucho (5-7 g/m² for SA and 9-11 g/m² for GA - shout out to Hiromi Paper in Los Angeles) supported by pure cellulose powder and methyl cellulose. Initially we too were having issues with spine stiffness which we assessed came form leaf casting discrepancies - too much wheat starch or methyl, larger areas being cast too quickly/thickly, warping, cockling... Too little and it would be too brittle. So for hinge flexibility (especially over time) we only use a reliable rice paper. Aside from that the book is thin, as I mentioned elsewhere we use a micrometer to gauge and monitor thickness both SA and GA. No acrylic on interior wraps. All mends reversible in distilled water, color and texture matched using de-acidified, same-era, same-media pulp.

 

Our earlier books (2-3 years ago) were no where near as refined or beautiful. So if you dig up one of IGB's practice books you might be able to use it as a deadly weapon. But this past year we are thrilled with our product. And if you check the grader's notes for the Tec 33, you will see no mention of thickness or spine stiffness - and believe me CBCS would note it and deduct, as they did for us early on. The only serious deduction on this Tec 33 is staining on centerfold wrap (which may be attributed to a slight mismatch on a reversible mend).

 

We have been very fortunate to have had some of the industry's top players (Matt Nelson and Steve Borock) advise us as we have evolved.

[AJD]

I fear at least some of this discussion will not pass CGC's 'not in our corporate interest' test, but it has been a really interesting and enlightening discussion. Thanks very much to igb for your input. There are some real issues for the hobby generally that come out of these developments, and it'll be interesting to see how things develop.

 

 

[igb-migration]

Mod 6.0 or E 9.4

 

Mod 6.0 for me.

 

The book was originally an Extensive B-5 6.0, not Moderate - just to clear up.

[Moondog]

It would feel natural and normal. And far more natural and normal than the previous CGC 6.0 B-5 that it originally was. When we first cracked the 6.0, the book would not open well. Attached is a pic of the 6.0 after removing wraps and forcing it open. Of course we leaf cast, but when it comes to hinging we use a very strong, flexible, lightweight Tengucho (5-7 g/m² for SA and 9-11 g/m² for GA - shout out to Hiromi Paper in Los Angeles) supported by pure cellulose powder and methyl cellulose. Initially we too were having issues with spine stiffness which we assessed came form leaf casting discrepancies - too much wheat starch or methyl, larger areas being cast too quickly/thickly, warping, cockling... Too little and it would be too brittle. So for hinge flexibility (especially over time) we only use a reliable rice paper. Aside from that the book is thin, as I mentioned elsewhere we use a micrometer to gauge and monitor thickness both SA and GA. No acrylic on interior wraps. All mends reversible in distilled water, color and texture matched using de-acidified, same-era, same-media pulp.

 

Our earlier books (2-3 years ago) were no where near as refined or beautiful. So if you dig up one of IGB's practice books you might be able to use it as a deadly weapon. But this past year we are thrilled with our product. And if you check the grader's notes for the Tec 33, you will see no mention of thickness or spine stiffness - and believe me CBCS would note it and deduct, as they did for us early on. The only serious deduction on this Tec 33 is staining on centerfold wrap (which may be attributed to a slight mismatch on a reversible mend).

 

We have been very fortunate to have had some of the industry's top players (Matt Nelson and Steve Borock) advise us as we have evolved.

 

Thanks.