Question for Heritage and comiclink reps wrt Burkey admission 2 2

[kav]

I remember one famous shiller-his excuse was he was 'just trying to move the auction along'.

You know: helpful-like.

I've heard criminals say they did a good thing by stealing because it taught people to be more careful.

[CJT5150]

I just stumbled across these posts (I don't visit all that often) and this is disappointing to hear.

 

I recently ended up with one of Mike's pieces in the last Heritage auction, one that I had eyed on his site for a while. During the auction I ended up bidding to just slightly less than the price he had listed at on his website; I ended up as the under-bidder for the item.

 

A week or so later I get a call from Heritage asking if I still wanted to buy the item at my last bid. I asked what happened to the winning bid but the representative said she did not know.

 

I ended up accepting and buying the item. I obviously was willing to cut the check so I am comfortable with the price I guess. What would be disappointing is if this item was bid up, with the the winning bid not really being legitimate and the winning "bidder" not being someone that actually intended to buy the item. Maybe I am niave to art collecting - it's not like I have an extensive collection - but it feels unsavory to me, legal or not.

 

 

[Mmehdy]

The auction houses need to respond and reassure us that we all play on the same playing field, Mike should be banned from every consigning with them again, even if he sets a reserve how is that gonna stop his buddy's from biding to get the piece back to mike ...

Edited January 24, 2016 by Mmehdy

[Bird]

I just stumbled across these posts (I don't visit all that often) and this is disappointing to hear.

 

I recently ended up with one of Mike's pieces in the last Heritage auction, one that I had eyed on his site for a while. During the auction I ended up bidding to just slightly less than the price he had listed at on his website; I ended up as the under-bidder for the item.

 

A week or so later I get a call from Heritage asking if I still wanted to buy the item at my last bid. I asked what happened to the winning bid but the representative said she did not know.

 

I ended up accepting and buying the item. I obviously was willing to cut the check so I am comfortable with the price I guess. What would be disappointing is if this item was bid up, with the the winning bid not really being legitimate and the winning "bidder" not being someone that actually intended to buy the item. Maybe I am niave to art collecting - it's not like I have an extensive collection - but it feels unsavory to me, legal or not.

 

 

Well, you will never know.

 

Unless you call HA and ask directly. But if you call I would be prepared to return the piece should you hear something that concerns you.

 

This is the new normal.

[DeadpoolJr.]

I remember one famous shiller-his excuse was he was 'just trying to move the auction along'.

You know: helpful-like.

I've heard criminals say they did a good thing by stealing because it taught people to be more careful.

Symbiotic?

[Mmehdy]

I don't believe for one minute any of the auctions were aware of mikes friends bidding on pieces ....I feel sorry for everybody whoever lost out to mikes friends, overpaid... And just plain thought it was a fair playing field auction.

[thehumantorch]

Guys, he is telling you straight up what he is doing. It is not illegal. So he wants to ask a friend to bid on, and if he wins, pay for, a piece so he could possibly trade for or buy back. Remember, he is also paying the 19.5% commission fee.

Or you can say, in a round about way, it can be like putting a reserve on a piece.

No one is forcing another bidder to bid on the piece.

Is it much different then a free agent using the NY Yankees as a pawn or a tool in driving the price up for his services? Then it is considered smart business, right?

Or how about Halperin bidding on, or asking someone to, bid on a piece he wants? Is it much different?

Can it possibly be considered a bit of a grey area? Yeah, I can see that, to an extent.

I personally would not make that a business practice. I would rather just do a reserve.

But if occasionally I regretted putting the piece in auction, and it was already underway, I would do that. Or if I had a piece in auction that I thought just wasn't getting the respect, I might do that. Just not as a matter of routine business.

But to say, or imply, that what Mike is doing is a non debatable, unscrupulous thing to do, I think is unfair, and even possibly hypocritical for some here.

I love to hear M.Stock's point of view on this...

 

 

With all due respect I don't understand your post and I'm gonna try to go through it logically and without emotion.

 

Guys, he is telling you straight up what he is doing He was very forthcoming about his shilling but that was clearly an attempt at damage control. He's shilled hundreds of items over the last 14 years and he never volunteered that information until difficult questions were asked. There was never a disclaimer in any of his auction listings stating they might be shilled and none of his items were identified as his.

 

It is not illegal. Maybe it isn't in Texas but I believe it is in many states. It's certainly against Heritage policy. It's certainly unethical.

 

So he wants to ask a friend to bid on, and if he wins, pay for, a piece so he could possibly trade for or buy back. Why does he need a friend? He has an internet connection and a Heritage account. The fact that he admits he uses a proxy bidder shows that at some level he knows it's unethical or he knows Heritage could detect his bids and it's against their policy - I'd suggest both. And when you ask someone to bid on your auctions for you, that person is bidding as your representative. And this isn't a one off, "I've changed my mind, the market for purple poodles in yellow puddles is weak right now and I never should have auctioned that piece'. This is a systemic behavior over many years on many pieces.

 

You also seem to believe this is purely to bring back a piece that sold too low. What happens when a piece is sitting at $5k, Mike values it at $15k and has a friend bid on it to get it back and someone else wants it badly. Mike must tell his friend how high to bid, say 12k. If there is a serious bidder he will get shilled up to 12k and win the piece. Mike doesn't admit this but clearly his bids will do one of two things, return the piece or drive the price up to the point he's happy with the sale. There's no possible way he can do one without the other.

 

he is also paying the 19.5% commission fee We don't know what this costs him. I've heard that Heritage will negotiate the seller's fee and in some cases give the seller part of the buyer's fee. And we don't know what he's giving his friendly buyer. Ultimately it doesn't matter what it costs him. It's a revenue positive and that's all he cares about.

