STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[zhamlau]

In the end, this really winds up with just people having differing opinions and pretending everyone else is wrong. The money the films made is fact (mostly, I still wonder if some of these numbers are sometimes fudged by the studio at times with creative accounting but that's a different story lol). The first two movies had a more competitive marketplace to fight and managed to make nearly 100% more in ticket sales and DVD sales then the last two. That's a fact. We can argue if that's problematic for Disney or if they will just accept that greatly reduced revenue and not question it. But the fact is the TJL and its follow up act Solo came into what should have been favorable conditions and managed to vastly under perform the first two in ticket sales and DVD/Rentals combined. Why that happened again we can debate all we want with no one being able to actually prove anything, just make arguments in their favor.

No one here is a guardian of truth, we are just interpreters of facts and the opinions of other theorists.

No one knows if KK is going to be fired or not, no one here was in the room. There are reports it was seriously looked at, but if you want you can down play them and write them off. Again no one here was at any of those meetings so it's all speculation. Disney would never admit to having the conversation either, It looks bad and unsteady and no company with shareholders would want that.

I think this is probably the most honest assessment any of us can make. I personally think Disney looks at that as lost revenue and ties it to fan reactions and extreme displeasure with the way KK is steering the franchise. Others might think Disney just looks at it as an unusually steep drop off and completely unrelated waning fan interest. To each their own.

There were films in production that have on some level, after Solo, been put on hold/not moving forward at this time. I think that part, with the statements of the Rogue one art Director and Ewan, is not in question. I think its clearly tied to the lack of fan support of Solo which i think would be hard to argue against, but again all ANYONE here can do is speculate on this front. Why solo , a quality movie, did so poorly is up to speculation. I think like many think its due to fan displeasure with its lead in movie TJL. That not going to this movie was their way of showing Disney they aren't pleased with how this is being steered. Again, we can debate the causes all we want.

If you feel the franchise is in a healthy place and has nearly full fan support and a strong future based on the leadership of KK so be it, everyone's entitled to their interpretation. I feel otherwise as do many others. Time will tell.

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by zhamlau

[Prince Namor]

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

In the end, this really winds up with just people having differing opinions and pretending everyone else is wrong.

I never had a problem with your opinion. You can believe until the end of time whatever you choose. 

But when you present it as fact, there’s a  chance someone may call it into question. 

No one knows if they had a secret meeting to let Kevin Smith run the Star Wars Universe - but if I speculate - and say ‘People are saying’ - that doesn’t make it anymore true. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

The money the films made is fact (mostly, I still wonder if some of these numbers are sometimes fudged by the studio at times with creative accounting but that's a different story lol).

You think they inflate their numbers to pay more taxes?

or deflate their numbers to pay less in taxes and risk going to jail for years? The head of Disney is wealthy enough he doesn’t need to risk that. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

The first two movies had a more competitive marketplace to fight and managed to make nearly 100% more in ticket sales and DVD sales then the last two. That's a fact.

That’s NOT a fact. TFA did 34-37% more at the box office.

DVD/BluRay Sales aren’t finished yet. 

It also had a decade+ gap between a previous Star Wars movie. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

We can argue if that's problematic for Disney or if they will just accept that greatly reduced revenue and not question it. But the fact is the TJL and its follow up act Solo came into what should have been favorable conditions and managed to vastly under perform the first two in ticket sales and DVD/Rentals combined.

If you thought each of these movies would make $2 Billion, you haven’t been paying attention to the Box Office.

Thus far, Marvel, who is making some of the best Sci-Fi action movies ever made, has only done it ONCE and they’ve had 20+ shots at it.

And TLJ did not under perform in DVD/BluRay, it’s the #1 selling title of the year and it still has Christmas to add to its total. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Why that happened again we can debate all we want with no one being able to actually prove anything, just make arguments in their favor.

Yep. As long as ‘People are saying’ isn’t confused with fact. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

No one here is a guardian of truth, we are just interpreters of facts and the opinions of other theorists.

That’s right. So when you present BS as fact someone will call it out. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

No one knows if KK is going to be fired or not, no one here was in the room. There are reports it was seriously looked at, but if you want you can down play them and write them off. Again no one here was at any of those meetings so it's all speculation. Disney would never admit to having the conversation either, It looks bad and unsteady and no company with shareholders would want that.

There’s no proof there was even a meeting. There’s no proof of anything having happened. 

And if Disney lost so much money as you claim - changing things would be exactly what shareholders would want. 

But what do shareholders actually have to do with it? As a Disney shareholder your profit is based off the companies success... not one movie franchise.

It’s producers that actually put the money together - and I guarantee you - it’s put together with projection forecasts closer to $1 Billion Worldwide than it ever EVER would be towards $2 Billion. 

Shareholders have nothing to do with it. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I think this is probably the most honest assessment any of us can make. I personally think Disney looks at that as lost revenue and ties it to fan reactions

LOL. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

and extreme displeasure with the way KK is steering the franchise.

