There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

[Red84]

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, they are almost exclusively folks that didn't interact with CGC, Steve, or West when they started CGC, 3rd-party grading, and were not on the forum at all prior to Steve leaving out on his own and then to Heritage. Back when CGC interacted with us peons...

 

+ 1 ....... Steve, as busy as he was while with CGC, took the time to post in the forums and I found that admirable. There was no CGC before Steve. Rather than look down on those who are looking down on him, I prefer to chalk it up to ignorance and their never having had the chance to get to know him. He and West are both good peeps.... and I miss them both around here. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

I got to meet Steve at the Chicago forum dinner this year and he's a great guy.

[PovertyRow]

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, they are almost exclusively folks that didn't interact with CGC, Steve, or West when they started CGC, 3rd-party grading, and were not on the forum at all prior to Steve leaving out on his own and then to Heritage. Back when CGC interacted with us peons...

 

+ 1 ....... Steve, as busy as he was while with CGC, took the time to post in the forums and I found that admirable. There was no CGC before Steve. Rather than look down on those who are looking down on him, I prefer to chalk it up to ignorance and their never having had the chance to get to know him. He and West are both good peeps.... and I miss them both around here. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

What I posted above was an agreement with what had already been posted. Somehow it got extracted as if i were the originator of the idea. And say what you want, there has been a noticeable snark level when referring to CBCS (which is also snark at Steve and West) by folks who were here back in the day. As a friend of Steve for 17 years it bothers me.

 

So below is the original:

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking

 

 

Resto standards have changed but so have resto designation standards. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that old book graded under CGC's old grading standards and the new book under the updated resto designations?

 

Yes old label 9.2 E to new 9.4 M

 

It may be a difference in the perception of "conservation" vs "restoration". That is, techniques now deemed conservation were at one time included in restoration. So with those conservation techniques out of the restoration picture, that could account for a bump down as in Ext to Mod or Mod to Sl.

 

Great point. I might even think that makes sence.

 

It might make Sense

 

Wow, it's simply amazing how we rationalize and try to look for reasons to give CGC the benefit of the doubt when we see inconsistencies or any questions in terms of their grading or restoration rating determinations. Yes indeed, it must be their "new and improved" techniques or more accurate re-definitions.

 

Yet, when we see any inconsistencies or questions with respect to grading or restoration rating issues from the other company, a large number of the board members here immediately accuse them of gross incompetency or what have you. And seemingly, almost to the point of total contempt and disdain, as though they had just committed a fraudulent act with heinous intent.

 

I actually find this rather surprising, considering that many of these were the exact same board members that used to espouse the honesty, integrity, knowledge, and sheer competence of Steve and West when they were both still working with CGC.

 

Now my post was in the core of your quote but it applied equally to CGC and CBCS. And I wasn't making excuses for them. I was stating what I strongly believe is happening. With different definitions of what is restoration vs conservation coming into play, the designations (Ext, Mod, Slight) could well change along with them. But ever since I started on these boards I have always maintained it makes no difference what you call it: restoration, conservation, whatever. A different term does not change what a book has been through. And a MUCH better understanding of what restoration is (including conservation) is sorely needed.

 

Agreed.

 

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

 

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

[Aman619]

Look at my bottom staple images... The yellow pics. There are many areas that "look" the same but, having been painted freehand, or traced, are not exactly perfect. But, in my limited exposure to extensively restored covers, I don't think their attention to detail is much different from other restorers efforts in perfectly matching the printed line work. I don't think anybody has really cared or expected perfect fidelity in every painted detail.. But the Myers overall impressive quality actually make you expect it.

 

On this Tec 33, look at the lite blue water areas and the darker orange stone shadows around the black lines. Very little of these areas are perfectly copied. I wonder if the undercoating etc that CGC wasn't fond of is just too thick to use a light box for tracing??

 

Staring at both images is actually like one of those games where you need to find tiny differences!

[Aman619]

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, they are almost exclusively folks that didn't interact with CGC, Steve, or West when they started CGC, 3rd-party grading, and were not on the forum at all prior to Steve leaving out on his own and then to Heritage. Back when CGC interacted with us peons...

 

+ 1 ....... Steve, as busy as he was while with CGC, took the time to post in the forums and I found that admirable. There was no CGC before Steve. Rather than look down on those who are looking down on him, I prefer to chalk it up to ignorance and their never having had the chance to get to know him. He and West are both good peeps.... and I miss them both around here. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

What I posted above was an agreement with what had already been posted. Somehow it got extracted as if i were the originator of the idea. And say what you want, there has been a noticeable snark level when referring to CBCS (which is also snark at Steve and West) by folks who were here back in the day. As a friend of Steve for 17 years it bothers me.

