90's "Variants"

[ygogolak]

Obviously there are many people who are comparing the current state of comics to the large sales that happened in the early 90's. I see many comments that try to relate the current state of variants to the 90's variants / market.

 

As a collector who just started collecting that time, what types of variants were there during that time?

I don't remember incentive variants. Maybe you had a foil cover vs. non-foil, same image. Of course, the best selling comic of all time X-Men #1 had different covers, A, B, C, etc...but they were not incentive based, correct? So how are these comparable?

 

Let's try and keep this thread to variants. Save a more general thread on comparing the 90's crash for things like: current popularity of comic book based movies and TV shows, large amounts of merchandise specifically aimed at children and the overlap of pop culture and comics (ie. SDCC).

[jsilverjanet]

I believe the similarities are the amount of books being order by the comic shop (in order to obtain the variant) vs the amount of those regular copies being sold

 

the same thing happened in the 90s when comic shops order a large number of those #1s, holofoils etc and actual sales weren't the same

 

both scenarios you see a lot of regular issues left unsold

 

 

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

that's not the only one and there are different interpretations on why people compare one era to another but that's the one i see the most when i go to different shops that rely heavy on the variant buyer

[valiantman]

Obviously there are many people who are comparing the current state of comics to the large sales that happened in the early 90's. I see many comments that try to relate the current state of variants to the 90's variants / market.

 

As a collector who just started collecting that time, what types of variants were there during that time?

 

I'm not sure that "variants" is the right word for what was happening in the 1990s.

"Enhancements" (more commonly worded as "gimmicks") is probably a better description.

 

Lots of regular comic books were selling 250,000 copies, but when a publisher would announce a "hologram on the cover" or "polybagged collector's edition" or "chromium-enhanced" version, or even something as simple as a new "#1", the sales would triple or more.

 

At the time of the Death of Superman (the actual event, Superman #75), the black poly-bagged collector's edition was sold out... even though there were millions of them.

That same day was the release of the first chromium cover (not full chromium, just chromium-on-cover), Bloodshot #1... 600,000 copies, also sold out.

 

Both books were immediately more valuable than the cover price, according to publications and convention sales... brand new books hoarded, speculated, flipped, and "collected" to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars "invested" for a single buyer.

 

It's that last statement that is what is mirroring the current "variant" market and causing the comparisons to the 1990s.

 

Brands new books hoarded, speculated, flipped, and "collected" to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars "invested" for a single buyer.

 

In the case of current books, that hundreds or thousands of dollars can be one buyer and one book.

 

The "investment" in the 1990s "enhanced" comics didn't work out well for most people.

The "investment" in the 2010s "variant" comics [still to be determined] for most people.

 

The comparison is valid, even if the quantities are very different.

The comics are still new comics, and the amount of money at risk is the same.

[ygogolak]

I see what you're saying, but it's all speculation if you will.

What you're saying about the current market is that people buy variants because they "will" appreciate in value and then they can sell them for a profit.

I personally know a number of people who buy variants only for their personal collection. Is this the case for all buyers of variants? Of course not, but we have no way to determine who is buying what for what reason.

 

If a buyer stays away from shop variants and doesn't get caught up in the JSC or Dell Otto or next buzz artist and buy when prices are at their peak, they should be fine. If you are buying every 1:100 at time of release thinking they are going to increase in value, that's flawed logic and there is evidence now to prove that doesn't happen.

 

Shop owners may have lots of regular copies of books sitting around to get the incentives, but if they are a true business owner, they should be able to determine what sells in terms of demand and price. If they order 100 copies to get a variant, they should be able to determine what to charge for the variant and how many will sell of the regular cover to break even and then determine their profits after that.

[valiantman]

Some people buy variants because they want them for the personal collection and don't care if they go up in value. That's not speculation... it's just collecting. However, some people buy variants because they DO want to sell them for a profit in the future... or at least break even.

 

When the money is tied up in the comics and the "hype" moves on to whatever is next, then the bulk of the money is potentially lost forever.

 

In the 1990s, thousands of dollars were tied up in recent comics and eventually bills needed to be paid and the books weren't worth anything to the next buyer. They were dumped at a fraction of their purchase cost... and it happened to lots of buyers (retailers and collectors) in a short time frame. We had an industry-wide crash.

