May Heritage Comics & Comic Art Signature Auction

[Mmehdy]

Most definitely not Magik's take on the grading situation.

 

I have spoken to him quite a few times, both before and after the auction, and he states emphatically that the grading with the other company is much tougher and much more consistent.

 

If so, he may literally be the only person who thinks this.

Certainly not at higher grades. The market has shown that it won`t pay the same kind of premium for a 9.6 CBCS book as for a 9.6 CGC.

 

The CBCS 9.6 JIM 83 in a recent Heritage auction is a good example. If that had been a CGC 9.6, it would`ve been high 6 figures.

 

I may be in the minority's here but I think they are looser across all grades. Enough in my opinion that I now don't even look at CBCS graded stuff any more.

 

That's been my experience in resubmitting their books to CGC.

 

 

This company has gone downhill with its poor grading .. Trying to take business away with a higher grade... I have lost respect for them and their current business plan, they had a chance at merging with cgc down the road... What a shame... Cgc has nothing to worry about they are in it for the short run and if I ended any of Stevens graded books I would submit them to cgc for regrade before the situation gets worse ...what a joke... They could of been a contender

 

That's an interesting take that most of you guys have on what's happening with the grading situation at the 2 companies. My own personal take for what it's worth and which I clearly stated about a year ago was that in the light of increasing competition, it appeared that CGC was on the verge of starting a grading war in an attempt to win back market share.

 

In this type of market, one way to gain market share is to ensure that your product receives a higher price in "equivalent" grade. As a result, I am not at all surprised that CGC graded books would in most cases be getting higher prices as compared to so-called "equivalent" from the other company. Although Mitch clearly believes this is due to overgrading by the other company, the opposite might possibly be true and it might actually be intentional undergrading by CGC with nothing changing at the other company, as per the following comment:

 

It's basically the same as when Steve and West were at CGC.

 

Is it possible that this is part of CGC's game plan for the past year in order to gain market share? Have you guys considered the possibility that CGC might have tightened their grades to such an extreme that they are now in most cases, undergrading their books? Yes, it would appear that the other company is looser as evident by books that have been resubmitted to CGC.

 

But it would also appear that many previously slabbed books graded by CGC themselves, are also being significantly downgraded id they are being resubmitted to CGC for slabbing during this extreme tightening period. Are the grades on your previously CGC slabbed books now invalid, considering the apparent much tougher grading that is now taking place at CGC? If you do decide to resubmit your books for their new and improved grading, it might be a good idea to send in your old labels in order to help guide them along the way in terms of regrading your books.

 

Although most of the GA collectors don't play the CPR game, it would appear that the BA collectors are not very happy with the grading that is currently being done by CGC, as evidenced by some of the following posts:

 

So heres the updated information.

CGC called me and senior graders agreed that the grading was "too strict"

the 9.2 that was graded 8.0 has been adjusted to 9.0

The 8.0 then went to a 7.0 has been turned back to 8.0

Thanks to the folks at CGC for correcting this issue.

 

 

Someone want to tell me again how CGC isn't being overly harsh right now? Those are huge swings in grade. Huge. That needs to be rectified quickly. I mean really even if Voldemort slabs are getting 10-15% less in price, if CGC is hammering books to this level for no good reason maybe its time to make a switch.

 

Actually, there is a reason for CGC to hammer books as they probably believe that undergraded books will result in higher prices which in turn will result in increased market share. But it's also possible that this could be short-term gain for long-term pain if enough customers can see what is happening.

 

Actually, the grades might not have been readjusted back up, but the original submittor was smart enough to have kept the original labels and resubmit them along with his request for a review of the grades.

 

 

CGC is in one of their PMS grading moods right now. I recently CPR'd several slabs, all improved in appearance, and all but one came back with the same or lower grades. In fact one of them was just a straight crack and resub -- what I thought was an undergraded book in a cracked holder -- it went from 9.6 to 9.2.

 

Bottom line... CGC is being extra picky right now and not consistent with previous standards.

 

 

Although it is normal to expect reasonable swings in grades since grading is not an exact science, I personally believe that professional grades that are moving from 9.6 down to 9.2 or from 9.2 down to 8.0 for books that have had nothing done to them in the interim is well beyond reasonable.

 

I usually submit around 50-100 books every year. I've done this for the past 5 years. I've had about a 75-80% success rate on guessing grades. My last submission I got 13 out of 56 right. All 43 of those I missed were lower than my guess but 2. Those 2 were one grade above. Quite a few were 9.0s and 9.2s that were imo easy 9.4-9.6s. I know its a small sample but the difference in a 9.0 and 9.6 is pretty substantial. I also didnt receive one graders note on the entire submission. Thats a first. Im all for having tight grading but being tight to the point of changing the standards of grading is not a good thing.

