STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[fantastic_four]

44 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

50 minutes ago, The Brain said:

 

Is some of the criticism about this movie about the fact that

the "Jedi", and  "The Force" are no longer the sole 'special'

possession of the Jedi, and have been 'Awoken' among the

common  people????

I had not heard that criticism before. 

In the films and (really) in the novels, some people are born with "force sensitivity". Some are "force attuned", but none of them are Jedi unless they train as such. 

Like young Anakin who could build robots and pod racers, or young Rey who could fly any ship, fix anything, and even some other force sensitive character who never knew what it was but they were "lucky". 

Because no one is more "common" than the beginnings Rey and Anakin started from. So I don't know how accurate the criticism you mention would be. 

I'm not sure of it, but I think he means that Rian Johnson's intent was to change the idea that only some people are born with Force sensitivity and that instead anyone is capable of controlling the Force.  That's what Luke's speech to Rey about how the Force shouldn't be solely a thing used by the Jedi and the Sith seems to imply.  I've seen a number of reviewers assume that Rian Johnson was trying to change that, but I'm not sure that was his intent.  But I'm not clear on what Luke was trying to say, so I can't rule the idea out.

Certainly until now the canon has always been midi-chlorians give people control of the Force, and not everyone has enough midi-chlorians to do it.  Lucas thought about mentioning midi-chlorians that right from the start in Episode IV but didn't get it in until Phantom Menace.

[Rip]

1 hour ago, fett said:

remind me what Obi-Wan did to Darth Maul the last time they met? 

If you follow the cartoon he killed him on Tatooine while watching and protecting Luke.

What did Luke do after he chopped his fathers hand off? He tossed his lightsaber away in front of the emperor. What did Luke do at the end of TLJ? What did Obi Wan do at the end before he dies? 

For me anyway, I see a strong pattern here.

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Rip
hand

[kimik]

It looks like I am going to have to see this movie by myself this holiday break. My kids do not want to go since they have heard that it sucks at school (my son, who grew up on the Clone Wars cartoons, suggested we just wait for it to stream online), and my wife does not want to go either. 

[1Cool]

21 minutes ago, kimik said:

It looks like I am going to have to see this movie by myself this holiday break. My kids do not want to go since they have heard that it sucks at school (my son, who grew up on the Clone Wars cartoons, suggested we just wait for it to stream online), and my wife does not want to go either. 

Smart kid you have there

[fett]

29 minutes ago, Rip said:

If you follow the cartoon he killed him on Tatooine while watching and protecting Luke.

What did Luke do after he chopped his fathers hand off? He tossed his lightsaber away in front of the emperor. What did Luke do at the end of TLJ? What did Obi Wan do at the end before he dies? 

For me anyway, I see a strong pattern here.

 

Yes I was referring to Rebels. I was just saying Luke wouldn't have waited so long to enter the fray, especially with his friends and family in such danger. I don't think 30 years would take that much impulsiveness out of him. Even Yoda gives him the business about still not paying enough attention to the moment. 

[GM8]

2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

Ooooh...I can't agree with that. 

The one consistent thing in Luke's character from the first film to now has been his utter and complete consistency in his moral compass and his dedication to saving others, both strangers and family/loved ones.

Luke in Star Wars?...whiny kid who takes off and joins a bunch of strangers to save the galaxy.

Luke in ESB?....impetuous and rash and who takes off to save his friends and loved ones even though it puts him in mortal personal danger with incomplete skills and training.

Luke in ROTJ?....overconfident in the beginning but again willing to put himself directly in harm's way against overwhelming odds to save his friends and loved ones, and later in the film, utterly willing to sacrifice his own life in order to redeem a character shown only to be a mass-murdering-entirely-evil character. 

Luke in TLJ?...(click below)

  Hide contents

 

(chronologically) seriously considers murdering Han and Leia's son, his nephew, in his sleep because he sees darkness in him (guess he forgot about redeeming Vader), Flees civilization and the force even though the battle rages on for freedom, is informed that not only has Han been murdered by Luke's Nephew/Han's Son, and that his sister is in mortal danger and being hunted by the first order, not only flat out refuses to attempt and redeem his nephew (who he helped push towards the dark in the first place...probably costing Han his life) he also refuses to come to the aid of his sister who he consistently faced down all odds to come to the rescue of in all three original films. He's handed his father's Jedi lightsaber, the artifact that kicked off the entire saga, the symbol of Anakin's light side, the symbol of Luke's self-sacrificing faith in the light side that was shown to be correct in the redemption of, perhaps, the most evil character in the entire universe...and he tosses it away like it's meaningless?  