You need to read some Bob Iger interviews. He’s not who you think he is. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Others might think Disney just looks at it as an unusually steep drop off and completely unrelated waning fan interest. To each their own.

It’s unusually steep because no makes $2 Billion movies. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

There were films in production that have on some level, after Solo, been put on hold/not moving forward at this time.

Episode IX, the planned next movie is on schedule. 

The other stuff is far enough in the future  that there’s nothing to see yet. 

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I think that part, with the statements of the Rogue one art Director and Ewan, is not in question. I think its clearly tied to the lack of fan support of Solo which i think would be hard to argue against, but again all ANYONE here can do is speculate on this front. Why solo , a quality movie, did so poorly is up to speculation. I think like many think its due to fan displeasure with its lead in movie TJL. That not going to this movie was their way of showing Disney they aren't pleased with how this is being steered. Again, we can debate the causes all we want.

That’s what naysayers want it to be. 

For me, I have no interest in the character as portrayed by someone who didn’t interest me in going to see it. 

It was an Infinity War summer.

59 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

If you feel the franchise is in a healthy place and has nearly full fan support and a strong future based on the leadership of KK so be it, everyone's entitled to their interpretation. I feel otherwise as do many others. Time will tell.

 

I don’t know what you mean by a ‘healthy place’. Episode IX will do over $1 Billion and be a success. That’s healthy. Anyone who thinks it’s not is unfamiliar with the movie industry. 

As far as full fan support - LOL - you can’t please everyone. No matter what type of movie they do there will be groups of people person_without_enough_empathyin’ about it. 

You forget - TFA’s had a huge backlash of people who complained it was the same old story. They just got drowned out by the SW fans so hungry for a movie after a decade + that they went and saw it multiple times. 

Studios make blockbuster movies how they want to make them. Based upon attracting the largest audience they can. They paid BILLIONS to own the franchise, they’re going to do it their way. 

It has nothing to do with what a fraction of the fan base ‘thinks’. 

[fantastic_four]

[zhamlau]

 

27 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

 

LOL....god a line by line recounting of his opinions and rationalizations followed up by an ever present like-minded friend following up with a "wow you're the best" meme...We have hit internet debate perfection...

TLJ and its Spinoff did 1/2 of what the first film/spinoff combo did. The Chinese market looks all but lost to the films based on performances. Spinoff films were being worked on but no are not. all of those are facts you may have not agreed on those but they are true. I personally find those to be very damning of KK and her vision for the franchise and its future, and I can very easily see a corporation doing the same. You do not, that's all this is despite all the high handed "Im calling out BS" self aggrandizing. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by zhamlau

[fantastic_four]

1 minute ago, zhamlau said:

like-minded friend following up with a "wow you're the best" meme

That meme was directed at EVERYONE who has pointlessly ballooned this thread by 5+ pages over the last 24 hours in the thread including Gower.  I've had Chuck Gower on relaxed mental ignore for years along with the other dozen or so forum members who insist on framing every discussion as a debate.

[zhamlau]

16 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

That meme was directed at EVERYONE who has pointlessly ballooned this thread by 5+ pages over the last 24 hours in the thread including Gower.  I've had Chuck Gower on relaxed mental ignore for years along with the other dozen or so forum members who insist on framing every discussion as a debate.

then thats my bad. Im sorry i misread that.

 

One question: Honestly did you think TLJ was a good movie?

Edited August 29, 2018 by zhamlau

[valiantman]

13 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

One question: Honestly did you think TJL was a good movie?

The Jedi Luke? 

[zhamlau]

1 minute ago, valiantman said:

15 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

One question: Honestly did you think TJL was a good movie?

The Jedi Luke? 

LOL, actually id rather have watched that movie (fixed that btw).

[fantastic_four]

Directors get all the hype, but directors appreciate good producers because they enable them to make films without having to worry about where everything's coming from and how it's going to get paid for.  All of the media chatter about Kathleen Kennedy for the last year or so has been about as ridiculously idle as talk of firing Bill Bellichick of the New England Patriots, Bob Myers of the Golden State Warriors, Brian Cashman of the New York Yankees, or insert your favorte insanely successful sports General Manager here since that's the role that best parallels what producers are to films.  I can only assume the people who are buying it are mostly unfamiliar with who she is.

Kennedy is pretty much a ten-time All-Star and by leaps and bounds the most powerful and respected woman in Hollywood, and she's been that since not long after Spielberg helped boost her to where she's at in the late 70s and 80s.  It'd take a LOT more than even five unprofitable Star Wars films for Disney to come anywhere near to firing her.  Lucas specifically replaced himself with her in his role as the head of Lucasfilm right before he sold it to Disney as a signal to them that Kennedy is the person he trusts the most to direct his company without him leading it.

