CAPTAIN MARVEL starring Brie Larson (3/8/19) 5 5

[drotto]

16 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

 

Sure, you can find instances where he shows some emotion - I can show instances where Brie does as well - when she shouts back at the Sjrull on the ship during her fight - when she gets emotional with Talos about not knowing who she really is - but overall, Evans portrayal of Captain America is VERY UN-emotional. Very controlled. Very much the same as Brie. 

I've never connected with the charcater other than as a flat, non-emotional soldier type of character. I appreciated him for that. Brie's charcter isn't that far removed from who HE is. A soldier. Constantly told she can't be what she wants to be. Gains power. Becomes a Captain. I bonded with that story. You didn't. Not sure why, but I found her to be convincing and enjoyable. Something with comic book fans I guess. 

For me coming across as flat and coming across as controlled are not the same.  Captian America is controlled Captian Marvel is flat.  Just my opinion. 

 

Steve also has a very different arc in the beginning.  He is a weak, in fact very weak character and is desperately longing to be strong.  He is an introverted and weak willed. Getting the serum is the first strong thing he ever does.  This is very clearly and emotionally shown.  When he finally gets to be a soldier he is now playing the role to a degree of what that weakling thinks a strong soldier should act like.

 

Carol on the other hand is always shown as strong and resilient in the flashbacks. She does not have power but is never shown as weak in willpower. She has always been strong, now she has powers in addition. She does not earn he powers and reinvent herself like Steve, she just takes the next step.

Edited March 18, 2019 by drotto

[theCapraAegagrus]

We get it. You'll make excuses for McGuffin female leads.

Her character arc is still non-existent. Training as an Air Force pilot and as a Kree combatant does not give you understanding of "cosmic" power instantaneously.

The fact that you have to make up excuses for her shows how poorly thought-out her character was. It's the same as Rian Johnson having to explain TLJ. If you have to explain a movie - and use outside source to do so - then it wasn't a good movie (and bad story/writing).

[Bosco685]

17 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

It gave ME enough. An Air Force pilot, she absorbed cosmic power from an Infinity Stone and then was trained for 6 years by the Kree.

I'm not the one that has issues with her origins and training impact. But I can see how this leaves people feeling no connection just yet.

17 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Batman clearly has PTSD.

It is sad that many still do not acknowledge this. After all those years of fighting and loss, any real human would be an emotional wreck. Yet someone like Bruce Wayne struggles on with all that baggage.

17 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

It doesn't have to be. It can just be actor vs actor.

Good. Because that's what it should be, in case anything I noted left you wondering if that was my concern. It isn't about prim-and-proper womanhood. 

17 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Sure, you can find instances where he shows some emotion - I can show instances where Brie does as well - when she shouts back at the Sjrull on the ship during her fight - when she gets emotional with Talos about not knowing who she really is - but overall, Evans portrayal of Captain America is VERY UN-emotional. Very controlled. Very much the same as Brie.

Even the grenade scene portrays the courage and emotion of Steve Rogers. Unfortunately, I didn't get my 'grenade scene' from Captain Marvel, though I don't feel she was completely flat.

17 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I bonded with that story. You didn't. Not sure why, but I found her to be convincing and enjoyable. Something with comic book fans I guess. 

I've collected Captain America comic books going back to Avengers #4, Captain America #100 and even during the J. M. DeMatteis/Mike Zeck stories including the Deathlok appearances. Trust me when I share Captain America is high on my readership and collecting focus from the early days. Unfortunately with Captain Marvel, she has not always been handled so well. Including with Avengers #200, which I hated about her rape. A horrible story.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Bosco685

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, drotto said:

For me coming across as flat and coming across as controlled are not the same.  Captian America is controlled Captian Marvel is flat.  Just my opinion. 

 

Steve also has a very different arc in the beginning.  He is a weak, in fact very weak characters and is desperately longing to be strong.  He is an introverted weak willed character. Getting the serum is the first seeing thing he ever does.  This is very clearly and emotionally shown.  When he finally gets to be a soldier he is now playing the role to a degree of what that weakling thinks a strong soldier should act like.

 

Carol on the other hand is always shown as strong and resilient in the flashbacks. She does not have power but is never shown as weak in willpower. She has always been strong, now she has powers in addition. She does not earn he powers and reinvent herself like Steve, she just takes the next step.

You and I saw two different movies then. She's shown as constantly being told she can't... the guy yelling at her on the race track telling her as a little girl "You don't belong out here" and her falling from the rope and being told "You'll never be a pilot" and of course the smartazz in the bar telling her "You know why they call it a cockpit, don'tcha honey?"

