CAPTAIN MARVEL starring Brie Larson (3/8/19) 5 5

[Prince Namor]

And here Sweet Lou thought I was going on and on for no reason!

Having been here for almost 10 years, I was well aware of the people hanging out in the bush's on the side of this debate, waiting to add their hateful two cents.

 

[Bosco685]

26 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Why aren't all of you Mary Sue guys haunting the DC movie threads repeatedly calling Superman a Gary Stu?  He's a FAR purer wish fulfillment vehicle of Simon and Schuster than Carol Danvers is for Roy Thomas.

I ask that, of course, already knowing what the answer is.  You're male chauvinist pigs.  I like to pretend I'm one of those from time to time, so I feel a slight kinship.

Probably because it gets buried deep, mixed in with the statements of 'not my Superman', claims of dystopian storytelling, complaints about how he doesn't smile or that he doesn't save lives. But if you dig deep enough...

[theCapraAegagrus]

16 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

See...here's the thing. Captain Marvel is very much analogous to Green Lantern...because it's *not just* the Tesseract that gives her the power -- it's the stone *in combination* with the human resilience that she possessed all along -- this is clearly explained by Yon-Rogg.

It's not just the stone -- it's that she is also particularly worthy to wield it too. The combination is what gives her the power.

Your other complaint seems primarily that we don't see her struggle with her new-found power.

That presumes that we have to see that in every superhero origin movie.

We don't.

Particularly because the film itself starts when she's already a seasoned Kree space warrior, and then flashes back to events in her life when she was a mere mortal.

 

IMO we do, otherwise it creates a "leveling" problem, in that they can pretty much do whatever they want with any unexplained character. It leads to a lack of stakes, no gravity, and nothing to make stories with superheroes compelling.

If you don't agree with that then we have to agree to disagree.

[Prince Namor]

2 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

IMO we do, otherwise it creates a "leveling" problem, in that they can pretty much do whatever they want with any unexplained character. It leads to a lack of stakes, no gravity, and nothing to make stories with superheroes compelling.

If you don't agree with that then we have to agree to disagree.

Right, it didn't work for YOU. For a lot of other people it was plenty compelling in it's story.

Of course, we also now know that you're opinion is tainted by your anti-female rhetoric, giving it zero credence.

[Bosco685]

47 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

In the comic books, Carol Danvers receives her powers when she's caught in the explosion of a Kree device and her DNA merges with Captain Marvel. 

  Hide contents

In the movie, she absorbs power from the space stone when she destroys a Kree (made) device to protect it from falling into the hands of the Kree who kill Mar-vell to get it.

Very similar, but the movie origin actually is BETTER.

Thank you for pointing this out. I had never read her origin prior to now. Though during my early intro to The Avengers she was part of the stories I was reading (Korvac Saga). It was confusing for a little bit when I was getting into these characters as a kid and then the next comic book it looked like they were all dead. Surprise! They lived. 

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Bosco685

[theCapraAegagrus]

37 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Why aren't all of you Mary Sue guys haunting the DC movie threads repeatedly calling Superman a Gary Stu?  He's a FAR purer wish fulfillment vehicle of Simon and Schuster than Carol Danvers is for Roy Thomas.

I ask that, of course, already knowing what the answer is.  You're male chauvinist pigs.  I like to pretend I'm one of those from time to time, so I feel a slight kinship.

Man of Steel tells you why Superman is so powerful and great at everything - but he doesn't overcome everything with ease. He has to kill Zod and the last of his kind. He keeps his identity a secret. He does have weaknesses - Lois and his mother - and kryptonite.

He's not a Gary Sue. I also said that Carol Danvers isn't a Mary Sue because of her McGuffinery. Which is why the McGuffins have to go with Endgame. They can't keep these shenanigans around the MCU and expect people to find even more "Supermen" characters compelling. The ones that already exist - Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Captain Marvel - already aren't compelling.

[Prince Namor]

4 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Man of Steel tells you why Superman is so powerful and great at everything - but he doesn't overcome everything with ease. He has to kill Zod and the last of his kind. He keeps his identity a secret. He does have weaknesses - Lois and his mother - and kryptonite.

He's not a Gary Sue. I also said that Carol Danvers isn't a Mary Sue because of her McGuffinery. Which is why the McGuffins have to go with Endgame. They can't keep these shenanigans around the MCU and expect people to find even more "Supermen" characters compelling. The ones that already exist - Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Captain Marvel - already aren't compelling.

Yeah, losing all of your memories and loved ones and being used by an alien race for six years - nothing abnormal there. Duh.

[Prince Namor]

Can you imagine having amnesia? Suddenly everyone you knew and loved and trusted were unknown to you?

Imagine, waking up in a bed you didn't recognize, surrounded by people you didn't recognize - with no identification or information about who you were. No one to call, no one to turn to...

But someone says, "Trust me - THIS is who you are."

And six years later you find out it was all a lie. That's NOT who you are.

And you meet people who DO seem to know you... but you have no real memory of them...

 

Yeah, sorry. That'd be a nightmare to go through.

