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There's a Restored 9.4 Tec 33 Blowing up on Ebay

Started by Jaydogrules,

895 posts in this topic

seanfingh

seanfingh

Posted
Posted
Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

 

Out of curiosuty how do you know as you already mentioned you have never actually had one to hand etc?

 

Like I said before these type of comments unless backed up by evidence or 1st hand experience are a slippery slope. No disrespect MrBedrock but until you personally (as you seem to have a decent grasp of restoration methods) have inspected one of the comics yourself I would always advise to not try and belittle someone's work until you have all the answers to these questions displayed infront of you.

 

Again always hard to have a discussion through a screen without being able to convey actual tone. So once again no disrespect to anyone just think too many people are too quick to be negative nowadays.

 

 

 

 

You are misremembering what Richard said. Bluechip said he had never seen one. Richard said he has held them, seen them through the cases and spoken to both Matt Nelson and Steve Borock about them.

 

I for one am very interested in Richard's opinion on these books, and I don't appreciate you shouting him down, regardless of how "politely" you are doing so.

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*matterus023*

*matterus023*

Posted
Posted

I am not shouting him down. Looking at a comic through a slab and having it to touch and feel are not even something to be compared. All my points I have made are fair

 

I don't appreciate you being funny with me. Maybe I don't have enough posts next to my name for my thoughts/opinions to be valid. You started this change in tone Sean not me

 

I have given my thoughts on it but clearly it will get out of hand now so I will leave others to their own opinions and ideas which is fine.

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MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted
Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

 

Out of curiosuty how do you know as you already mentioned you have never actually had one to hand etc?

 

Like I said before these type of comments unless backed up by evidence or 1st hand experience are a slippery slope. No disrespect MrBedrock but until you personally (as you seem to have a decent grasp of restoration methods) have inspected one of the comics yourself I would always advise to not try and belittle someone's work until you have all the answers to these questions displayed infront of you.

 

Again always hard to have a discussion through a screen without being able to convey actual tone. So once again no disrespect to anyone just think too many people are too quick to be negative nowadays.

 

 

 

Two way street, how can you know if what I am saying is true or not if you haven't seen, held, or talked to someone who has seen or held one. If you have some knowledge of this please enlighten us. If I am wrong with anything I have posted so far please dispute it or prove otherwise. Actually that should go without saying. On these boards if someone can dispute someone else they always will. Since no one has disputed anything thus far I think I'm on pretty firm footing. No disrespect to you, but if you know something I'd love to hear it.

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*matterus023*

*matterus023*

Posted
Posted

Mr Bedrock like I said I genuinley have no issues with anyone and all input is great as it all adds to the discussion. As you have pointed out can't say that what you have said is wrong. Just clearly pointing out, that without holding one in your hand and inspecting it you can't really say what methods were used.

 

I would imagine it would be tough even for a professional restorer to be able to accurately say how the whole process went from start to finish including chemicals used etc etc

 

I don't need to dispute someone's theroies and/or chinesewhispers is what I am saying. I am sure you know your stuff and much much more than I do, but using someone elses's words who may have had one to hand (who lets be honest is a rival competitor) for me is just not evidence of any kind.

 

But just my thoughts and no one elses.

 

p.s Sean I have dealt with you before and all pleasant transactions. Sorry if spoke out of turn and offended you

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MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted
Looking at a comic through a slab and having it to touch and feel are not even something to be compared.

Totally agree with this. It is central to my concern with the whole topic. If a restorer is slathering on fixatives over color to create a sheen under which all defects and any hint of originality are hidden, and the graders allow that book into a holder with a high number on it because it looks nice, then whoever cracks it out will be sorely disappointed when they touch and feel a comic that is stiff as a board.

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woowoo

woowoo

Posted
Posted

Mr Bedrock i want to see pics of your high end books or i will dispute any of your post. I dont know you but have been around since the late 70s in the SF area and i have seen these post to know that you are a top Dog. All kidding aside i do respect your words and your opinion and concerns.

I just thought of it why has big dog Dave M not in on this thread.

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*matterus023*

*matterus023*

Posted
Posted
I remember a pep 22 selling on comicconnect that was a cgc 9.4 extensive.

 

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=611265

 

Would be interesting if it was the same restorer as then cgc would seem that they are or at least were happy to grade for him

 

Almost certainly not the same restorer/type of restoration.

 

What makes you think this?

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Sqeggs

Sqeggs

Posted
Posted
Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

 

Out of curiosuty how do you know as you already mentioned you have never actually had one to hand etc?

 

Like I said before these type of comments unless backed up by evidence or 1st hand experience are a slippery slope. No disrespect MrBedrock but until you personally (as you seem to have a decent grasp of restoration methods) have inspected one of the comics yourself I would always advise to not try and belittle someone's work until you have all the answers to these questions displayed infront of you.

 

Again always hard to have a discussion through a screen without being able to convey actual tone. So once again no disrespect to anyone just think too many people are too quick to be negative nowadays.

 

 

 

 

Mattreus23 can you tell us if you've had any books restored this way, held one in your hands or dealt with the seller?