Here she is with Lucas and her eventual husband Frank Marshall on Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom:

And here she is with Spielberg on her first major producing success on E.T.:

Edited August 29, 2018 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

I can, however, see Kennedy shifting back to film production and away as head of LucasFilm only if another Kevin Feige came around.  But Kevin Feiges are available in about the same supply that a LeBron James or Tom Brady is, i.e. they either don't or barely exist.  The particular challenge with this is that the people with the creative chops to guide a sizable film universe typically want to write or direct and not run a company.  DC hoped that would work out with Geoff Johns, but as is the case with most creatives he really didn't want to be an exec and returned to creative work.  I was really hoping Johns would become the next Feige too, but that dream died when he stepped down as the head of DC Entertainment earlier this year.

J.J. Abrams MIGHT be a Kennedy replacement, but as far as I can tell he doesn't want the job much more than Johns ultimately did.  Abrams has never left screenwriting or directing for long before taking it up again.  He's got his own production company in Bad Robot that he half-manages and half leaves to other people to manage so he can keep making movies.

But just saying "fire Kathleen Kennedy" is ridiculous.  That's like saying "fire Kevin Durant because he's no LeBron James!"    OK, sure, you're right, but until you've got a LeBron James lined up, better not fire one of the best producers of all time, eh?  You can't get rid of Kennedy without already having another star filmmaker lined up who you can put a name to.

Edited August 29, 2018 by fantastic_four

[mattn792]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

That meme was directed at EVERYONE who has pointlessly ballooned this thread by 5+ pages over the last 24 hours in the thread including Gower.  I've had Chuck Gower on relaxed mental ignore for years along with the other dozen or so forum members who insist on framing every discussion as a debate.

@Chuck Gower -- You got 5 more pages in you?  I think we can pull it off. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Don't you love when people make a scene and complain about what other people choose to talk about...?

It's like they think they own the place, and can dictate, through peer pressure, what is, and is not, acceptable posting. So people like to "frame every discussion as a debate", as some might claim. And...? So...? If you don't like the way someone posts, ignore them. No one is forced to read anything anyone else writes.

And people call ME condescending...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

30 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

@Chuck Gower -- You got 5 more pages in you?  I think we can pull it off. 

I may not agree with what you say...but I support your privilege (on this board) to say it.

[mattn792]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I may not agree with what you say...but I support your privilege (on this board) to say it.

Back atcha, plus you and me do find the common ground every so often...

[RockMyAmadeus]

10 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

Back atcha, plus you and me do find the common ground every so often...

Agree to disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

6 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

@Chuck Gower -- You got 5 more pages in you?  I think we can pull it off. 

There’s nothing to debate. 

His side is made up of:

1. Information that is completely unverified by anyone with any clout in the industry. 

2. The notion that making $2 Billion films is a realistic goal for any franchise (it’s not - there’s only 4 films in history thatve ever gotten there)

3. And that somehow the WANTS of a small group of Star Wars fans is going to change the direction of a company that did a BILLION dollars on a movie - just the movie mind you - Star Wars was also the #1 selling toy franchise last Christmas and the DVD/BluRay the #1 seller of the year. 

Whatever change they might make will be based upon what THEY want to change. Not an group of internet fans. 

[mattn792]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

There’s nothing to debate. 

His side is made up of:

1. Information that is completely unverified by anyone with any clout in the industry. 

2. The notion that making $2 Billion films is a realistic goal for any franchise (it’s not - there’s only 4 films in history thatve ever gotten there)

3. And that somehow the WANTS of a small group of Star Wars fans is going to change the direction of a company that did a BILLION dollars on a movie - just the movie mind you - Star Wars was also the #1 selling toy franchise last Christmas and the DVD/BluRay the #1 seller of the year. 

Whatever change they might make will be based upon what THEY want to change. Not an group of internet fans. 

No, the heck with that, I meant you and I could pull off 5 more pages easy.  We can even move off Episode VIII and into other (vaguely, some would say very vaguely) Star Wars related topics...

- If Leia was GM of the Mets, would she have traded deGrom?
- Better fit at the 5 for the Warriors:  Chewbacca, or another collection of guys who can fill space?
- Green sea monster milk: the next PED to be flagged by USADA?

We got this.

[Prince Namor]

4 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

No, the heck with that, I meant you and I could pull off 5 more pages easy.  We can even move off Episode VIII and into other (vaguely, some would say very vaguely) Star Wars related topics...

- If Leia was GM of the Mets, would she have traded deGrom?
- Better fit at the 5 for the Warriors:  Chewbacca, or another collection of guys who can fill space?
- Green sea monster milk: the next PED to be flagged by USADA?

We got this.

Honestly, I don’t have that much interest in Star Wars. I can take it or leave it, though seeing TFA was something I wanted to experience and most likely I’ll go see IX at the theater. 

I just have an issue with people who alter reality or reverse engineer a scenario to make their statement seem to have some merit. 

That’s the reverse of critical thinking, and approach to hypothesis. 

[mattn792]

Boo-urns.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am a strong Believer in Strip Club Philosophy and Wisdom, myself. Not that I want to debate it, but still.....