That doesn't even touch upon the fact that Luke's refusal to come to Leia's aid in her darkest hour is not even partially reversed until he's guilted into it by a child with a weekend-bootcamp's worth of Jedi training. 

 

This Luke is not the Luke we've seen. Nothing about his actions for the first 95% of the film in any way rings true to what he's demonstrated himself to be. 

I don't see anything in TLJ as unlike what a normal human being's life is like.  No one is the carbon copy of themselves as they were a child.  If so, what's the point?  We grow, change and have the world affect us.  If it makes us better people then so be it.  Sometimes it does the opposite.  I don't see anything Luke did in TLJ as being morally objectionable.  To the contrary he showed great heroism and sacrifice.  

[fett]

27 minutes ago, kimik said:

It looks like I am going to have to see this movie by myself this holiday break. My kids do not want to go since they have heard that it sucks at school (my son, who grew up on the Clone Wars cartoons, suggested we just wait for it to stream online), and my wife does not want to go either. 

tell him you heard that Luke Skywalker does something no other jedi has ever done.  

[comix4fun]

6 minutes ago, GM8 said:

I don't see anything in TLJ as unlike what a normal human being's life is like.  No one is the carbon copy of themselves as they were a child.  If so, what's the point?  We grow, change and have the world affect us.  If it makes us better people then so be it.  Sometimes it does the opposite.  I don't see anything Luke did in TLJ as being morally objectionable.  To the contrary he showed great heroism and sacrifice.  

People don't change to their core. They get a little older, a little fatter, a little more cynical but their core driving beliefs...the things that drive their entire ethos (like protecting those closest to them and throwing themselves into harms way without hesitation to do so) wouldn't, not for someone who had seen and done the things Luke did to that point.

The looks may change, but motivations don't. Luke wasn't a child in ROTJ and if facing off in mortal combat against your own father in a battle for your soul and his in the balance doesn't steel who you are as a person and what your moral compass is then I doubt anything that follows would cause it to be altered.

Johnson did ALL of that as a set up. Making Luke act like a complete emo-anus, even though it's ENTIRELY against his character, just so Johnson could give him a grand finale. The problem with the finale he gave him is what he had to strip away from Luke to get there. It all rang false. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by comix4fun

[I like pie]

RT score dropping even lower to 54%.

[Rip]

20 minutes ago, fett said:

Yes I was referring to Rebels. I was just saying Luke wouldn't have waited so long to enter the fray, especially with his friends and family in such danger. I don't think 30 years would take that much impulsiveness out of him. Even Yoda gives him the business about still not paying enough attention to the moment. 

Ah from the earlier comments I thought you were talking about Luke's end. But I get why this bothers people, at the same time I understand the people that don't have a problem with this. 

[comix4fun]

Luke would NEVER had let Leia wait, even a moment, knowing she was in danger. It was a cheap, junky, plot device for Rian Johnson to show that Luke has to get his balls back...err...I mean, regain his "lost faith".  

 

[Broke as a Joke]

Spoiler

You would think a movie that featured the death of Luke Skywalker would emit some kind of emotion, watery eyes etc.. but the overall feeling was Wtf did I just watch.  

That's not a good thing.

[Mephisto]

2 hours ago, kimik said:

It looks like I am going to have to see this movie by myself this holiday break. My kids do not want to go since they have heard that it sucks at school (my son, who grew up on the Clone Wars cartoons, suggested we just wait for it to stream online), and my wife does not want to go either. 

If younger generations are not down with this then pushing the new era will not have the shelf life Disney is expecting. 

Just because it’s Star Wars doesn’t mean people will continue to drink the Kool Aide especially if they have no connection to new aspects and when new aspects are done poorly. I have no problem with moving a head with new characters etc but it has to be really well done and actually grab me. As I mentioned I really liked Rey in the first film. However, I didn’t think Daisy’s acting was as good in this film and my girl friend said he chactater wasn’t as strong (which it could have been given more screen time but let’s waste on extraneous like Rose). I said, I have heard others say it, and I listen don’t listen to a POD cast with multiple people say after this film they no long care anout Rey, Kylo, or any of the new characters going forward. Had they been presented much stronger and interesting then perhaps people would despite some of the flaws and ending with Luke that irked many.

Instead they went all Marvel and wasted time with jokes like Kylo with his shirt off. Surprised they didn’t just go ahead and quote SNL. “My buddy saw Kylo Ren come out of the shower. He said Kylo Ren was shredded that he had an 8 pack.”