 

In the 2010s, thousands of dollars can be tied up in a single recent comic, which basically screams that there is MORE risk than the 1990s. If bills need to be paid and the next buyer doesn't want to pay thousands of dollars, then the book either goes unsold or it is "dumped" at a fraction of the purchase cost.

 

I don't believe we can have a (similar) crash again, because there aren't thousands of buyers who are putting thousands of dollars into variants. There are a few. Those few might be taking big risks, but the worst-case risks of a few won't cause a crash for the industry. When there are hundreds of thousands of books being "speculated", it would be like the 1990s again. Currently, there are just a few big dollar recent books... spread across various titles and variants. There aren't hundreds of people with cases of the same new comic (like the 1990s).

 

The risk to the industry as a whole is lower, but for the single collector of big, big variant books, there's no option to sell a few (dozen) copies to recoup some of the costs if all that money is tied up in one book.

[1Cool]

I see the biggest similarity is comic books being considered a commodity that wasn't read and enjoyed but instead instantly bagged and boarded in batches of 10 because of the cool cover. In the 90s pretty much your mother, brother and the baker had long boxes of "hot" books in their closet with the knowledge they would be worth tons in the future while almost non of them actually read the books or felt any connection to any of the characters. Now its all about the variant cover and who cares about the inside story. Pretty covers without any substance has been around for a while but without the collector connection things just don't seem to go well for books.

 

I think that argument could segway into the current hot movie books or graded books but that's hitting a little close to home for me to go down that path.

[ygogolak]

Where is this information coming from though? That people without means are dumping all of their money into speculative comics?

[valiantman]

I see the biggest similarity is comic books being considered a commodity that wasn't read and enjoyed but instead instantly bagged and boarded in batches of 10 because of the cool cover. In the 90s pretty much your mother, brother and the baker had long boxes of "hot" books in their closet with the knowledge they would be worth tons in the future while almost non of them actually read the books or felt any connection to any of the characters. Now its all about the variant cover and who cares about the inside story. Pretty covers without any substance has been around for a while but without the collector connection things just don't seem to go well for books.

 

I think that argument could segway into the current hot movie books or graded books but that's hitting a little close to home for me to go down that path.

There's a difference, though, for the currently hot movie books which are decades old. Even a modern issue like Preacher #1 is over 20 years old.

They aren't being "speculated" as they roll off the printer. There might be (originally) hundreds of thousands of some of them, but most copies will never come back to market. Many are simply destroyed as the years pass... especially if they were "common" issues for decades. No need to save the "worthless" ones.

[valiantman]

Where is this information coming from though? That people without means are dumping all of their money into speculative comics?

If you think that only the wealthy without a financial care are buying up the variants, then I'd have to say you're the most optimistic economist on the planet.

[valiantman]

Sticking with the original topic, the 1990s "variants" that caused the most (eventual) problems in the market were the Return of Superman books, specifically the white-bagged Adv. of Superman #500 and the deluxe edition die-cut four books introducing alternate Supermen. Each one was a more expensive "variant" compared to the regular edition.

 

Those 5 "variant" books alone sold more than 10,000,000 copies in one month.... June 1993. The Top 300 books from March 2016 only totalled a little more than 6,000,000 copies. The Top 5 total 600,000 copies today.

 

Dealers who ordered too heavily for June 1993 hoping for another Superman #75 result may have had to close their doors by the end of 1994. Books like Turok #1, Batman #500, X-Men #300, and Darker Image #1 were also heavily-ordered, but even those had a lower print than those 5 issues from D.C. Unless something has changed recently... all 5 books are still worthless today... almost 23 years later.

[revat]

Where is this information coming from though? That people without means are dumping all of their money into speculative comics?

If you think that only the wealthy without a financial care are buying up the variants, then I'd have to say you're the most optimistic economist on the planet.

 

or just one of the worst.

[ygogolak]

I see the biggest similarity is comic books being considered a commodity that wasn't read and enjoyed but instead instantly bagged and boarded in batches of 10 because of the cool cover. In the 90s pretty much your mother, brother and the baker had long boxes of "hot" books in their closet with the knowledge they would be worth tons in the future while almost non of them actually read the books or felt any connection to any of the characters. Now its all about the variant cover and who cares about the inside story. Pretty covers without any substance has been around for a while but without the collector connection things just don't seem to go well for books.

 

I think that argument could segway into the current hot movie books or graded books but that's hitting a little close to home for me to go down that path.