 

So below is the original:

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking

 

 

Resto standards have changed but so have resto designation standards. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that old book graded under CGC's old grading standards and the new book under the updated resto designations?

 

Yes old label 9.2 E to new 9.4 M

 

It may be a difference in the perception of "conservation" vs "restoration". That is, techniques now deemed conservation were at one time included in restoration. So with those conservation techniques out of the restoration picture, that could account for a bump down as in Ext to Mod or Mod to Sl.

 

Great point. I might even think that makes sence.

 

It might make Sense

 

Wow, it's simply amazing how we rationalize and try to look for reasons to give CGC the benefit of the doubt when we see inconsistencies or any questions in terms of their grading or restoration rating determinations. Yes indeed, it must be their "new and improved" techniques or more accurate re-definitions.

 

Yet, when we see any inconsistencies or questions with respect to grading or restoration rating issues from the other company, a large number of the board members here immediately accuse them of gross incompetency or what have you. And seemingly, almost to the point of total contempt and disdain, as though they had just committed a fraudulent act with heinous intent.

 

I actually find this rather surprising, considering that many of these were the exact same board members that used to espouse the honesty, integrity, knowledge, and sheer competence of Steve and West when they were both still working with CGC.

 

Now my post was in the core of your quote but it applied equally to CGC and CBCS. And I wasn't making excuses for them. I was stating what I strongly believe is happening. With different definitions of what is restoration vs conservation coming into play, the designations (Ext, Mod, Slight) could well change along with them. But ever since I started on these boards I have always maintained it makes no difference what you call it: restoration, conservation, whatever. A different term does not change what a book has been through. And a MUCH better understanding of what restoration is (including conservation) is sorely needed.

 

Agreed.

 

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

 

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

 

 

I certainly don't want to get involved in the "Steve fans vs haters" discussion. But if you now want to single out some negative posters you need to be fair and remember when his company was announced The Boards here were lit up with glowing comments about him, the positives far outweighing the negatives, so to single out a few naysayers now seems a bit unbalanced.

 

Anyway, isn't this what always happens when mom and dad get divorced and remarry!

 

 

[PovertyRow]

 

Anyway, isn't this what always happens when mom and dad get divorced and remarry!

 

 

Nice analogy. I, too don't want to go further. The actual restoration info coming in here is too interesting to risk.

[MrBedrock]

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, they are almost exclusively folks that didn't interact with CGC, Steve, or West when they started CGC, 3rd-party grading, and were not on the forum at all prior to Steve leaving out on his own and then to Heritage. Back when CGC interacted with us peons...

 

+ 1 ....... Steve, as busy as he was while with CGC, took the time to post in the forums and I found that admirable. There was no CGC before Steve. Rather than look down on those who are looking down on him, I prefer to chalk it up to ignorance and their never having had the chance to get to know him. He and West are both good peeps.... and I miss them both around here. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

What I posted above was an agreement with what had already been posted. Somehow it got extracted as if i were the originator of the idea. And say what you want, there has been a noticeable snark level when referring to CBCS (which is also snark at Steve and West) by folks who were here back in the day. As a friend of Steve for 17 years it bothers me.

 

So below is the original:

 

 

CGC 9.2 Extensive holder to 9.4 Moderate holder still has me thinking

 

 

Resto standards have changed but so have resto designation standards. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that old book graded under CGC's old grading standards and the new book under the updated resto designations?

 

Yes old label 9.2 E to new 9.4 M

 

It may be a difference in the perception of "conservation" vs "restoration". That is, techniques now deemed conservation were at one time included in restoration. So with those conservation techniques out of the restoration picture, that could account for a bump down as in Ext to Mod or Mod to Sl.

 

Great point. I might even think that makes sence.

 

It might make Sense

 

Wow, it's simply amazing how we rationalize and try to look for reasons to give CGC the benefit of the doubt when we see inconsistencies or any questions in terms of their grading or restoration rating determinations. Yes indeed, it must be their "new and improved" techniques or more accurate re-definitions.

 

Yet, when we see any inconsistencies or questions with respect to grading or restoration rating issues from the other company, a large number of the board members here immediately accuse them of gross incompetency or what have you. And seemingly, almost to the point of total contempt and disdain, as though they had just committed a fraudulent act with heinous intent.