Just because somethings is being called Star Wars and there are light sabers involved doesn’t mean I am going to be interested in the next trilogy if the characters and story are no good.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Mephisto

[Rip]

For those curious.

I know there was another interview about how Ray was supposed to be younger as well. But here is some added pieces.

Our Only Look at George Lucas’ Vision for the ‘Star Wars’ Sequel Trilogy

http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/

In the book, we learn that one of the first meetings to visualize The Force Awakens happened on January 16, 2013 at Skywalker Ranch with George Lucas himself. Among the pieces presented at the meeting were portraits of an older Luke Skywalker training a new disciple named Kira (who was later renamed Rey). The idea was that, 30 years after the fall of the Empire, Luke had gone to a dark place and secluded himself in a Jedi temple on a new planet. The paintings show Luke meditating, reassessing his whole life.

Apparently, the initial plan for Star Wars: Episode 7 was that Luke, over the course of that movie, would rediscover his vitality and train this new Jedi. So basically, what we got from the Rey/Luke storyline in The Last Jedi was initially supposed to be the bones for George Lucas’ Episode 7. Imagine an alternate universe where Episode 7 was Luke reluctantly training a new Jedi – it would be completely different.

So why did it change? Everyone realized that Luke Skywalker would better serve the needs of the story as the person that everyone seeks but does not find until the final scene of The Force Awakens. This allowed Han Solo more time as the mentor of the story, and the visuals of Luke training Rey on the site of an old Jedi temple were shelved for the next movie.

One features Luke in heavy thought and another could depict a Sith Force ghost haunting him.

 

Having seen the book there is also some interesting things about a Sith/Dark Jedi Ghost which seems to Luke talk with.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Rip

[Azkaban]

30 minutes ago, Broke as a Joke said:

  Reveal hidden contents

You would think a movie that featured the death of Luke Skywalker would emit some kind of emotion, watery eyes etc.. but the overall feeling was Wtf did I just watch.  

That's not a good thing.

As soon as he threw the saber and starting milking teats I was waiting for it to be over

[GM8]

1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

People don't change to their core. They get a little older, a little fatter, a little more cynical but their core driving beliefs...the things that drive their entire ethos (like protecting those closest to them and throwing themselves into harms way without hesitation to do so) wouldn't, not for someone who had seen and done the things Luke did to that point.

The looks may change, but motivations don't. Luke wasn't a child in ROTJ and if facing off in mortal combat against your own father in a battle for your soul and his in the balance doesn't steel who you are as a person and what your moral compass is then I doubt anything that follows would cause it to be altered.

Johnson did ALL of that as a set up. Making Luke act like a complete emo-anus, even though it's ENTIRELY against his character, just so Johnson could give him a grand finale. The problem with the finale he gave him is what he had to strip away from Luke to get there. It all rang false. 

(spoilers) I understand where you are coming from.  But I loved Luke's character in the old films and as much in this one.  He's a human and in my eyes none of his core beliefs changed.   He made the ultimate sacrifice just like Obi-Wan.  There is nothing more selfless than that and the only falseness that I see is from consumers who expect a fictional character to do as they desire.

[GM8]

1 hour ago, I like pie said:

RT score dropping even lower to 54%.

Is that something to be giddy about?

[fett]

58 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Luke would NEVER had let Leia wait, even a moment, knowing she was in danger. It was a cheap, junky, plot device for Rian Johnson to show that Luke has to get his balls back...err...I mean, regain his "lost faith".  

 

I did like it when R2 showed him the original holo and made him feel guilty. I thought they might actually pull the movie out with a great ending. 

[Larryw7]

I thought the movie was good, but it didn't feel like part of a trilogy. Episode 2's hook was that we wanted to see Vader's origin in 3, and ESB's hook was the unresolved ending and to find out if Vader was really Luke's father. There is no real hook at the end of episode 8, and that might depress box office revenue for the last chapter of this trilogy.

[comix4fun]

6 minutes ago, GM8 said:

(spoilers) I understand where you are coming from.  But I loved Luke's character in the old films and as much in this one.  He's a human and in my eyes none of his core beliefs changed.   He made the ultimate sacrifice just like Obi-Wan.  There is nothing more selfless than that and the only falseness that I see is from consumers who expect a fictional character to do as they desire.

There's nothing false in expecting established characters with an established ethos to follow that ethos. 

My complaint isn't in Luke doing or not doing as I desire, it's in him doing or not doing as his established character dictates to forward a desired plot line.