STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[drotto]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Exactly what I noted a moment ago. These are the folks that have any action figure, poster, book, t-shirt they can get their hands on.

But what percentage even of the hard core fans does this account for?  A few hundred very vocal people making multiple accounts on RT could do tons to skew a number.

[DiamondCityComics]

So this movie the critics are right it's the hard core fans that are bringing the score down.  For a movie like JL the critics are right it's the hard core fans bringing the score up.  Always an excuse.

[drotto]

8 minutes ago, DiamondCityComics said:

So this movie the critics are right it's the hard core fans that are bringing the score down.  For a movie like JL the critics are right it's the hard core fans bringing the score up.  Always an excuse.

Not what we are saying at all.  We are saying that Cinemascore and other fan based metrics are solid for the film.  These are market research based numbers.  Then you have voluntary fan based sites like RT and MC which generate a fan score, that are currently out of line with all the other metrics. 

 

With JL those metrics from CS, RT and the like seemed to track very closely across the board.  This has nothing to do with critics reviews, only pointing out audience based reviews. Here we have two outlier sites and both are open sites that allow unsolicited reviews and then compile those reviews. The sites that arguable do a better job to insure general audiences are included are showing good numbers.

Edited December 16, 2017 by drotto

[Bosco685]

29 minutes ago, drotto said:

But what percentage even of the hard core fans does this account for?  A few hundred very vocal people making multiple accounts on RT could do tons to skew a number.

There are currently 77,622 movie-goers that gave this an average 3.3/5.0 score. So for a confidence interval of 95%, which is from sampling if you pulled X individuals from this group there is a certain number that would give you a higher confidence in representing the overall population's characteristics and viewpoints, within a certain error range.

So to be 95% confident what drives this group (+ or - 1%), it would take 8,547 individuals.

That's a fairly large sample size.

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Bosco685

[Bosco685]

9 minutes ago, DiamondCityComics said:

So this movie the critics are right it's the hard core fans that are bringing the score down.  For a movie like JL the critics are right it's the hard core fans bringing the score up.  Always an excuse.

No, it's called statistical analysis. Not an excuse. You should update your terminology.

[DiamondCityComics]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

No, it's called statistical analysis. Not an excuse. You should update your terminology.

I have a degree in Mathematics so I do know what it is I just wonder if this is made up sometimes.  I bet if the next movie was of Darth Vader taking a dump on Luke these sites would have solid fan based metrics.  I'm going tonight so I'll decide for myself of course.

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, DiamondCityComics said:

I have a degree in Mathematics so I do know what it is I just wonder if this is made up sometimes.  I bet if the next movie was of Darth Vader taking a dump on Luke these sites would have solid fan based metrics.  I'm going tonight so I'll decide for myself of course.

Depends on the audience likes, and what audience they show that to. Some theaters would love to have THAT film in stock.

This audience would recommend it for the AVN.

[Bosco685]

12 minutes ago, DiamondCityComics said:

I have a degree in Mathematics so I do know what it is I just wonder if this is made up sometimes.  I bet if the next movie was of Darth Vader taking a dump on Luke these sites would have solid fan based metrics.  I'm going tonight so I'll decide for myself of course.

But on a more serious note, I'm not sure the audience responses are made up. It also can come down to WHO you sample. From your math background, you probably read the case study of why this situation occurred (who had phones at the time this phone-based sample took place).

That's what drotto and I were discussing here. If the CinemaScore team is sampling the general audience, they are looking at this movie with no preconceived expectations other than desiring entertainment. Hardcore Star Wars fans, on the other hand, probably stormed out of the theater pushing past the Cinemascore folks to run home and voice their dissatisfaction. So what better places than those that widely publicize scores concerning movies.

[drotto]

It is clear that this movie does a few massive things that allow for the altering of Force Mythology as well as the standing of the Skywalker family within that mythology.  From a corporate perspective, Disney is somewhat clearing the slate of what has happened before (similar to when they eliminated so much from canon after they acquired Lucasfilm).  From the studio standpoint this gives them tons more leeway going forward in creating new films.  From a hardcore fan perspective this, clearing the slate approach violates the basic core of what Star Wars means to them. Thus how they have approached this lies at the core of what has upset some fans.  Regardless of where you fall on this debate, here is what it seems has been altered fundamentally. 