 

 

 

Bottom-line: Although overgrading is definitely not good for the marketplace, intentional undergrading is equally not good for the marketplace. Instead of trying to constantly adjust your grading standards to adapt to shifting market conditions, I personally believe that it is critical that a grading company grades their books as accurately and as consistently as possible. That's the best way to ensure that you win market share.

 

.

 

 

Outstanding post... Food for thought

[jimbo_707]

Most definitely not Magik's take on the grading situation.

 

I have spoken to him quite a few times, both before and after the auction, and he states emphatically that the grading with the other company is much tougher and much more consistent.

 

If so, he may literally be the only person who thinks this.

Certainly not at higher grades. The market has shown that it won`t pay the same kind of premium for a 9.6 CBCS book as for a 9.6 CGC.

 

The CBCS 9.6 JIM 83 in a recent Heritage auction is a good example. If that had been a CGC 9.6, it would`ve been high 6 figures.

 

I may be in the minority's here but I think they are looser across all grades. Enough in my opinion that I now don't even look at CBCS graded stuff any more.

 

That's been my experience in resubmitting their books to CGC.

 

 

This company has gone downhill with its poor grading .. Trying to take business away with a higher grade... I have lost respect for them and their current business plan, they had a chance at merging with cgc down the road... What a shame... Cgc has nothing to worry about they are in it for the short run and if I ended any of Stevens graded books I would submit them to cgc for regrade before the situation gets worse ...what a joke... They could of been a contender

 

That's an interesting take that most of you guys have on what's happening with the grading situation at the 2 companies. My own personal take for what it's worth and which I clearly stated about a year ago was that in the light of increasing competition, it appeared that CGC was on the verge of starting a grading war in an attempt to win back market share.

 

In this type of market, one way to gain market share is to ensure that your product receives a higher price in "equivalent" grade. As a result, I am not at all surprised that CGC graded books would in most cases be getting higher prices as compared to so-called "equivalent" from the other company. Although Mitch clearly believes this is due to overgrading by the other company, the opposite might possibly be true and it might actually be intentional undergrading by CGC with nothing changing at the other company, as per the following comment:

 

It's basically the same as when Steve and West were at CGC.

 

Is it possible that this is part of CGC's game plan for the past year in order to gain market share? Have you guys considered the possibility that CGC might have tightened their grades to such an extreme that they are now in most cases, undergrading their books? Yes, it would appear that the other company is looser as evident by books that have been resubmitted to CGC.

 

But it would also appear that many previously slabbed books graded by CGC themselves, are also being significantly downgraded id they are being resubmitted to CGC for slabbing during this extreme tightening period. Are the grades on your previously CGC slabbed books now invalid, considering the apparent much tougher grading that is now taking place at CGC? If you do decide to resubmit your books for their new and improved grading, it might be a good idea to send in your old labels in order to help guide them along the way in terms of regrading your books.

 

Although most of the GA collectors don't play the CPR game, it would appear that the BA collectors are not very happy with the grading that is currently being done by CGC, as evidenced by some of the following posts:

 

So heres the updated information.

CGC called me and senior graders agreed that the grading was "too strict"

the 9.2 that was graded 8.0 has been adjusted to 9.0

The 8.0 then went to a 7.0 has been turned back to 8.0

Thanks to the folks at CGC for correcting this issue.

 

 

Someone want to tell me again how CGC isn't being overly harsh right now? Those are huge swings in grade. Huge. That needs to be rectified quickly. I mean really even if Voldemort slabs are getting 10-15% less in price, if CGC is hammering books to this level for no good reason maybe its time to make a switch.

 

Actually, there is a reason for CGC to hammer books as they probably believe that undergraded books will result in higher prices which in turn will result in increased market share. But it's also possible that this could be short-term gain for long-term pain if enough customers can see what is happening.

 

Actually, the grades might not have been readjusted back up, but the original submittor was smart enough to have kept the original labels and resubmit them along with his request for a review of the grades.

 

 

CGC is in one of their PMS grading moods right now. I recently CPR'd several slabs, all improved in appearance, and all but one came back with the same or lower grades. In fact one of them was just a straight crack and resub -- what I thought was an undergraded book in a cracked holder -- it went from 9.6 to 9.2.

