STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[fantastic_four]

7 hours ago, CAHokie said:

Speaking of merchandising...was that the only purpose of Captain Phasma? Seriously, I can’t remember anything she actually did to warrant being a major character. I’m surprised they hired the GOT female because just about any tall female could have accomplished her role, which is unfortunate.

Phasma did nothing at all except wear a very shiny stormtrooper outfit.

[GM8]

13 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

I want the hero in the film. Who is the hero in this film? It is not easily answered, you really can't call Luke the hero, he is so "anti hero" for most of it. Rey? She doesn't do much. Other than those 2 there is no one. It just isn't much of a Star Wars movie without a defined hero within the story. We don't really see a hero until 2 hours have passed.

I want the hero. I want to see the hero use his rope and grab the princess and swing across the open chasm to get to the other side while the bad guys shoot at them.

The problem with this film is the story: it should have started with Luke being the hero, The Last Jedi.

How much more awesome would this have been for an opening scene:

Luke looks at Rey with the lightsaber in her hand. He looks at the lightsaber, then her. Then he says "I knew you would come. Lets begin your training" and as soon as he completes that sentence he uses the force and wills the lightsaber into his hand, and raises it with its light crackling. The great Star Wars music swells to a crescendo. YES! Luke is a Jedi still. The audience would cheer.

Instead he casually throws the lightsaber away, and then milks some alien for a drink. Yeah whatever, what terrible writing.

How would you like that cheese. with wine and a baguette?

Come on. That's trying way too hard to hold on to the past.  Yoda was living alone on a deserted planet and a practical joker.  Yet he was the most powerful jedi of all.  Oh and he was a puppet.  Was that enough to complain about.

What this whole thing has shown is the power of the mob.  A loud mob of nostalgic, aging people want the world THEIR way or else.  Or else we'll use our vote (pun intended) to lash out.  Meanwhile the majority just take it until it gets too painful for our tunnel vision to tolerate.  I'm there.

[bane]

Rabid nerd fan base aside....

Majority of casual movie goers I know who are out on a Saturday night for the whole movie & meal evening thing, the ones I have talked to (at work, friends etc) majority thought it was a poor movie.

I will wait for paperheart & Gatsby77 to start posting the box office because that's what's most important.

[Bosco685]

Mark Hamill Opens Up About STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI; "He’s Not My Luke Skywalker"

Quote

Hamill clearly wanted to see what George Lucas would have done with Luke and feels that his version would have been much closer to what we got in the original trilogy rather than this new take.

 

"I said to Rian, ‘Jedi’s don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective. …That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well."

While these comments may give some angry Star Wars fans ammunition to use against Johnson and the current direction the franchise is heading it, it's important to note that Hamill is an actor and not a storyteller. Lucas' take on this new trilogy probably would have been vastly more controversial than what Abrams and Johnson have delivered given the reception to the prequels he wrote and directed.
 

"But listen," the actor adds. "I still haven’t accepted it completely. But it’s only a movie. I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset, and I came to really believe that Rian was the exact man that they need for this job."

 

[bane]

I liked the stories of the prequels fine, well maybe except all the trade dispute nonsense in TPM and the god awful Jar Jar binks and Gungan characters, my problem with the prequels has always been the over use of CGI that just made it look like a computer game and the awful --script (not story). The acting was truly awful based on those scripts.

Lucas should have wrote the stories and handed the --script and directing to another like he did with ESB & ROtJ. He should have given Spielberg a chance to direct one of the prequels.

Also hinting that Anakin slaughters the younglings which for me there is no redemption from.

Edited December 21, 2017 by bane

[fantastic_four]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective. …That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars.

It does seem unlikely that Lucas would have done that with Luke, but it's equally true that he very likely wouldn't have done much of anything with Luke.  He certainly wouldn't have centered the story of Episode VII around him like J.J. Abrams did.

I rather doubt that Abrams would have done what Rian did, either.

[WolverineX]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Mark Hamill Opens Up About STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI; "He’s Not My Luke Skywalker"

 

I love Mark Hamill being totally honest.  That man doesn't care what other people think because he has all the money and fan support he would ever need.  He just tells it like it is.

[Gatsby77]

2 minutes ago, bane said:

Rabid nerd fan base aside....

Majority of casual movie goers I know who are out on a Saturday night for the whole movie & meal evening thing, the ones I have talked to (at work, friends etc) majority thought it was a poor movie.

I will wait for paperheart & Gatsby77 to start posting the box office because that's what's most important.

Thanks, but um...

I haven't brought up box office once.

I enjoyed the movie on its merits because it took risks and moved beyond simply rehashing the original Star Wars.