 

[Gatsby77]

1 minute ago, drotto said:

Carol on the other hand is always shown as strong and resilient in the flashbacks. She does not have power but is never shown as weak in willpower. She has always been strong, now she has powers in addition. She does not earn he powers and reinvent herself like Steve, she just takes the next step.

Ditto with Wonder Woman - and well, Thor. 

Also, Carol does go through an emotional arc in the film,even if she didn't begin specifically as a weak pansy (a la Peter Parker, Steve Rogers). 

Separately, I wonder how much folks here would be complaining if this had been a Silver Surfer film rather than a Ms. Marvel one?

Specifically with regard to the "over-powered" or even "what are her powers?" complaints.

I've read maybe two dozen Silver Surfer comics and I'm still not exactly sure what the extent of his powers are.

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Ditto with Wonder Woman - and well, Thor. 

Are we watching the same movies?

Zeus's daughter. Only a god can kill a god. So the 'God-Killer' finally clarified as the big reveal of the story.

[drotto]

9 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

You and I saw two different movies then. She's shown as constantly being told she can't... the guy yelling at her on the race track telling her as a little girl "You don't belong out here" and her falling from the rope and being told "You'll never be a pilot" and of course the smartazz in the bar telling her "You know why they call it a cockpit, don'tcha honey?"

 

Being told you can't but yet standing strong is the definition of a strong person. Plus she always ends up succeeding in the end. She is determined and strong willed and ignores those people from day one.  People putting her down is not a commentary on her, but a commentary on the people putting her down. She was average physically and strong in personality from the start.

 

Steve has been beat down to the point of submission for years, and finally has a moment a strength to stand up for himself, and takes the serum.  That is very different. Before he took the serum he was never shown as having any strength either physical or in personality. He was in fact abnormally weak in both.

 

I see a big difference in the characters. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by drotto

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Gatsby77 said:

Ditto with Wonder Woman - and well, Thor. 

 

Yep. Both kicked butt from day one with no weakness. Hulk too. 

1 minute ago, Gatsby77 said:

Also, Carol does go through an emotional arc in the film,even if she didn't begin specifically as a weak pansy (a la Peter Parker, Steve Rogers). 

1

Yep.

1 minute ago, Gatsby77 said:

Separately, I wonder how much folks here would be complaining if this had been a Silver Surfer film rather than a Ms. Marvel one?

 

They wouldn't.

1 minute ago, Gatsby77 said:

Specifically with regard to the "over-powered" or even "what are her powers?" complaints.

I've read maybe two dozen Silver Surfer comics and I'm still not exactly sure what the extent of his powers are.

For SOME, it's still a matter of it being a female in a lead role. 

[Prince Namor]

2 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Are we watching the same movies?

Zeus's daughter. Only a god can kill a god. So the 'God-Killer' finally clarified as the big reveal of the story.

He's talking about her being strong and resilient through the whole movie. No weakness. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

9 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Ditto with Wonder Woman - and well, Thor. 

Also, Carol does go through an emotional arc in the film,even if she didn't begin specifically as a weak pansy (a la Peter Parker, Steve Rogers). 

Separately, I wonder how much folks here would be complaining if this had been a Silver Surfer film rather than a Ms. Marvel one?

Specifically with regard to the "over-powered" or even "what are her powers?" complaints.

I've read maybe two dozen Silver Surfer comics and I'm still not exactly sure what the extent of his powers are.

The Power Cosmic is pretty much, "whatever you wanna do - you can do". It would still need explanation for those who don't know what the Power Cosmic is, but overall, it's pretty straightforward.

The genesis of Carol's powers are completely unexplained. How she can do what she do is unexplained. We got that she can perform a "photon blast". What else, why, and how? It's a red flag for me, and just leaves the door open that future characters' limits won't be explained. That's a hole that I really don't want to see the MCU go down. It sacrifices storytelling and the ability to suspend disbelief.

[Gatsby77]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Are we watching the same movies?

Zeus's daughter. Only a god can kill a god. So the 'God-Killer' finally clarified as the big reveal of the story.

Exactly.

But, like Carol, Diana was *always* a strong warrior - from the time she was a teen through the final scenes - when she realizes she's a god.

Similarly, Carol was *always* strong and resilient, from the time she was a little girl to being a female AF test pilot in among a world of mostly male ones -- through to the accident, which gives her the powers of a god.

Similar arcs.

And from what I recall from Green Lantern: Emerald Dawn, like Carol, Hal Jordan was an arrogant even before being given the ring.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Will it be explained in Endgame? Maybe. It should've been done in her solo movie, though, and not waste any time in a 3-hour team-up sequel.

Compelling characters have limits, an arc, and are relate-able. Right now, Carol is none of those things.

Superman isn't supposed to be any of those things. He's an "idea". Carol was once (is) a human, so you can't use the same relativity.