 

it can be like putting a reserve on a piece Reserves are transparent. This is clearly not.

 

[kav]

I remember one famous shiller-his excuse was he was 'just trying to move the auction along'.

You know: helpful-like.

I've heard criminals say they did a good thing by stealing because it taught people to be more careful.

Symbiotic?

Symbiotic

[vodou]

You also seem to believe this is purely to bring back a piece that sold too low. What happens when a piece is sitting at $5k, Mike values it at $15k and has a friend bid on it to get it back and someone else wants it badly. Mike must tell his friend how high to bid, say 12k. If there is a serious bidder he will get shilled up to 12k and win the piece. Mike doesn't admit this but clearly his bids will do one of two things, return the piece or drive the price up to the point he's happy with the sale. There's no possible way he can do one without the other.

Sort of like this Kirby FF page.

 

1. 2009 HA sold $6500 http://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-vince-colletta-fantastic-four-41-page-11-original-art-marvel-1965-/a/7002-92148.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

 

2. 200x-2015 Romitaman.com unsold $14000. (I think Mike was the buyer at HA, but unprovable.)

 

3. 2015 HA "sold" $13100 (note: Under Mike's "list" $14000, assume shill outbid everyone else, there was no organic bidder willing to go higher).

 

4. 2016 Romitaman.com unsold (so far) $14000 (again).

 

Form your own judgement. Mike, the shill (if any, I could be wrong!), and HA are the only parties with some/all of the real facts of consignment, bidding, winning.

 

 

[Mmehdy]

You also seem to believe this is purely to bring back a piece that sold too low. What happens when a piece is sitting at $5k, Mike values it at $15k and has a friend bid on it to get it back and someone else wants it badly. Mike must tell his friend how high to bid, say 12k. If there is a serious bidder he will get shilled up to 12k and win the piece. Mike doesn't admit this but clearly his bids will do one of two things, return the piece or drive the price up to the point he's happy with the sale. There's no possible way he can do one without the other.

Sort of like this Kirby FF page.

 

1. 2009 HA sold $6500 http://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-vince-colletta-fantastic-four-41-page-11-original-art-marvel-1965-/a/7002-92148.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

 

2. 200x-2015 Romitaman.com unsold $14000. (I think Mike was the buyer at HA, but unprovable.)

 

3. 2015 HA "sold" $13100 (note: Under Mike's "list" $14000, assume shill outbid everyone else, there was no organic bidder willing to go higher).

 

 

 

4. 2016 Romitaman.com unsold (so far) $14000 (again).

 

Form your own judgement. Mike, the shill (if any, I could be wrong!), and HA are the only parties with some/all of the real facts of consignment, bidding, winning.

 

.

 

 

Shocking... Unfair...unwise

[AnWARtheart-migration]

 

 

So I guess Mike would find collectors like myself to be stupid for having been using the Heritage archives sold data base as some sort of basis of real information. Mike clearly had absolutely no moral issue with in the pool whatsoever. Guess he is smart and collectors are dumb. I think that's arrogance personified. Granted, I am constructing Mike's thoughts but what other conclusion can I come to? He had to have known he was sending bad price signals to the market and that collectors would rely on the bad data.

[Mmehdy]

 

So I guess Mike would find collectors like myself to be stupid for having been using the Heritage archives sold data base as some sort of basis of real information. Mike clearly had absolutely no moral issue with in the pool whatsoever. Guess he is smart and collectors are dumb. I think that's arrogance personified. Granted, I am constructing Mike's thoughts but what other conclusion can I come to? He had to have known he was sending bad price signals to the market and that collectors would rely on the bad data.

 

Why do it?...does he not have enough great art....his value might not be market...but he makes his own value market....better then the rest of us.....and by the way, lets make it 99% of all board members play fair....

[Peter G]

Why do it?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[thehumantorch]

Why do it?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Bottom line....

[AnWARtheart-migration]

Why do it?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Bottom line....

 

Vegas is an expensive town, you all! The girls ain't cheap!

 

[Meeley Man]

Why do it?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 

He did it all for the MONEY!

The MONEY!

So take your worries, sonny...

And stick them in your YEAH!

Stick them in your YEAH!

Stick them in your YEAH!

Stick them in your YEAH!!!

 

[Peter G]

 

Money Money Money Money Money Money Money

I'm rollin' in the

Money Money Money Money Money Money Money

Edited January 25, 2016 by Peter G

[Mmehdy]

If you won a piece, advertised as "no reserve" and mikes friend's bid you up,then you would be entitled to a refund of your buyer's fee at the very least.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Mmehdy

[Doc Joe]

Several additional things...

 

1)

there is no way he is paying the 19.5%

 

you get a discount from HA for bigger ticket items...and from my discussions with them they will go to one point with comics, and further with art.

 

Remember the is the hammer price - which you get -10%

and the buyers premium which HA gets

 

both are negotiable (unless you have no idea what you are doing like the families that consign grandpas comics to them)

 

so it is very likely that he is paying no more than 12% on the final price (hammer+19.5%) (i.e. hammer = $100, juice = $19.50 : total 119.50 - consigner gets 105$ + change)

 

 

2)

HA and all other auctions obviously will not let you bid on your own item...

you need a shill to do it for you

 

3)

HA may suspect if they keep seeing the same shill every time on Mike pieces but as long as the money keep rolling in would they bring it up?

 

4)

Are we naive enough to think that Mike is the only one? I make no accusations but it seems very logical / possible that there are more doing this

 

 

I would love to see an auction house represent their customers and issue a statement about this

 

looks like I will be sitting out the next auctions until I see something from them

[Peter G]

I would love to see an auction house represent their customers and issue a statement about this

 

+1