 

I actually find this rather surprising, considering that many of these were the exact same board members that used to espouse the honesty, integrity, knowledge, and sheer competence of Steve and West when they were both still working with CGC.

 

Now my post was in the core of your quote but it applied equally to CGC and CBCS. And I wasn't making excuses for them. I was stating what I strongly believe is happening. With different definitions of what is restoration vs conservation coming into play, the designations (Ext, Mod, Slight) could well change along with them. But ever since I started on these boards I have always maintained it makes no difference what you call it: restoration, conservation, whatever. A different term does not change what a book has been through. And a MUCH better understanding of what restoration is (including conservation) is sorely needed.

 

Agreed.

 

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

 

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

 

 

I certainly don't want to get involved in the "Steve fans vs haters" discussion. But if you now want to single out some negative posters you need to be fair and remember when his company was announced The Boards here were lit up with glowing comments about him, the positives far outweighing the negatives, so to single out a few naysayers now seems a bit unbalanced.

 

Anyway, isn't this what always happens when mom and dad get divorced and remarry!

 

Steve always loved a good nested quote. He was a champion scroller.

[lou_fine]

Wow, it's simply amazing how we rationalize and try to look for reasons to give CGC the benefit of the doubt when we see inconsistencies or any questions in terms of their grading or restoration rating determinations. Yes indeed, it must be their "new and improved" techniques or more accurate re-definitions.

 

Yet, when we see any inconsistencies or questions with respect to grading or restoration rating issues from the other company, a large number of the board members here immediately accuse them of gross incompetency or what have you. And seemingly, almost to the point of total contempt and disdain, as though they had just committed a fraudulent act with heinous intent.

 

I actually find this rather surprising, considering that many of these were the exact same board members that used to espouse the honesty, integrity, knowledge, and sheer competence of Steve and West when they were both still working with CGC.

 

I've noticed the same thing and have been confused how easily people can turn on Steve and West.It kind of sickens me.

 

There is only a small handful of people who speak negatively about them and from what I remember they are relatively new here if I'm not mistaken.

 

Indeed, they are almost exclusively folks that didn't interact with CGC, Steve, or West when they started CGC and the comic book 3rd-party grading industry. Too bad they were not on the forum at all prior to Steve leaving out on his own and then to Heritage, back when CGC interacted with us common folks...

 

And say what you want, there has been a noticeable snark level when referring to CBCS (which is also snark at Steve and West) by folks who were here back in the day. As a friend of Steve for 17 years it bothers me.

 

As PovertyRow has correctly pointed out, it is not negative comments spoken directly about Steve and West. They are really more like negative comments about the other company and their finished product, which in my eyes is really an indirect shot at both Steve and West.

 

Yes, the snarkiness and sarcasm is very evident and there is also a very definite feeling of condescension when talking about the other company and their graded books. It's almost a sense of outright amateurism, especially when they are compared to the 3rd grading company. Although most of these are indeed from the newer members, there are also quite a bit coming from some of the older members here.

 

Everybody's entitled to their opinion, although it's a bit of a surprise how quickly they can change sometime. No worries about the Mods closing down this thread though, since we are saying bad things about the competition here, as opposed to good things.

[MrBedrock]

 

As PovertyRow has correctly pointed out, it is not negative comments spoken directly about Steve and West. They are really more like negative comments about the other company and their finished product, which in my eyes is really an indirect shot at both Steve and West.

 

Yes, the snarkiness and sarcasm is very evident and there is also a very definite feeling of condescension when talking about the other company and their graded books. It's almost a sense of outright amateurism, especially when they are compared to the 3rd grading company. Although most of these are indeed from the newer members, there are also quite a bit coming from some of the older members here.

 

Everybody's entitled to their opinion, although it's a bit of a surprise how quickly they can change sometime. No worries about the Mods closing down this thread though, since we are saying bad things about the competition here, as opposed to good things.

I'll be the first to admit I've made a comments in regard to CBCS and this issue that you might consider snarky. The advantages and disadvantages of third party grading have been the most debated issue in the hobby for the last two decades. The clear cut advantage that most all of us agree on is that restoration detection is the biggest benefit. From the time that Steve and West were at CGC Chris Friesen has been employed solely to spot resto. Matt Nelson's company was later bought by CGC and his restoration knowledge is at their employ. Two resto experts checking and certifying books. Who does CBCS have on staff for resto detection? Steve and West. Steve was a collector/dealer prior to working at CGC. West was, and is, a collector. Neither of them are resto experts. I am sure they have each absorbed some knowledge over the years. But they are not experts. I have been a dealer for longer than either of them. I think I am pretty good at spotting resto. But with all the new techniques available to restorers I could never say with any certainty that something hasn't been touched. That is why I have the return policies in place that I do. This is a thread about a restoration issue and CBCS's handling of the grading of these books. Steve and West are the people signing off on those grades. If they are being questioned about that maybe you shouldn't consider it as snarky.