Spoiler

 

1. The Jedi order and their interpretation of the force and their teachings about the force have been eliminated.  We now are only left with the original texts and have basically lost (for now) all the other Jedi knowledge.  A new generation now can potentially reinterpret those books.  So a potentially new force mythology could develop.

2. Eliminating the amassed Jedi knowledge and teachings greatly diminishes the importance of the past Jedi order, and the masters who came beforehand when it comes to future events.  The movie goes as far as Luke and Yoda endorsing the abandonment of the past and looking at the future.

3. The Skywalker family is no longer the core of the Star Wars universe.  The have basically been demoted, and the bloodline looks like it will be coming to an end.  No longer is a Skywalker destined to be the chosen one.  In fact by making Rey descended from nobodies and the stable boy a force user, the chosen one (if that mythology exist at all anymore) could be anyone.

4. The old generation is now fully gone. All old force users are now dead, this is in my opinion why Snoke was also killed at this point. Again this has basically reset the force, and fully passed the torch to a new and younger generation.

 

 

[apollobuzz]

Saw it last night.  Average movie at best.  The best parts involved Rey and Luke.  The rest was trash (that might be a bit harsh, but maybe not).  Much of the movie seemed dedicated/focused on putting cute creatures on the screen for the post-movie merchandising.

[apollobuzz]

Forgot to mention that I almost fell asleep a few times in the first two acts.  Third (final) act was better and what brought my "rating" up to average.

[Chip Cataldo]

 There's a "fan review" thread over at TheForce.net that you guys should check out. MASSIVE walls of text just eviscerating this film. It borders on insanity. People are PISSED because their headcanon wasn't put up on screen. 

[kdoginohio]

So,

Spoiler

why did Admiral Purple Hair wait so long to pull the hyper jump move after the first transport was hit? She was already on a suicide mission

. 

[jsilverjanet]

It’s interesting the arguments being made for the film, especially by those who found the movie ok.

 

[kdoginohio]

12 hours ago, drotto said:

I liked it, and the theater I was in was clapping and cheering on at least four separate occasions.  But I do understand the points the people seem to hate and a few of the themes that are brought out by it.

 

Here is what I think ticked people off.  Tell me if I am correct.  These are BIG spoilers do not read if you have not seen it.

  Hide contents

 

1. Snoke was a red herring you learned nothing about him, or how he came to power now he is dead.

2. Luke dies, and with the untimely death of Carrie Fisher nobody from the original cast is left.

3. Luke's death was alone and far away.  You never got the true Luke and Leia reunion, and he did not go down in a blaze of glory. We never get that reunion of the big three.

4. It signals the likely end of the Skywalker story.  Unless Kylo has an unknown kid or turns back to the light side, the bloodline will end. For those who think that Star Wars and Skywalker are inseparable this is a big problem.

5. Reys parents being nobody seems like a letdown. 

6. The symbolic turning over of the franchise to the next generation with the rebellion shown restating with children.  Us middle agers have been told that Star Wars is not ours anymore.

7. We really learn nothing about the First Order other than they are Nazi knock offs.  They have no back story.

 

 

as for #5.

Spoiler

Anakin's mom was a nobody.

 

[Rip]

43 minutes ago, Chip Cataldo said:

 There's a "fan review" thread over at TheForce.net that you guys should check out. MASSIVE walls of text just eviscerating this film. It borders on insanity. People are PISSED because their headcanon wasn't put up on screen. 

So far here is the only poll I see at theforce.net right now. Not great but not terrible either. Though there might be another poll on the site though.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/rate-the-last-jedi.50047269/

and here's reddit. Not terrible https://youpoll.me/3751/r

Edited December 16, 2017 by Rip

[drotto]

35 minutes ago, Chip Cataldo said:

 There's a "fan review" thread over at TheForce.net that you guys should check out. MASSIVE walls of text just eviscerating this film. It borders on insanity. People are PISSED because their headcanon wasn't put up on screen. 