Yeah - the middle section and casino planet scene could have been cut by 80%, but overall the twists were brilliant.

I'd post this Forbes piece that articulates why and how I enjoyed it and think it was a necessary and smart move for the future of the franchise, but then I'd simply be cited as a shill being paid off like "all the critics" were.

One Reason 'The Last Jedi' Is A Masterpiece? It Shatters Our 'Star Wars' Nostalgia

Even the main trailer is great in retrospect because:

a) It features Luke saying "This is not going to go the way you think" and

b) Leads us to believe Leia will be killed in the strike by Ren.

[fantastic_four]

1 minute ago, bane said:

I liked the stories of the prequels fine, well maybe except all the trade dispute nonsense in TPM and the god awful Jar Jar binks and Gungan characters, my problem with the prequels has always been the over use of CGI that just made it look like a computer game and the awful ---script (not story). The acting was truly awful based on those scripts.

Lucas should have wrote the stories and handed the ---script and directing to another like he did with ESB & ROtJ. He should have given Spielberg a chance to direct one of the prequels.

Also hinting that Anakin slaughters the younglings which for me there is no redemption from.

I enjoyed the development of Darth Vader, Palpatine, and the politics of Palpatine transforming the Republic into the Empire.  Every time I see that scene where Anakin's mom dies, he gets that look of hate, then slaughters the sandpeople, I choke up with emotion, feeling almost the same way Anakin does in that moment.  I never thought Lucas would make me identify with Vader's point of view like he did in that scene.

[Gatsby77]

Hey look - it's a farmer drinking blue milk!

 

[fantastic_four]

The best part of what Rian did with Luke was to set up the situation of what he should have done once he saw Ben Solo's future as the likely next Darth Vader.  The idea of him drawing his saber, then hesitating, then Ben waking up and reacting is complex and compelling.  I'm fascinated by the question of what I would have done in that place...I'm still not sure.  I lean towards killing Ben, but I probably would've hesitated, too.

Edited December 21, 2017 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

Interestingly, he had the storyline of the prequels pretty much mapped out by 1981:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/star-wars-prequels-return-of-the-jedi_n_3313793.html

Fascinating to see that while many of the details of his prequel outline changed 17 years later, it mostly stayed the same.

There's one VERY surprising bit in the conversation in this linked article between George Lucas, Lawrence Kasdan (the screenwriter for episodes V, VI, and VII), and Richard Marquand, the director of Episode VI:

Quote

Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

Marquand: They use it as a technique.

Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.

So did the Force work this way all along, or did Lucas go back and forth about whether or not anyone could actively control the Force like the Jedi did?  I'm very confused about this point, particularly so since he conceived of midi-chlorians all along.  Anakin didn't "take the time to do it," he was the "Chosen One," implying he was born with his Force sensitivity.

I particularly don't understand what Rian had Luke thinking about why the Jedi had to end...so what, we should get rid of all the yoga studios, too?  I don't see his issue with a group devoting themselves to learning to control the Force for the benefit of civilization like the Jedi did.  

Edited December 21, 2017 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

24 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

It does seem unlikely that Lucas would have done that with Luke, but it's equally true that he very likely wouldn't have done much of anything with Luke.  He certainly wouldn't have centered the story of Episode VII around him like J.J. Abrams did.

Actually...

George Lucas pitched 'Episode VII' to Mark Hamill in the ‘80s

Quote

In the 1983 interview, Hamill reveals that Lucas once asked him, "Would you consider playing an Obi-Wan-like character, handing Excalibur down to the next generation?" The sequel wouldn't be made until roughly 2011, Lucas said, and in return Hamill replied, "Gee, as much as I'd like to have a job lined up at the turn of the century ... well, I don't know."

 

Now, all of these years later, we're on the precipice of another Star Wars, but Hamill never could have imagined that George Lucas himself wouldn't be at the helm of the sequel. Of course, we don't know for certain what type of role Hamill will play in the upcoming film, but we do know that the -script is based on some of Lucas' ideas for a sequel trilogy.

So it sounds like Lucas had some concept in mind that later on became ' The Force Awakens'.

[fantastic_four]

4 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Actually...

That's the exact same quote I cited a few posts back, and it's the one that suggests Lucas would have only used Luke as a cameo.

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-long-winding-and-shapeshifting-trail-to-episodes-vii-viii-ix

Edited December 21, 2017 by fantastic_four

[Artboy99]

32 minutes ago, GM8 said:

How would you like that cheese. with wine and a baguette?