[burntboy]

Looking at a comic through a slab and having it to touch and feel are not even something to be compared.

 

Totally agree with this. It is central to my concern with the whole topic. If a restorer is slathering on fixatives over color to create a sheen under which all defects and any hint of originality are hidden, and the graders allow that book into a holder with a high number on it because it looks nice, then whoever cracks it out will be sorely disappointed when they touch and feel a comic that is stiff as a board.

 

If the book has an unnatural feel that should be penalized in a perfect world

 

+1

 

Yes, the book should clearly be graded from both a visual and touch or feel point of view.

 

If it feels stiff and unnatural and unlike the original cover or interiors, then it should clearly be penalized from a grading point of view.

 

If the extensive restoration work was so superbly done that the entire book (both exterior cover and interior pages) felt natural and completely indistinguishable from the original and also had the visual appearance of a 9.8 NM/Mint book, then I would have no problem with it receiving an Extensive Restored 9.8 graded label.

 

This should be enough information to allow all bidders to make their own determination as to their valuation of the book based upon the level of restoration on the book. After all, the Extensive Restored label should be telling you something already.

 

I haven't finished reading this entire thread yet, but after about 10 pages, I find these comments to be the most reasonable yet. IMHO of course...

[bluechip]

Look at my bottom staple images... The yellow pics. There are many areas that "look" the same but, having been painted freehand, or traced, are not exactly perfect. But, in my limited exposure to extensively restored covers, I don't think their attention to detail is much different from other restorers efforts in perfectly matching the printed line work. I don't think anybody has really cared or expected perfect fidelity in every painted detail.. But the Myers overall impressive quality actually make you expect it.

 

On this Tec 33, look at the lite blue water areas and the darker orange stone shadows around the black lines. Very little of these areas are perfectly copied. I wonder if the undercoating etc that CGC wasn't fond of is just too thick to use a light box for tracing??

 

Staring at both images is actually like one of those games where you need to find tiny differences!

 

People sometimes forget that there is a difference between a "restoration," a "recreation" and an "homage."

 

[lou_fine]

 

As PovertyRow has correctly pointed out, it is not negative comments spoken directly about Steve and West. They are really more like negative comments about the other company and their finished product, which in my eyes is really an indirect shot at both Steve and West.

 

Yes, the snarkiness and sarcasm is very evident and there is also a very definite feeling of condescension when talking about the other company and their graded books. It's almost a sense of outright amateurism, especially when they are compared to the 3rd grading company. Although most of these are indeed from the newer members, there are also quite a bit coming from some of the older members here.

 

Everybody's entitled to their opinion, although it's a bit of a surprise how quickly they can change sometime. No worries about the Mods closing down this thread though, since we are saying bad things about the competition here, as opposed to good things.

I'll be the first to admit I've made a comments in regard to CBCS and this issue that you might consider snarky. The advantages and disadvantages of third party grading have been the most debated issue in the hobby for the last two decades. The clear cut advantage that most all of us agree on is that restoration detection is the biggest benefit. From the time that Steve and West were at CGC Chris Friesen has been employed solely to spot resto. Matt Nelson's company was later bought by CGC and his restoration knowledge is at their employ. Two resto experts checking and certifying books. Who does CBCS have on staff for resto detection? Steve and West. Steve was a collector/dealer prior to working at CGC. West was, and is, a collector. Neither of them are resto experts. I am sure they have each absorbed some knowledge over the years. But they are not experts. I have been a dealer for longer than either of them. I think I am pretty good at spotting resto. But with all the new techniques available to restorers I could never say with any certainty that something hasn't been touched. That is why I have the return policies in place that I do. This is a thread about a restoration issue and CBCS's handling of the grading of these books. Steve and West are the people signing off on those grades. If they are being questioned about that maybe you shouldn't consider it as snarky.

 

No, my comments were not just limited to the restoration issue, but really more to do with the grading issue as a whole.

 

The general tone seems to be that their grading is nowhere up to par with CGC and as a result, their product is clearly inferior to CGC. Personally, I believe it is much easier to spot grading errors if you magnify a scan to the nth degree and spend a long time going over every little bit of detail on the covers.