[Gatsby77]

21 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Man of Steel tells you why Superman is so powerful and great at everything - but he doesn't overcome everything with ease. He has to kill Zod and the last of his kind. He keeps his identity a secret. He does have weaknesses - Lois and his mother - and kryptonite.

He's not a Gary Sue. I also said that Carol Danvers isn't a Mary Sue because of her McGuffinery. Which is why the McGuffins have to go with Endgame. They can't keep these shenanigans around the MCU and expect people to find even more "Supermen" characters compelling. The ones that already exist - Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Captain Marvel - already aren't compelling.

Okay - I confess.

I meant it yesterday when I noted I was impressed that no one in this thread had (yet) literally accused Ms. Marvel of being a "Mary Sue."

It was bait - a trap. Because she's *obviously* not -- you can't be a Mary Sue if you've literally been more powerful than Superman since your introduction -- but just umm...happen to be female too.

Ms. Marvel's been one of Marvel Comics's most powerful (earth-based) heroes since her introduction um...more than 50 years ago.

The only one I can think of off-hand who is more powerful is The Sentry.

That's it.

She's been that powerful, she is that powerful. End of story.

Film-wise, ror instance, I didn't see Loki go through any struggle w/ his powers - he's just a god. Period.

Ditto Hela in Ragnarok.

Carol's intro had far more backstory (even depicting her pre-powers struggles) than either of those villains.

If Sentry were introduced to the films, would folks be whining so loud?

And if so, would it be more because

a) he's a Gary Sue plot device;

b) a D-list character - that old-school collectors couldn't stomach saving the likes of Thor, Iron Man or Spider-Man; or

c) that folks missed out on hoarding his first appearance while they were so certain it would be Warlock, not Captain Marvel or Sentry ?

Edited March 20, 2019 by Gatsby77

[Bosco685]

7 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Okay - I confess.

I meant it yesterday when I noted I was impressed that no one in this thread had (yet) literally accused Ms. Marvel of being a "Mary Sue."

It was bait - a trap. Because she's *obviously* not -- you can't be a Mary Sue if you've literally been more powerful than Superman since your introduction -- but just umm...happen to be female too.

You participate in a discussion in order to instigate a topic as a trap?! Congratulations - I think. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Okay - I confess.

I meant it yesterday when I noted I was impressed that no on in this thread had (yet) literally accused Ms. Marvel of being a "Mary Sue."

It was bait - a trap. Because she's *obviously* not -- you can't be a Mary Sue if you've literally been more powerful than Superman since your introduction -- but just umm...happen to be female too.

Ms. Marvel's been one of Marvel Comics's most powerful (earth-based) heroes since her introduction um...more than 50 years ago.

The only one I can think of off-hand who is more powerful is The Sentry.

That's it.

She's been that powerful, she is that powerful. End of story.

For instance, I didn't see Loki go through any struggle w/ his powers - he's just a god. Period.

Ditto Hela in Ragnarok.

Carol's intro had far more backstory (even depicting her pre-powers struggles) than either of those villains.

If Sentry were introduced to the films, would folks be whining so loud?

And if so, would it be more because

a) he's a Gary Sue plot device;

b) a D-list character - that old-school collector couldn't stomach saving the likes of Thor, Iron Man or Spider-Man; or

c) that folks missed out on hoarding his first appearance while they were so certain it would be Warlock, not Captain Marvel or Sentry ?

I don't think that Carol Danvers is more powerful than Kal-El... Regardless...

Thor and Loki are different stories. They're not humans. As you say - they're gods. They're born with god powers. They also pretty much defined their god powers in Thor. God of Thunder, God of Mischief, one has Mjolnir to focus his lightning powers, the other is adept at magic, etc etc etc.

Carol is an ascended human. She was given Kree blood, then was near a McGuffin engine explosion. For me, and most people, that isn't enough of a description to allow me to suspend disbelief and just "accept" that she's this Supergirl.

I've said, time and time again, regardless of gender, all characters need defining moments and exemplified powers. Vision and Scarlet Witch are equally as boring, but, they didn't have their own titular movie.

It's been the same way since Day 1 for me and most, so going forward, any and all superheroes (Sentry included) need defining character moments and defined powers. We need compelling characters and not OP ideals. Carol isn't even an ideal, that's why they needed to make her compelling, and they failed. Luckily - the movie isn't a total failure - despite these transgressions.

Normally the villains pop out of nowhere with huge power levels and lack of compelling traits. We root for the heroes to overcome these losers because we can't identify with them and "they're evil". Outside of the "evil" aspect, Carol is almost as one-dimensional as a weak MCU villain like Malekith or Ego.

[bentbryan]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

You participate in a discussion in order to instigate a topic as a trap?! Congratulations - I think. 

That seems to be the recurring theme here. Not the actual movie itself for which this thread was created. 

[fantastic_four]

9 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

you can't be a Mary Sue if you've literally been more powerful than Superman since your introduction -- but just umm...happen to be female too.

Ms. Marvel's been one of Marvel Comics's most powerful (earth-based) heroes since her introduction um...more than 50 years ago.