 

If so, any first hand knowledge would be interesting/helpful and may shed light on things or clear up some concerns.

 

I know you've posted a number of WTB threads looking for already restored (no trimming) GA (BAT 1, TEC 31, CAP 1, PEP 22 etc.) and SA keys (Hulk 1 and AF15) so I figured it was possible you may have gone down this road, considered it or crossed path with the restorer.

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Not wanting to pile on here ... but was there an answer to this question?

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woowoo

woowoo

Posted
Posted
Couldn't agree more. Need someone on here to buy one and let us all come over for a coffee and feel :-)

 

We all have done some bad bad deals but nobody here wants to buy one i think .lets all go in on one that would be cheap. :censored:

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*matterus023*

*matterus023*

Posted
Posted
Originally his work was performed on silver age keys. Those books ended up with incredibly stiff covers due to his heavy use of fixatives. He has gradually reduced the amount so that the covers are a little less rigid but the comparison to the World's Best cardboard cover are pretty apt.

 

And so we are clear on my stance, I really have no problem with the work itself, other than the fact that its purpose is simply to improve appearances with no concern for originality. They are his books and he can paint them up however he wants to. My issue is more with the idea that the term "apparent grade" can be used by graders to mask the fact that they can't see the line between original and recreation. If that is the case then at some point what is to stop someone from completely recreating both interior and exterior of a book? What if a really proficient restorer were to completely bleach out a Detective 26 and recreate a Detective 27 from the cover and pages? With these extreme restoration jobs the grading companies must have some way to clearly quantify how much of a book is original and how much is recreation, whether done by leafcasting or by excessive color touch.

 

Out of curiosuty how do you know as you already mentioned you have never actually had one to hand etc?

 

Like I said before these type of comments unless backed up by evidence or 1st hand experience are a slippery slope. No disrespect MrBedrock but until you personally (as you seem to have a decent grasp of restoration methods) have inspected one of the comics yourself I would always advise to not try and belittle someone's work until you have all the answers to these questions displayed infront of you.

 

Again always hard to have a discussion through a screen without being able to convey actual tone. So once again no disrespect to anyone just think too many people are too quick to be negative nowadays.

 

 

 

 

Mattreus23 can you tell us if you've had any books restored this way, held one in your hands or dealt with the seller?

 

If so, any first hand knowledge would be interesting/helpful and may shed light on things or clear up some concerns.

 

I know you've posted a number of WTB threads looking for already restored (no trimming) GA (BAT 1, TEC 31, CAP 1, PEP 22 etc.) and SA keys (Hulk 1 and AF15) so I figured it was possible you may have gone down this road, considered it or crossed path with the restorer.

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Not wanting to pile on here ... but was there an answer to this question?

 

Yeah I mentioned I have never had one to hand. But I am not saying anything about their methods just saying that others who haven't had one to hand shouldn't really either. So pile away lol

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MrBedrock

MrBedrock

Posted
Posted
Mr Bedrock like I said I genuinley have no issues with anyone and all input is great as it all adds to the discussion. As you have pointed out can't say that what you have said is wrong. Just clearly pointing out, that without holding one in your hand and inspecting it you can't really say what methods were used.

I can say exactly what methods were used because both Matt Nelson and Steve Borock told me. And what they said is completely consistent with what I saw through the holder.

 

I would imagine it would be tough even for a professional restorer to be able to accurately say how the whole process went from start to finish including chemicals used etc etc

 

I don't need to dispute someone's theroies and/or chinesewhispers is what I am saying. I am sure you know your stuff and much much more than I do, but using someone elses's words who may have had one to hand (who lets be honest is a rival competitor) for me is just not evidence of any kind.

 

But just my thoughts and no one elses.

 

While Matt and CCS may be rivals of Meyers that really doesn't have anything to do with this conversation. We are talking about grades first. The techniques used are achieving grades which differ between companies. CBCS lists the things done so the amount of work isn't in dispute. The graders will tell you what was done so the the technique isn't in dispute. The painting and sheen on the covers can easily be seen through the holders so that isn't in dispute. So there aren't any theories here.

 

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Gotham Kid

Gotham Kid

Posted
Posted
The books seem to be doing pretty well at auction. Speaking for ComicConnect results.

 

#41 Peter your killing me. :frustrated:

 

(shrug)

 

I'm talking about the books that Meyers has worked on. I honestly think the Tec 33 and Hulk 1 shouldn't have been listed on eBay, much less at peak Xmas period. Bad timing.

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*matterus023*

*matterus023*

Posted
Posted
The books seem to be doing pretty well at auction. Speaking for ComicConnect results.

 

#41 Peter your killing me. :frustrated:

 

(shrug)

 

I'm talking about the books that Meyers has worked on. I honestly think the Tec 33 and Hulk 1 shouldn't have been listed on eBay, much less at peak Xmas period. Bad timing.

 

I was talking to a friend about this the other day. Would Christmas play a big part in listing an expensive comic. I suppose people are busy and maybe not as many eyes on it but for people who have deep pockets surely it can't be because of financial struggles over Christmas.

 

I have never looked into it but interesting point to bring up. Does it have a big effect with these expensive comics?

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