 

I doubt the graders have that much time to spend on every single book and that is why grading errors are bound to occur from both companies. It just depends if the number and degree of the errors are within acceptable limits.

 

Actually, I don't have a problem with board members pointing out obvious grading errors here and feel that it's more positive than negative, it's just that I don't feel there is any need for some of the apparent condescending commentary which seems to follow afterwards.

 

 

[goldust40]

Looking at a comic through a slab and having it to touch and feel are not even something to be compared.

 

Totally agree with this. It is central to my concern with the whole topic. If a restorer is slathering on fixatives over color to create a sheen under which all defects and any hint of originality are hidden, and the graders allow that book into a holder with a high number on it because it looks nice, then whoever cracks it out will be sorely disappointed when they touch and feel a comic that is stiff as a board.

 

If the book has an unnatural feel that should be penalized in a perfect world

 

+1

 

Yes, the book should clearly be graded from both a visual and touch or feel point of view.

 

If it feels stiff and unnatural and unlike the original cover or interiors, then it should clearly be penalized from a grading point of view.

 

If the extensive restoration work was so superbly done that the entire book (both exterior cover and interior pages) felt natural and completely indistinguishable from the original and also had the visual appearance of a 9.8 NM/Mint book, then I would have no problem with it receiving an Extensive Restored 9.8 graded label.

 

This should be enough information to allow all bidders to make their own determination as to their valuation of the book based upon the level of restoration on the book. After all, the Extensive Restored label should be telling you something already.

 

I haven't finished reading this entire thread yet, but after about 10 pages, I find these comments to be the most reasonable yet. IMHO of course...

[rjpb]

Reading through this thread I'm looking forward to the day soon, when I purchase facsimiles of pricey books that look near identical to the original to the naked eye, and only cost 10 or 20 bucks apiece. The entire pre-Robin run of Batman in Detective in high grade for a couple hundred dollars or less. Just spritz the air with a little benzene and vinegar when leafing through them, and the Golden Age experience is complete.

[Primetime]

Reading through this thread I'm looking forward to the day soon, when I purchase facsimiles of pricey books that look near identical to the original to the naked eye, and only cost 10 or 20 bucks apiece. The entire pre-Robin run of Batman in Detective in high grade for a couple hundred dollars or less. Just spritz the air with a little benzene and vinegar when leafing through them, and the Golden Age experience is complete.

[PovertyRow]

From the time that Steve and West were at CGC Chris Friesen has been employed solely to spot resto. Matt Nelson's company was later bought by CGC and his restoration knowledge is at their employ. Two resto experts checking and certifying books.

 

As regards Chris F, he had left CGC and is now back as a "Consultant" but I cannot find anything outlining his responsibilities. Paul L. is currently listed as the Primary Grader and Restoration Detection Specialist. So it is hard to figure out, based on published info, the hierarchy.

[batman_fan]

 

As PovertyRow has correctly pointed out, it is not negative comments spoken directly about Steve and West. They are really more like negative comments about the other company and their finished product, which in my eyes is really an indirect shot at both Steve and West.

 

Yes, the snarkiness and sarcasm is very evident and there is also a very definite feeling of condescension when talking about the other company and their graded books. It's almost a sense of outright amateurism, especially when they are compared to the 3rd grading company. Although most of these are indeed from the newer members, there are also quite a bit coming from some of the older members here.

 

Everybody's entitled to their opinion, although it's a bit of a surprise how quickly they can change sometime. No worries about the Mods closing down this thread though, since we are saying bad things about the competition here, as opposed to good things.

I'll be the first to admit I've made a comments in regard to CBCS and this issue that you might consider snarky. The advantages and disadvantages of third party grading have been the most debated issue in the hobby for the last two decades. The clear cut advantage that most all of us agree on is that restoration detection is the biggest benefit. From the time that Steve and West were at CGC Chris Friesen has been employed solely to spot resto. Matt Nelson's company was later bought by CGC and his restoration knowledge is at their employ. Two resto experts checking and certifying books. Who does CBCS have on staff for resto detection? Steve and West. Steve was a collector/dealer prior to working at CGC. West was, and is, a collector. Neither of them are resto experts. I am sure they have each absorbed some knowledge over the years. But they are not experts. I have been a dealer for longer than either of them. I think I am pretty good at spotting resto. But with all the new techniques available to restorers I could never say with any certainty that something hasn't been touched. That is why I have the return policies in place that I do. This is a thread about a restoration issue and CBCS's handling of the grading of these books. Steve and West are the people signing off on those grades. If they are being questioned about that maybe you shouldn't consider it as snarky.