How is that the case?  50 years ago she only had the same near-invulnerability, strength, and flight powers that Rogue now has since she took them from her.  She didn't get her Superman-like powers until the Brood turned her into Binary in Uncanny X-Men #164 in 1982.

Also, this just occurred to me--Binary isn't invulnerable and strong like Ms. Marvel was, is she?  She can channel the power of a star, but I thought she lost her Ms. Marvel powers.  The film combined the two characters into someone more powerful than those two different versions of Carol Danvers ever was in the comics.

[fantastic_four]

I don't remember now--did the film establish her as invulnerable to physical harm?  Ms. Marvel was tough, but I'm not sure she was Superman invulnerable, and I don't remember what the film established on that.

[Prince Namor]

7 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

How is that the case?  50 years ago she only had the same near-invulnerability, strength, and flight powers that Rogue now has since she took them from her.  She didn't get her Superman-like powers until the Brood turned her into Binary in Uncanny X-Men #164 in 1982.

Also, this just occurred to me--Binary isn't invulnerable and strong like Ms. Marvel was, is she?  She can channel the power of a star, but I thought she lost her Ms. Marvel powers.  The film combined the two characters into someone more powerful than those two different versions of Carol Danvers ever was in the comics.

The level of Superman's powers have gone up and down over the years.

[Ken Aldred]

13 hours ago, Comicopolis said:

How is Thanos powerful enough - without the Gauntlet - to defeat both Thor and Hulk?

I don't remember seeing that explained.

His fists behave like Plot Gauntlets under some circumstances. 

[Bosco685]

7 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

How is that the case?  50 years ago she only had the same near-invulnerability, strength, and flight powers that Rogue now has since she took them from her.  She didn't get her Superman-like powers until the Brood turned her into Binary in Uncanny X-Men #164 in 1982.

Also, this just occurred to me--Binary isn't invulnerable and strong like Ms. Marvel was, is she?  She can channel the power of a star, but I thought she lost her Ms. Marvel powers.  The film combined the two characters into someone more powerful than those two different versions of Carol Danvers ever was in the comics.

I really do need to go back and read those Binary appearances.

Quote

Carol Danvers initially possessed superhuman strength, endurance, stamina, physical durability, a limited precognitive "seventh sense" and a perfectly amalgamated human/Kree physiology that rendered her resistant to most toxins and poisons. As Binary, the character could tap the energy of a "white hole", allowing full control and manipulation of stellar energies, and therefore control over heat, the electromagnetic spectrum and gravity. Light speed travel and the ability to survive in the vacuum of space were also possible. She originally only had the power of flight thanks to a contraption under her suit.

 

Although the link to the white hole was eventually severed, Danvers retains her Binary powers on a smaller scale, enabling her to both absorb energy and project it in photonic form. She can also still survive in space. While she lacks a constant source of energy to maintain the abilities at their previous cosmic level, she can temporarily assume her Binary form if empowered with a high enough infusion of energy.

 

Danvers possesses superhuman strength and durability, can fly at roughly six times the speed of sound, retains her "seventh sense", and can discharge explosive blasts of radiant energy, which she fires from her fingertips. She also demonstrates the ability to absorb other forms of energy, such as electricity, to further magnify her strength and energy projection, up to the force of an exploding nuclear weapon. When sufficiently augmented, she can withstand the pressure from a ninety-two-ton weight, and strike with a similar level of force, although Hank Pym theorized that this likely was not her limit. Danvers cannot absorb magical energy without consequence, though she aided Dr. Stephen Strange in the defeat of the mystic menace, Sir Warren Traveler.

 

[Prince Namor]

Just now, fantastic_four said:

I don't remember now--did the film establish her as invulnerable to physical harm?  Ms. Marvel was tough, but I'm not sure she was Superman invulnerable, and I don't remember what the film established on that.

I don't believe so. And her mask comes on in space, so I assume she can't survive in that environment.

[fantastic_four]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

8 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

How is that the case?  50 years ago she only had the same near-invulnerability, strength, and flight powers that Rogue now has since she took them from her.  She didn't get her Superman-like powers until the Brood turned her into Binary in Uncanny X-Men #164 in 1982.

Also, this just occurred to me--Binary isn't invulnerable and strong like Ms. Marvel was, is she?  She can channel the power of a star, but I thought she lost her Ms. Marvel powers.  The film combined the two characters into someone more powerful than those two different versions of Carol Danvers ever was in the comics.

The level of Superman's powers have gone up and down over the years.

That's author variance.  In the case of Carol Danvers, one author took her powers away entirely and another granted her a completely different set of powers.

[fantastic_four]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

2 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

I don't remember now--did the film establish her as invulnerable to physical harm?  Ms. Marvel was tough, but I'm not sure she was Superman invulnerable, and I don't remember what the film established on that.

I don't believe so. And her mask comes on in space, so I assume she can't survive in that environment.

It did, and at the very end she ditched it.  I assumed she didn't realize the first time that she could survive in space, but by the end she somehow had discovered it.  Binary had that ability in the comic.