 

Bottom line... CGC is being extra picky right now and not consistent with previous standards.

 

 

Although it is normal to expect reasonable swings in grades since grading is not an exact science, I personally believe that professional grades that are moving from 9.6 down to 9.2 or from 9.2 down to 8.0 for books that have had nothing done to them in the interim is well beyond reasonable.

 

I usually submit around 50-100 books every year. I've done this for the past 5 years. I've had about a 75-80% success rate on guessing grades. My last submission I got 13 out of 56 right. All 43 of those I missed were lower than my guess but 2. Those 2 were one grade above. Quite a few were 9.0s and 9.2s that were imo easy 9.4-9.6s. I know its a small sample but the difference in a 9.0 and 9.6 is pretty substantial. I also didnt receive one graders note on the entire submission. Thats a first. Im all for having tight grading but being tight to the point of changing the standards of grading is not a good thing.

 

 

 

Bottom-line: Although overgrading is definitely not good for the marketplace, intentional undergrading is equally not good for the marketplace. Instead of trying to constantly adjust your grading standards to adapt to shifting market conditions, I personally believe that it is critical that a grading company grades their books as accurately and as consistently as possible. That's the best way to ensure that you win market share.

 

.

 

 

Outstanding post... Food for thought

It`s food for thought but also just a theory. In looking at the books in the latest round of auctions, most of the recent CGC grades look reasonable, and most of SB`s grades look way too loose. CGC went through a loose period several years ago, but they`ve gotten back on track in recent years. My biggest criticism of them had been that they were too loose with 9.6`s and 9.8s--grading books with color-breaking spine ticks as 9.6, for instance--so maybe they`ve just addressed particular areas of weakness where their grading wasn`t strict enough.

[Mmehdy]

Most definitely not Magik's take on the grading situation.

 

I have spoken to him quite a few times, both before and after the auction, and he states emphatically that the grading with the other company is much tougher and much more consistent.

 

If so, he may literally be the only person who thinks this.

Certainly not at higher grades. The market has shown that it won`t pay the same kind of premium for a 9.6 CBCS book as for a 9.6 CGC.

 

The CBCS 9.6 JIM 83 in a recent Heritage auction is a good example. If that had been a CGC 9.6, it would`ve been high 6 figures.

 

I may be in the minority's here but I think they are looser across all grades. Enough in my opinion that I now don't even look at CBCS graded stuff any more.

 

That's been my experience in resubmitting their books to CGC.

 

 

This company has gone downhill with its poor grading .. Trying to take business away with a higher grade... I have lost respect for them and their current business plan, they had a chance at merging with cgc down the road... What a shame... Cgc has nothing to worry about they are in it for the short run and if I ended any of Stevens graded books I would submit them to cgc for regrade before the situation gets worse ...what a joke... They could of been a contender

 

That's an interesting take that most of you guys have on what's happening with the grading situation at the 2 companies. My own personal take for what it's worth and which I clearly stated about a year ago was that in the light of increasing competition, it appeared that CGC was on the verge of starting a grading war in an attempt to win back market share.

 

In this type of market, one way to gain market share is to ensure that your product receives a higher price in "equivalent" grade. As a result, I am not at all surprised that CGC graded books would in most cases be getting higher prices as compared to so-called "equivalent" from the other company. Although Mitch clearly believes this is due to overgrading by the other company, the opposite might possibly be true and it might actually be intentional undergrading by CGC with nothing changing at the other company, as per the following comment:

 

It's basically the same as when Steve and West were at CGC.

 

Is it possible that this is part of CGC's game plan for the past year in order to gain market share? Have you guys considered the possibility that CGC might have tightened their grades to such an extreme that they are now in most cases, undergrading their books? Yes, it would appear that the other company is looser as evident by books that have been resubmitted to CGC.

 

But it would also appear that many previously slabbed books graded by CGC themselves, are also being significantly downgraded id they are being resubmitted to CGC for slabbing during this extreme tightening period. Are the grades on your previously CGC slabbed books now invalid, considering the apparent much tougher grading that is now taking place at CGC? If you do decide to resubmit your books for their new and improved grading, it might be a good idea to send in your old labels in order to help guide them along the way in terms of regrading your books.

 

Although most of the GA collectors don't play the CPR game, it would appear that the BA collectors are not very happy with the grading that is currently being done by CGC, as evidenced by some of the following posts:

 

So heres the updated information.

CGC called me and senior graders agreed that the grading was "too strict"

the 9.2 that was graded 8.0 has been adjusted to 9.0

The 8.0 then went to a 7.0 has been turned back to 8.0

Thanks to the folks at CGC for correcting this issue.