 

Nicely said Mr B.

 

[lou_fine]

So where does this thread leave us?

 

- The Meyers game changer looks like it has destroyed the Ext (P) books. Not many will be eager to sink big money into this plod category. It has become way to uncertain and the ext category is now way too broad.

 

- this new reality will force CGC once again to reevaluate their plod grafing system. This must come as a response to how the Ext category has been manipulated into new territory.

 

Just my 2 c

 

Not exactly sure why you would think this way.

 

After all, all of the CPR and other undisclosed manipulated work that are being done on books nowadays have not destroyed the UHG market for unrestored books. Instead, this market seems to still be flourishing and in fact, even leading the way upwards with big money being poured in for highest graded copies. Especially surprising since nobody can tell if the book in question was meticulously stored and saved over long decades or whether it was simply manipulated overnight in a restoration lab to obtain this UHG condition. It doesn't really seem to matter how it was achieved, as long as it has the big number on the top left corner of the slab.

 

So, why would it be any different with the EP restored books. Even more so in this case, when you have disclosure and you can much more readily determine what has been done to the book. Potential buyers will now have the information to know whether it is the old traditional form of EP restoration or rather it is this apparent new form of EP restoration. They will have the necessary information to make a more fully informed purchasing decision on whether they want to buy the book or not.

 

Or is it because we will have disclosure with this type of EP work and this is the factor that will destroy this part of the marketplace. I had always thought that lack of disclosure, uncertainty, and manipulation would hurt any marketplace, but the comic book marketplace appears to be above all this, as evident by the flourishing UHG unrestored marketplace.

 

I guess it's better not to know sometimes.

 

[burntboy]

Looking at a comic through a slab and having it to touch and feel are not even something to be compared.

 

Totally agree with this. It is central to my concern with the whole topic. If a restorer is slathering on fixatives over color to create a sheen under which all defects and any hint of originality are hidden, and the graders allow that book into a holder with a high number on it because it looks nice, then whoever cracks it out will be sorely disappointed when they touch and feel a comic that is stiff as a board.

 

If the book has an unnatural feel that should be penalized in a perfect world

 

+1

 

Yes, the book should clearly be graded from both a visual and touch or feel point of view.

 

If it feels stiff and unnatural and unlike the original cover or interiors, then it should clearly be penalized from a grading point of view.

 

If the extensive restoration work was so superbly done that the entire book (both exterior cover and interior pages) felt natural and completely indistinguishable from the original and also had the visual appearance of a 9.8 NM/Mint book, then I would have no problem with it receiving an Extensive Restored 9.8 graded label.

 

This should be enough information to allow all bidders to make their own determination as to their valuation of the book based upon the level of restoration on the book. After all, the Extensive Restored label should be telling you something already.

 

I haven't finished reading this entire thread yet, but after about 10 pages, I find these comments to be the most reasonable yet. IMHO of course...

 

Hi Andy!!! (Captain Red Pants)

[Sqeggs]

I'll be the first to admit I've made a comments in regard to CBCS and this issue that you might consider snarky. The advantages and disadvantages of third party grading have been the most debated issue in the hobby for the last two decades. The clear cut advantage that most all of us agree on is that restoration detection is the biggest benefit. From the time that Steve and West were at CGC Chris Friesen has been employed solely to spot resto. Matt Nelson's company was later bought by CGC and his restoration knowledge is at their employ. Two resto experts checking and certifying books. Who does CBCS have on staff for resto detection? Steve and West. Steve was a collector/dealer prior to working at CGC. West was, and is, a collector. Neither of them are resto experts. I am sure they have each absorbed some knowledge over the years. But they are not experts. I have been a dealer for longer than either of them. I think I am pretty good at spotting resto. But with all the new techniques available to restorers I could never say with any certainty that something hasn't been touched. That is why I have the return policies in place that I do. This is a thread about a restoration issue and CBCS's handling of the grading of these books. Steve and West are the people signing off on those grades. If they are being questioned about that maybe you shouldn't consider it as snarky.

 

Possible that the other two people listed as graders on their site have expertise in resto detection? I don't know them; just a thought.

[VintageComics]

 

I'm not sure what their exact procedure is but all graders from what I understand learn to detect restoration. Steve B told me that years ago when he was still with CGC. Was Frieseon with CGC in the beginning?