 

Yes, that's very true. I bought a tub of comics off a guy on craigslist. Over half were Superman 75's (3rd prints). He had ordered / bought a case when they came out from a shop. He didn't seem to really know anything about comics. One of those "well comics aren't worth anything anymore" types.

[ygogolak]

Where is this information coming from though? That people without means are dumping all of their money into speculative comics?

If you think that only the wealthy without a financial care are buying up the variants, then I'd have to say you're the most optimistic economist on the planet.

 

Ha, of course not. There are the people that live in poverty and get rims on their new SUV, but there are also people who make 6 figures and still drive a Honda Accord. All that boils downs to is simple money management. It just seems like the mannerism of this forum is that EVERYONE is buying variants to flip them and they are going to be living out of treehouse made of worthless comics later.

 

[ygogolak]

Sticking with the original topic, the 1990s "variants" that caused the most (eventual) problems in the market were the Return of Superman books, specifically the white-bagged Adv. of Superman #500 and the deluxe edition die-cut four books introducing alternate Supermen. Each one was a more expensive "variant" compared to the regular edition.

 

Those 5 "variant" books alone sold more than 10,000,000 copies in one month.... June 1993. The Top 300 books from March 2016 only totalled a little more than 6,000,000 copies. The Top 5 total 600,000 copies today.

 

Dealers who ordered too heavily for June 1993 hoping for another Superman #75 result may have had to close their doors by the end of 1994. Books like Turok #1, Batman #500, X-Men #300, and Darker Image #1 were also heavily-ordered, but even those had a lower print than those 5 issues from D.C. Unless something has changed recently... all 5 books are still worthless today... almost 23 years later.

 

So the new DC 3D covers basically.

[Aweandlorder]

This was the 1st retailer variant I remember thats almost true to todays standards..

Featuring a whole new cover not just a diff color scheme/diff cover design

Distributed exclusively to retailers (although not at a 1: ratio)

Created a HUGE buzz and skyrocketed in price almost immediately

 

[1Cool]

Sticking with the original topic, the 1990s "variants" that caused the most (eventual) problems in the market were the Return of Superman books, specifically the white-bagged Adv. of Superman #500 and the deluxe edition die-cut four books introducing alternate Supermen. Each one was a more expensive "variant" compared to the regular edition.

 

Those 5 "variant" books alone sold more than 10,000,000 copies in one month.... June 1993. The Top 300 books from March 2016 only totalled a little more than 6,000,000 copies. The Top 5 total 600,000 copies today.

 

Dealers who ordered too heavily for June 1993 hoping for another Superman #75 result may have had to close their doors by the end of 1994. Books like Turok #1, Batman #500, X-Men #300, and Darker Image #1 were also heavily-ordered, but even those had a lower print than those 5 issues from D.C. Unless something has changed recently... all 5 books are still worthless today... almost 23 years later.

 

So the new DC 3D covers basically.

 

In concept pretty much the same thing but the magnitude is different. If you tallied up all the DC 3d cover books you would probably equal the number of X-Men 1 books (5 different covers) that were sold. Two million copies of a single book was printed! 2,000,000 of those bad boys floating around.

[1Cool]

This was the 1st retailer variant I remember thats almost true to todays standards..

Featuring a whole new cover not just a diff color scheme/diff cover design

Distributed exclusively to retailers (although not at a 1: ratio)

Created a HUGE buzz and skyrocketed in price almost immediately

 

 

I remember so wanting that book and couldn't afford it. It hit pretty much at the tail end of the black and white crazy.

[HarveySwick]

Gimmick > Substance

Speculation > Collecting

 

90's - This #1 is a can't miss. It'll be the next Harbinger #1

Now - This #1 is a can't miss. It'll be the next Walking Dead #1

 

90's - Chromium covers

Now - 1:25/1:100 Variants

 

 

[ygogolak]

Gimmick > Substance

Speculation > Collecting

 

90's - This #1 is a can't miss. It'll be the next Harbinger #1

Now - This #1 is a can't miss. It'll be the next Walking Dead #1

 

90's - Chromium covers

Now - 1:25/1:100 Variants

 

 

Agree with the first one. Although, even that has started to wain a little with so many books getting optioned and not moving forward.

 

Chromium's WERE the covers for the most part. They were not variants and that is where I see the discrepancy. It's different cover art.