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There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

Started by Jaydogrules,

895 posts in this topic

Mr. 10%

Mr. 10%

Posted
Posted
Guess it just a matter of time before we se a HG Tec 27 / Action 1 as a cloned extensive.

 

Whatl it go fer ... ?

Just crossed my mind. So I throw it out here without further ado.

 

 

I saw 10% lol lol lol

 

Nah. Easily six figs ...

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woowoo

woowoo

Posted
Posted
Guess it just a matter of time before we se a HG Tec 27 / Action 1 as a cloned extensive.

 

Whatl it go fer ... ?

Just crossed my mind. So I throw it out here without further ado.

 

 

I saw 10% lol lol lol

 

Nah. Easily six figs ...

 

Thats 10% of the unrestored price. hm

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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted
There are many slight imperfectly "traced" or recreated lines and things. But isn't this the case for all extensive restoration? I don't think anybody got their book back from any of the known high end restorers and got mad that the Bob Kane sig was a sloppy forgery... Or some line work wasn't perfect. These were lower grade books to begin with so since they look so much better restored, nobody really cared about such flaws unless they were unsightly.

 

But, with this new technique that goes so far to looking perfect (if a bit too plastic like a recreation) the real question should be should these flaws still exist in these grades? , or should this level of restoration demand a perfectly reproduced rendition of ALL graphic elements presented exactly the same as on the original printed comic books?

 

In other words, now that they have taken restoration up a notch or two. Should a 9.6 or 9.8 grade be unachievable WITHOUT perfect replication of the artwork?

 

Bedrock pointed out the liberties taken on the back of the Donald Duck cover. I noticed that the art near the spine of the Tec 43 was widened.. Neither of these books now look like the originals in ways beyond a shaky hand recreating Kane's sig, or some missing lines in the art. But these weren't obvious or unsightly blemishes...

 

The question for the graders if not the hobby now is how close to the original should be reflected in the grade... or should be it be at this point where it's now possible to make the colors etc so realistic.

 

 

+1

 

My point exactly as per my post below from the other night:

 

Since this type of restoration work always involved the recreation of some of the artwork, it is probably not realistic to expect an 100% match to all of the exact printed details of the original unrestored copy. This really depends on the artistic ability of the restorers who are humans after all, to try to exactly duplicate the printing details of a printing press machine. I personally believe a 100% match would be a physical impossibility.

 

I guess the real question now is whether these normal and expected variations in the recreated artwork as compared to the original should be treated as a defect for condition grading purposes or simply accepted within reasonable limits (i.e. no stick figures here lol ) as part and parcel of the EP restoration designation? If they are to be treated as a defect for condition grading purposes, should there simply be a ceiling on how high a EP restored book with recreated artwork can go or should we expect the graders to spend hours going over magnified scans to determine the exact minute variations from the original printed artwork?

 

 

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I believe that the Extensive Restoration involving recreated artwork already takes into account that there will not be an exact 100% match to the original printed artwork. Even with the old traditional EP restored books and this is one of the main reasons why they have generally been referred to as "frankenboooks".

 

It is quite possible that any slightly mismatched artwork on EP restored books (both the Meyers and the old traditional EP restored books) does not affect the condition grading unless the mismatch artwork is blatant, obvious, and poorly done. hm

 

I guess we'll never know, however, since both grading standards and restoration ratings are not published as they are considered to be proprietary knowledge of the grading companies. :pullhair:

 

 

 

 

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Aman619

Aman619

Posted
Posted

I agree, and Im thinking that, given the advances in techniques, that grading SHOULD reward for perfect recreation, and deduct for sloppier, or less perfect work, and for any changes made on purpose for whatever reason.

 

Of course "grade the book in front of us" will make this moot. Therefore I would suggest a notebook of printouts of high grade examples of - say - 50 major keys that are most often "frankened". CGC ought to be able to have that prepared without too much trouble. (IF of course what we are saying DOES factor into the grading.) Thats at most a couple of FUN hours spent at HA.com, and a color printer!

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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted
There are many slight imperfectly "traced" or recreated lines and things. But isn't this the case for all extensive restoration? I don't think anybody got their book back from any of the known high end restorers and got mad that the Bob Kane sig was a sloppy forgery... Or some line work wasn't perfect. These were lower grade books to begin with so since they look so much better restored, nobody really cared about such flaws unless they were unsightly.

 

But, with this new technique that goes so far to looking perfect (if a bit too plastic like a recreation) the real question should be should these flaws still exist in these grades? , or should this level of restoration demand a perfectly reproduced rendition of ALL graphic elements presented exactly the same as on the original printed comic books?

 

In other words, now that they have taken restoration up a notch or two. Should a 9.6 or 9.8 grade be unachievable WITHOUT perfect replication of the artwork?

 

Bedrock pointed out the liberties taken on the back of the Donald Duck cover. I noticed that the art near the spine of the Tec 43 was widened.. Neither of these books now look like the originals in ways beyond a shaky hand recreating Kane's sig, or some missing lines in the art. But these weren't obvious or unsightly blemishes...