Come on. That's trying way too hard to hold on to the past.  Yoda was living alone on a deserted planet and a practical joker.  Yet he was the most powerful jedi of all.  Oh and he was a puppet.  Was that enough to complain about.

What this whole thing has shown is the power of the mob.  A loud mob of nostalgic, aging people want the world THEIR way or else.  Or else we'll use our vote (pun intended) to lash out.  Meanwhile the majority just take it until it gets too painful for our tunnel vision to tolerate.  I'm there.

Fair enough.

I have nothing to complain about regarding Yoda. He was an interesting colorful character and became Luke's mentor. He has always been that character, and they did Yoda well in the Last Jedi

Luke in The Last Jedi isn't the character from the first trilogy. Mark Hamill himself says this. All I am saying is if Disney held true to the characters of the original trilogy and wrote a far better story they would have a massive hit. They are trying to make films that pass the Star Wars "torch" and I don't have any issue with doing that as it is needed based on the aging people but they are destroying the past to do so. My opinion is that is a mistake.

To quote Luke Skywalker: "I will never turn to the dark side. I am a Jedi, like my Father before me." What a wonderful film it could have been to start there and show us that Luke. Instead he is so conflicted now that he is going to murder a sleeping boy? Isn't that the dark side?

 

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

That's the exact same quote I cited a few posts back, and it's the one that suggests Lucas would have only used Luke as a cameo.

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-long-winding-and-shapeshifting-trail-to-episodes-vii-viii-ix

Read further down.

Quote

While Empire was originally part of a 12-film plan, by the time it was released, the number had clearly been reduced to nine. “The prequel stories exist — where Darth Vader came from, the whole story about Darth and Ben Kenobi — and it all takes place before Luke was born,” Lucas explained at the time. “The other one — what happens to Luke afterward — is much more ethereal. I have a tiny notebook full of notes on that. If I’m really ambitious, I could proceed to figure out what would have happened to Luke.”

Of course he couldn't just make him a cameo. He wanted to develop a story around where he had gone, and what had become of him.

[jsilverjanet]

39 minutes ago, bane said:

I liked the stories of the prequels fine, well maybe except all the trade dispute nonsense in TPM and the god awful Jar Jar binks and Gungan characters, my problem with the prequels has always been the over use of CGI that just made it look like a computer game and the awful ---script (not story). The acting was truly awful based on those scripts.

Lucas should have wrote the stories and handed the ---script and directing to another like he did with ESB & ROtJ. He should have given Spielberg a chance to direct one of the prequels.

Also hinting that Anakin slaughters the younglings which for me there is no redemption from.

for as bad as the sequels were, they did give us a young Obi-Won who for the most part delivered what I wanted to see

[jsilverjanet]

2 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

I don't understand the reference.  Was it something about the slow motion?

 

 

 

[Artboy99]

20 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

The best part of what Rian did was Luke was to set up the situation of what he should have done once he saw Ben Solo's future as the likely next Darth Vader.  The idea of him drawing his saber, then hesitating, then Ben waking up and reacting is complex and compelling.  I'm fascinated by the question of what I would have done in that place...I'm still not sure.  I lean towards killing Ben, but I probably would've hesitated, too.

If you had better writers creating the story you wouldn't be put in that situation at all.

I sure would like to know what influenced Kylo Ren to go towards the dark side. Anakin had many things that were dark and negative influence his decisions. The emperor himself orchestrating /guiding him along to become a Sith. Leia and Han did something that influenced Kylo to become evil?  Interesting theory but I don't buy it. So it was Luke that created Kylo? Really? That isn't the actions of a Jedi. It just doesn't make any sense. Perhaps that story is to come, but for now it has been very poorly explained because there is no way Han, Leia and Luke would create the next Darth Vader.

[Gatsby77]

8 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

To quote Luke Skywalker: "I will never turn to the dark side. I am a Jedi, like my Father before me." What a wonderful film it could have been to start there and show us that Luke. Instead he is so conflicted now that he is going to murder a sleeping boy? Isn't that the dark side?

Did you miss that he didn't murder that sleeping boy?

He was tempted, knowing that he could save countless lives, but he didn't.

That's  the point.

He didn't turn to the Dark Side then. Nor did he kill Kylo (or well...anyone) at the film's end.

But in allowing Kylo to live, he cost the lives of all the other Jedi trainees and thousands of others.

That's quite a burden to bear, and I can understand why -- with that failure on his conscience -- he'd choose to just walk away from it all.

He has to wake up every day with the consequences of his failing Kylo, and the bloodshed it's caused.

 

This was pretty much the theme of Rian Johnson's Looper, too: If you had the chance to kill Hitler as a child - would you? Or might there be another way?