 

 

Someone want to tell me again how CGC isn't being overly harsh right now? Those are huge swings in grade. Huge. That needs to be rectified quickly. I mean really even if Voldemort slabs are getting 10-15% less in price, if CGC is hammering books to this level for no good reason maybe its time to make a switch.

 

Actually, there is a reason for CGC to hammer books as they probably believe that undergraded books will result in higher prices which in turn will result in increased market share. But it's also possible that this could be short-term gain for long-term pain if enough customers can see what is happening.

 

Actually, the grades might not have been readjusted back up, but the original submittor was smart enough to have kept the original labels and resubmit them along with his request for a review of the grades.

 

 

CGC is in one of their PMS grading moods right now. I recently CPR'd several slabs, all improved in appearance, and all but one came back with the same or lower grades. In fact one of them was just a straight crack and resub -- what I thought was an undergraded book in a cracked holder -- it went from 9.6 to 9.2.

 

Bottom line... CGC is being extra picky right now and not consistent with previous standards.

 

 

Although it is normal to expect reasonable swings in grades since grading is not an exact science, I personally believe that professional grades that are moving from 9.6 down to 9.2 or from 9.2 down to 8.0 for books that have had nothing done to them in the interim is well beyond reasonable.

 

I usually submit around 50-100 books every year. I've done this for the past 5 years. I've had about a 75-80% success rate on guessing grades. My last submission I got 13 out of 56 right. All 43 of those I missed were lower than my guess but 2. Those 2 were one grade above. Quite a few were 9.0s and 9.2s that were imo easy 9.4-9.6s. I know its a small sample but the difference in a 9.0 and 9.6 is pretty substantial. I also didnt receive one graders note on the entire submission. Thats a first. Im all for having tight grading but being tight to the point of changing the standards of grading is not a good thing.

 

 

 

Bottom-line: Although overgrading is definitely not good for the marketplace, intentional undergrading is equally not good for the marketplace. Instead of trying to constantly adjust your grading standards to adapt to shifting market conditions, I personally believe that it is critical that a grading company grades their books as accurately and as consistently as possible. That's the best way to ensure that you win market share.

 

.

 

 

Outstanding post... Food for thought

It`s food for thought but also just a theory. In looking at the books in the latest round of auctions, most of the recent CGC grades look reasonable, and most of SB`s grades look way too loose. CGC went through a loose period several years ago, but they`ve gotten back on track in recent years. My biggest criticism of them had been that they were too loose with 9.6`s and 9.8s--grading books with color-breaking spine ticks as 9.6, for instance--so maybe they`ve just addressed particular areas of weakness where their grading wasn`t strict enough.

 

we all agree that a war is going on between SB and CGC, we all agree SB blew by going after short term profits rather than hang in toe to toe and then merge.....disappointing is an understatement . Instead of making both companies better they are both gonna get worse..but he auction results speak for themselves, if you have a major major book...SB is out...unless you are just plain dumb.

[Johnny545]

GA selection at HA is scant this time around. Just one day for the comic portion of the auction?

 

Clink has certainly filled out though, Action 7, nice run of All Winners and Jumbo's.

[Sqeggs]

GA selection at HA is scant this time around. Just one day for the comic portion of the auction?

 

Clink has certainly filled out though, Action 7, nice run of All Winners and Jumbo's.

 

Friday and Sunday are comics; Saturday is OA. I think that's the same pattern as recent auctions.

[G.A.tor]

GA selection at HA is scant this time around. Just one day for the comic portion of the auction?

 

Clink has certainly filled out though, Action 7, nice run of All Winners and Jumbo's.

 

Friday and Sunday are comics; Saturday is OA. I think that's the same pattern as recent auctions.

been thurs and sat for comics and fri for oa...this is a move back a day...interesting

[Sqeggs]

GA selection at HA is scant this time around. Just one day for the comic portion of the auction?

 

Clink has certainly filled out though, Action 7, nice run of All Winners and Jumbo's.

 

Friday and Sunday are comics; Saturday is OA. I think that's the same pattern as recent auctions.

been thurs and sat for comics and fri for oa...this is a move back a day...interesting

 

Right you are. I was thinking something was a little out of whack. It is odd that they would have the second comic session on Sunday because they are also running their regular Sunday night auction. Maybe the Thursday auctions were underperforming?

[MrBedrock]

GA selection at HA is scant this time around. Just one day for the comic portion of the auction?