 

The question for the graders if not the hobby now is how close to the original should be reflected in the grade... or should be it be at this point where it's now possible to make the colors etc so realistic.

 

 

 

 

So many questions it boggles my mind.

 

I can see now why CGC was debating whether or not to even continue grading these books. Why put their reputation and discretion on the line just to make some over zealous restore-ers (sic) and sellers a bunch of extra money with an artificially high grade that really doesn't mean anything? These books look great in slabs so why not just slab them and give them the NG designation they truly deserve and leave it at that since they are essentially just eye candy ? Except in this case it will stand for "Not Grade-able".

 

-J.

 

Did I missed a post from Matt Nelson or CGC on this particular topic? ???

 

As far as I can tell, nowhere in any of his 3 posts, did Matt mentioned anything or even broached the subject of imperfections or inaccuracies in the recreation of the artwork. His main concerns as to why they would be ungradeable seem to revolve around 3 issues, as follows:

 

1) Irreversibility and archival nature of the materials being used, which the Meyers apparently claimed have now been addressed;

2) Excessive use of color touch and the type of glossing agent being used which would create an unnatural look and feel to the book, another issue which the Meyers also claimed to have now been addressed; and

3) To the point that it would be very difficult to distinguish between what was original from what was recreated.

 

Absolutely no mention at all about poorly or inaccurately recreated artwork. My bet is that if you took traditional EP restored frankenbooks from other restorers and magnify their images to the nth degree, you will also see mismatched artwork to the same extent as the Meyers, if not even worst.

 

As a result, I strongly doubt they would give the NG designation to EP restored books with very slight mismatched artwork, because if they did, all of the EP restored frankenbooks, including the ones from the other traditional restorers and even CCS itself would end up in NG designated slabs. hm

 

 

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
I agree, and Im thinking that, given the advances in techniques, that grading SHOULD reward for perfect recreation, and deduct for sloppier, or less perfect work, and for any changes made on purpose for whatever reason.

 

Of course "grade the book in front of us" will make this moot. Therefore I would suggest a notebook of printouts of high grade examples of - say - 50 major keys that are most often "frankened". CGC ought to be able to have that prepared without too much trouble. (IF of course what we are saying DOES factor into the grading.) Thats at most a couple of FUN hours spent at HA.com, and a color printer!

 

Aman, you're so old school.

 

How about an assortment of reference scans accessible from the grader's screen, which is likeli sitting right in front of them.

 

;)

 

Or a photo recognition system which is instantaneous.

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Aman619

Aman619

Posted
Posted
I agree, and Im thinking that, given the advances in techniques, that grading SHOULD reward for perfect recreation, and deduct for sloppier, or less perfect work, and for any changes made on purpose for whatever reason.

 

Of course "grade the book in front of us" will make this moot. Therefore I would suggest a notebook of printouts of high grade examples of - say - 50 major keys that are most often "frankened". CGC ought to be able to have that prepared without too much trouble. (IF of course what we are saying DOES factor into the grading.) Thats at most a couple of FUN hours spent at HA.com, and a color printer!

 

Aman, you're so old school.

 

How about an assortment of reference scans accessible from the grader's screen, which is likeli sitting right in front of them.

 

;)

 

Or a photo recognition system which is instantaneous.

 

There are many ways we could suggest CGC employ to do their jobs better as we see it. But from their perspective, any extra research that delays the grading isn't productive. Like sitting down and googling cover scans. That's why I suggested a one time fix basically a few hours worth, resulting in a glossary of visual reference to employ in verifying accuracy in reprinting. Heck, the pre graders could have an intern (though I doubt they hire interns for security reasons) get the printout ready with the book in its jacket for the grader. Or email a PDF ahead of time to him so it a single click away.

 

Bottom line however is whether accuracy even matters to the grade. CGC knows what they are doing, and they are very professional about it. if this were considered a necessary step, they'd already be doing it.

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path4play

path4play

Posted
Posted

I'm actually starting to like the CGC color label designation between blue, blue/purple and purple. I know it's not like the buyer doesn't understand the extensive restoration, but I think it's more than fair to bucket the differences at a glance.

 

Here is an interesting suggestion, for professional, how about mentioning the restorers name on the label - like a signature of the work of art? If it’s unknown, then it gets amateur?

 

 

A restored 9.6 CBCS Batman 1 popped up on ComicConnect. Is this an IGB book?

 

Quite certainly.

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gino2paulus2

gino2paulus2

Posted
Posted
A restored 9.6 CBCS Batman 1 popped up on ComicConnect. Is this an IGB book?

 

Quite certainly.

 

They must have turned the brightness and color saturation WAAAAAY up on that one. It looks like it is GLOWING :eek: I reckon I don't like it...looks fake to me. 2c

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Sqeggs

Sqeggs

Posted
Posted
Fortunately, CGC does have a limit on extensive restoration...

 

Action #7

 

Interesting, but on that one the cover is a photocopy. My guess is that CBCS would also give that book an NG.

 

Question is: Where short of a photocopy cover would either company draw the line? hm

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