Again these fans were looking for an expansion of the Star Wars lore especially when it came to the force and the Skywalker family.  They wanted to reinforce the story they he already expanded in their own heads, so were a lot of preconceived notions and desires there.  What they got went basically the totally opposite direction which diminished the importance of what came before and basically hit a soft reset on much of the underlying mythos.

Edited December 16, 2017 by drotto

[Artboy99]

11 hours ago, drotto said:

Sorry for yet another post but I had a question, and want to know if people think there was a middle ground.  Many people complained that TFA was just a rehash of ANH, and they were hoping that TLJ would be more original, and they were angry and let down of that movie because of the lack of originality and large reliance on nostalgia.  There were so many people praying that TLJ would not just be a rehash of ESB.  So assume that the studio did listen to those complaints to an extent when making the next film.  So now we get TLJ which arguably takes the franchise in a new direction, and takes some turns which people did not see coming, and are larger risks. The story in TLJ is more "original" or at least unexpected as compared to TFA.  And again fans get upset.

 

Was there a path that could have been taken?  Was there a middle ground? Are we just asking or expecting to much? Are movie makers just money grabbing evil people? Are fans just desperate to be pissed off whiners when they do not get their way?

 

 

write a great story ( not good but actually great ) that has characters the viewer will care about. How do you create characters your audience cares about? Emotion. Events that happen to the character need to make the viewer empathize, feel and emotionally connect otherwise the character becomes a "red shirt" guy that no one gives a rats about surrounded by fantastic ray blasts and flying ships all rendered wonderfully in CGI.

Example:

Early in the Star Wars movie (1977): Luke finds the Jawa vehicle destroyed and through his mentor Obi-Wan comes to realize the empire was looking for the droids his family bought. He became scared and raced home to find the only family he had left dead and smoldering. The great music swells to a crescendo, and Luke is stricken with grief. Then he returns to Obi-Wan and with emotion he claims "I want to come with you to Alderan, there is nothing here for me now. I want to learn to use the force and become a Jedi like my Father."

It is well crafted, and you care about Luke at this time in the movie because time was spent introducing him and his way of life as a farmer, but he is wanting more. The pacing is perfect.

 

[drotto]

5 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

write a great story ( not good but actually great ) that has characters the viewer will care about. How do you create characters your audience cares about? Emotion. Events that happen to the character need to make the viewer empathize, feel and emotionally connect otherwise the character becomes a "red shirt" guy that no one gives a rats about surrounded by fantastic ray blasts and flying ships all rendered wonderfully in CGI.

Example:

Early in the Star Wars movie (1977): Luke finds the Jawa vehicle destroyed and through his mentor Obi-Wan comes to realize the empire was looking for the droids his family bought. He became scared and raced home to find the only family he had left dead and smoldering. The great music swells to a crescendo, and Luke is stricken with grief. Then he returns to Obi-Wan and with emotion he claims "I want to come with you to Alderan, there is nothing here for me now. I want to learn to use the force and become a Jedi like my Father."

It is well crafted, and you care about Luke at this time in the movie because time was spent introducing him and his way of life as a farmer, but he is wanting more. The pacing is perfect.

 

Not saying it was as well done but you got this for Rey and Finn in TFA.  This movie from an arc perspective for Rey is a melding of ESB and ROTJ, and is similar in tone.  I felt Poe got a lot of good developement ( despite weaknesses in the sroryline), and Kylo's arc was the most solid and fleshed out.

 

The movie has clear flaws, especially when you start picking at it.  Just not truly understanding the visceral hate coming from a small but loud group. But a do see the points where it has arisen from.

[szav]

As much as it pains me to do this, as a lifelong Star Wars fan who saw the originals in the theater as a kid, I'm boycotting this one in the theater.  Seeing the reviews and reaction to it has reinforced this decision.

I'll watch it on Netflix for sure, but I can't in good conscience give money to them at the box office after sitting through what was in my opinion one of the worst movies I've ever seen in the Force Awakens.

(I'll spare my long rant because I've given it before)

Edited December 16, 2017 by szavisca