 

Clink has certainly filled out though, Action 7, nice run of All Winners and Jumbo's.

 

Friday and Sunday are comics; Saturday is OA. I think that's the same pattern as recent auctions.

been thurs and sat for comics and fri for oa...this is a move back a day...interesting

 

Right you are. I was thinking something was a little out of whack. It is odd that they would have the second comic session on Sunday because they are also running their regular Sunday night auction. Maybe the Thursday auctions were underperforming?

Session 3 is Saturday. Comics and Art.

Session 1 (Comics) and 2 (Art) are on Friday.

There aren't any lots on Sunday.

[Sqeggs]

GA selection at HA is scant this time around. Just one day for the comic portion of the auction?

 

Clink has certainly filled out though, Action 7, nice run of All Winners and Jumbo's.

 

Friday and Sunday are comics; Saturday is OA. I think that's the same pattern as recent auctions.

been thurs and sat for comics and fri for oa...this is a move back a day...interesting

 

Right you are. I was thinking something was a little out of whack. It is odd that they would have the second comic session on Sunday because they are also running their regular Sunday night auction. Maybe the Thursday auctions were underperforming?

Session 3 is Saturday. Comics and Art.

Session 1 (Comics) and 2 (Art) are on Friday.

There aren't any lots on Sunday.

 

Oy! I only read the first page of the catalog three times without managing to read it correctly.

 

Be interesting to know the reason for the scheduling change. As I mentioned above, probably having the best comics auctioned during the day on Thursdays wasn't getting the results they (and their consignors) wanted.

[Mmehdy]

typical pay day 5/15...13/14 prime time

[cheta42]

Is this Whiz #2(1)underperforming in this auction

 

http://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/whiz-comics-2-1-incomplete-fawcett-publications-1940-cgc-pr-05-slightly-brittle-pages/a/7137-91118.s?type=bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus

[AJD]

Is this Whiz #2(1)underperforming in this auction

 

http://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/whiz-comics-2-1-incomplete-fawcett-publications-1940-cgc-pr-05-slightly-brittle-pages/a/7137-91118.s?type=bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus

 

No back cover, front cover detached, panel torn out of p2 and slightly brittle pages... seems to be doing OK, I'd have thought.

[gino2paulus2]

Is this Whiz #2(1)underperforming in this auction

 

http://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/whiz-comics-2-1-incomplete-fawcett-publications-1940-cgc-pr-05-slightly-brittle-pages/a/7137-91118.s?type=bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus

 

No back cover, front cover detached, panel torn out of p2 and slightly brittle pages... seems to be doing OK, I'd have thought.

 

Won't know till it's over . Lots of people don't bid until the actual auction. A book can sky rocket quickly in that setting. With the beautiful 3.0 with white pages selling for around 53k I think it's doing alright for pre-auction bidding at 7.2K. Heck a C-OW complete 1.0 sold for less than 9k in 2014. This is a nice looking entry level copy and the market seems hot right now. I expect it to go higher but not TONs higher.

[The_Captain]

If I remember correctly, this should be the Whiz #2 Jerry Robinson copy that sold last through All Star a few years ago

[G.A.tor]

ahh....to bid or not to bid....the CMA 1 would fit perfectly in my collection...but knowing that I could have bought for 1/2 where it is currently at is dissuading me a bit...what to do...what to do...

[SuperBird]

a few irons in the fire. let's see...

[nearmint]

ahh....to bid or not to bid....the CMA 1 would fit perfectly in my collection...but knowing that I could have bought for 1/2 where it is currently at is dissuading me a bit...what to do...what to do...

 

Last summer's price is kind of irrelevant at this point, isn't it?

[nearmint]

Strange that 5 of the first 10 lots have been withdrawn.

[G.A.tor]

ahh....to bid or not to bid....the CMA 1 would fit perfectly in my collection...but knowing that I could have bought for 1/2 where it is currently at is dissuading me a bit...what to do...what to do...

 

Last summer's price is kind of irrelevant at this point, isn't it?

its the ole "regret" card

[nearmint]

ahh....to bid or not to bid....the CMA 1 would fit perfectly in my collection...but knowing that I could have bought for 1/2 where it is currently at is dissuading me a bit...what to do...what to do...

 

Last summer's price is kind of irrelevant at this point, isn't it?

its the ole "regret" card

 

I remember sitting at Richard's booth at SDCC, and saying to him, "doesn't 18K seem like a pretty good deal for the highest graded copy of a Golden Age key?" But like you, I didn't take the plunge.