Edited March 18, 2019 by TwoPiece

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

He's talking about her being strong and resilient through the whole movie. No weakness. 

One key weakness was how the Amazon's shielded Diana from understanding the larger world. Her scene on the beach she starts to have a meltdown as she sees her sisters dying around her.

Her ignorance of the outer-world dangers is a huge weakness which could be used against her. Diana had no idea how to counter this German attack on her people.

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

One key weakness was how the Amazon's shielded Diana from understanding the larger world. Her scene on the beach she starts to have a meltdown as she sees her sisters dying around her.

Her ignorance of the outer-world dangers is a huge weakness which could be used against her. Diana had no idea how to counter this German attack on her people.

1

And Carol's weakness is her being told she's a female in a man's world constantly being told she CAN'T. And then losing her memory and being CONTROLLED by the Kree. She has plenty of weakness'. And she overcomes them. This keeps her powers in check throughout the movie.

Wonder Woman? Her powers are strong from day one. Yet... no criticism.

[Bosco685]

Or did I miss the part where Diana powered-up, took out all the Germans, and then standing above them all announced, "I am your savior" for all to worship?

[drotto]

Just now, Bosco685 said:

One key weakness was how the Amazon's shielded Diana from understanding the larger world. Her scene on the beach she starts to have a meltdown as she sees her sisters dying around her.

Her ignorance of the outer-world dangers is a huge weakness which could be used against her. Diana had no idea how to counter this German attack on her people.

WW played up the fish out of water portion very well, and it added a lot to the character.  She also had her lack of worldliness and really knowledge in general as a large weakness. But ultimately her humanity, despite her powers, is what made her shine and relatable. I felt the movie did a great job showing us how much she cared about her new friends and the larger world, despite her closed upbringing.  WW was sheltered to her detriment. 

 

Carol, despite saving the Earth, acts in a self serving manor. She is mad at the Kree for how she precieves they stole 6 years of her life, and how they lied to her. At no point did they make her express she cared about Earth and mankind in general beyond her friends in the movie.  You can say it was implied, but it needed to be said.

[drotto]

Just now, Bosco685 said:

One key weakness was how the Amazon's shielded Diana from understanding the larger world. Her scene on the beach she starts to have a meltdown as she sees her sisters dying around her.

Her ignorance of the outer-world dangers is a huge weakness which could be used against her. Diana had no idea how to counter this German attack on her people.

WW played up the fish out of water portion very well, and it added a lot to the character.  She also had her lack of worldliness and really knowledge in general as a large weakness. But ultimately her humanity, despite her powers, is what made her shine and relatable. I felt the movie did a great job showing us how much she cared about her new friends and the larger world, despite her closed upbringing.  WW was sheltered to her detriment. 

 

Carol, despite saving the Earth, acts in a self serving manor. She is mad at the Kree for how she precieves they stole 6 years of her life, and how they lied to her. At no point did they make her express she cared about Earth and mankind in general beyond her friends in the movie.  You can say it was implied, but it needed to be said.

[Bosco685]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

And Carol's weakness is her being told she's a female in a man's world constantly being told she CAN'T. And then losing her memory and being CONTROLLED by the Kree. She has plenty of weakness'. And she overcomes them. This keeps her powers in check throughout the movie.

Wonder Woman? Her powers are strong from day one. Yet... no criticism.

You and Gatsby implied Diana had her powers from Day 1. In the film (or reality), she had no idea of her powers until much later in the film. Even her training was all hand-to-hand combat and not force-multiplier weapons like Carol Danvers demonstrated even with her Yon-Rogg practice fights. We agree to disagree, as there is a difference. Just with Carol her powers were much more massive than the Kree allowed her to realize. 

[drotto]

8 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

And Carol's weakness is her being told she's a female in a man's world constantly being told she CAN'T. And then losing her memory and being CONTROLLED by the Kree. She has plenty of weakness'. And she overcomes them. This keeps her powers in check throughout the movie.

Wonder Woman? Her powers are strong from day one. Yet... no criticism.

Weakness in society or at least those putting her down is weakness in them not Carol.  That is very different.

Edited March 18, 2019 by drotto

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

You and Gatsby implied Diana had her powers from Day 1.

 

She did.

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

In the film (or reality), she had no idea of her powers until much later in the film.

 

She still had them.

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Even her training was all hand-to-hand combat and not force-multiplier weapons like Carol Danvers demonstrated even with her Yon-Rogg practice fights. We agree to disagree, as there is a difference. Just with Carol her powers were much more massive than the Kree allowed her to realize. 

As Wonder Woman's were much more massive than the Amazon's had her believe - she was STILL a God - just didn't know it. Powered up from day one. Unbeatable from day one. Yet no complaints.