CAPTAIN MARVEL starring Brie Larson (3/8/19) 5 5

[drotto]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

She did.

She still had them.

As Wonder Woman's were much more massive than the Amazon's had her believe - she was STILL a God - just didn't know it. Powered up from day one. Unbeatable from day one. Yet no complaints.

It is a different universe.  DC has always been the movie universe with God powers.  The MCU has played the God powers down even with Thor and Hulk. For the MCU god level power is new and drastically changes the dynamic. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

It took about 50 posts until he admitted he was wrong about "her having the Power Cosmic".

With that in mind, continue as you choose...

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, drotto said:

It is a different universe.  DC has always been the movie universe with God powers.  The MCU has played the God powers down even with Thor and Hulk. For the MCU god level power is new and drastically changes the dynamic. 

Thor is a god. Super Powerful. At a certain point, they have to challenge that power to make a compelling story. No one questioned it in his first movie. 

Hulk is Super Powerful. Unbeatable. The madder Hulk gets the stronger he gets for reasons unexplained. At a certain point, they have to challenge that power to make a compelling story. No one questioned it in his first movie. 

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

She did.

Yes, with no knowledge of anything at the beginning. Nothing.

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

She still had them.

As Wonder Woman's were much more massive than the Amazon's had her believe - she was STILL a God - just didn't know it. Powered up from day one. Unbeatable from day one. Yet no complaints.

She did, with no knowledge of any of it. Nor how to use them.

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

As Wonder Woman's were much more massive than the Amazon's had her believe - she was STILL a God - just didn't know it. Powered up from day one. Unbeatable from day one. Yet no complaints.

Higher, further, faster, baby!  She demonstrates cosmic powers out-of-the-gate which immediately conveys to the audience Carol is more than just a warrior with well-trained soldier skills.

Diana, unfortunately, had nothing but hand-to-hand combat skills and watched her people die around her. Though she too had these hidden powers.

[Prince Namor]

10 minutes ago, drotto said:

Weakness in society or at least those putting her down is weakness in them not Carol.  That is very different.

Holy moley drotto, you just saved the world. All we have to do is tell kids that and no one will ever fail again!

[theCapraAegagrus]

Neither of them got their powers in unexplained manners.

McGuffin-relative explosion = ?????

Thor is born a God. Bred to be a King of Gods.

Hulk's power stems from Gamma Radiation + Super Soldier Serum. They explain how he is so strong - his anger. His emotions. The angrier he is, as you even said, the stronger he gets. It's simply brute strength. He doesn't have "cosmic" power.

What drives Carol's power? No one freaking knows. That's why this argument even exists. You can't even explain it! You just keeping bringing up other heroes like it isn't a problem. It's a problem.

[WoWitHurts]

48 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Exactly. This.

As I've noted before, Captain Marvel is very much like the first Captain America film -- from plot to timeline to the main character's basically flat demeanor.

But no one leveled the same criticisms at that movie -- I think it's less about Captain Marvel's being a female and more that the character's not as well known to comic fans as Captain America, and folks resent her being such a late addition (whereas if she'd been introduced even back in 2016 - a la Doctor Strange) it'd be less of an issue.

And in case no one's mentioned it lately, the Tesseract is the Space Stone.

Personally I understand Capt. America's reserved nature more as having both my grandfathers in WWII. They were both reserved individuals and I think having seen so much carnage at a young age impacted their personalities. My grandfather who was in the Pacific theater told me once of an island he was on that he couldn't take a step anywhere on the island without stepping on a dead person. Capt. Marvel may have had a similar experiences to Capt. America but as an audience member it is easier for me to wrap my mind around Steve Rogers. 

[Prince Namor]

Just now, Bosco685 said:

Yes, with no knowledge of anything at the beginning. Nothing.

She did, with no knowledge of any of it. Nor how to use them.

 

If you're trying to make a case for Wonder Woman as a movie that she had some emotional or physical barrier to overcome to be the hero she becomes... that's just silly. How you can someohow see THAT in the movie vs Captain Marvel...

Just now, Bosco685 said:

Higher, further, faster, baby!  

 

I don't remember her displaying cosmic power as a human pilot. Did you read something into it that wasn't there?

Just now, Bosco685 said:

She demonstrates cosmic powers out-of-the-gate which immediately conveys to the audience Carol is more than just a warrior with well-trained soldier skills.

 

Because her story begins at a different point. As a full lifetime, she is NOT. She wasn't BORn with cosmic power. She wasn't born a GOD like Wonder Woman. 

Just now, Bosco685 said:

Diana, unfortunately, had nothing but hand-to-hand combat skills and watched her people die around her. Though she too had these hidden powers.

Which is a flaw in the story - if she's a God...

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, WoWitHurts said:

Personally I understand Capt. America's reserved nature more as having both my grandfathers in WWII. They were both reserved individuals and I think having seen so much carnage at a young age impacted their personalities. My grandfather who was in the Pacific theater told me once of an island he was on that he couldn't take a step anywhere on the island without stepping on a dead person. Capt. Marvel may have had a similar experiences to Capt. America but as an audience member it is easier for me to wrap my mind around Steve Rogers. 

Capt America's experiences are also human. He's relate-able, even as a human in peak physical condition.

Carol is more than a human. A human-Kree-McGuffin. Nobody can relate to that. You usually need a good arc, and good storytelling, to combat that. Captain Marvel didn't provide good enough writing to make her character compelling.

Saying, "exactly, I'm human", doesn't make her interesting .

[Prince Namor]

Spider-man: Bit by a radioactive spider. Somehow we're convinced this gives us the power of a spider?

Hulk: Gamma radiation makes you super strong? Somehow we're convinced by this?

Captain America: He took a Super Serum! Why doesn't everyone take it? Shut up!

Iron Man: The armour protects him when he crashes from 20,000 feet in the air. Woookay...

Peter Quill: Can hold an Infinity Stone in his hand, because... well he's half alien! Ok...

Black Panther: What are HIS powers? ANOTHER super serum type drink. Zzzzz...

Captain Marvel: Absorbed the power of an Infinity Stone and it gave her Cosmic Power. NO WAY!!!

 

 

 

[Sweet Lou 14]

54 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Ditto with Wonder Woman - and well, Thor. 

I feel like you're forgetting the entire point of the first Thor movie, where his powers are stripped and he needs to earn them back.  The character was humbled and underwent tremendous personal growth over the course of the movie.  Having been stripped of his "immortality," he sacrificed himself (in a somewhat overt Christlike move) and was essentially reborn, his powers restored by his father.  Odin's very presence creates a boundary / limit around Thor's power ... he isn't just an unstoppable -kicker.

It is exactly this sort of hero journey that is absent from Captain Marvel -- whatever part of her story is told through rapid-fire flashbacks isn't enough to create that strong bond with the audience.  It simply doesn't work nearly as well as it might have with a different -script (and I would argue a better director).

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

If you're trying to make a case for Wonder Woman as a movie that she had some emotional or physical barrier to overcome to be the hero she becomes... that's just silly. How you can someohow see THAT in the movie vs Captain Marvel...

Silly? Not really. But it's your opinion.

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I don't remember her displaying cosmic power as a human pilot. Did you read something into it that wasn't there?

 

You may have missed the glowing fist during the fight. The flashbacks to being a pilot exposed more of the character's hidden origins. It is the Kree scenes that conveyed the larger powers.

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Because her story begins at a different point. As a full lifetime, she is NOT. She wasn't BORn with cosmic power. She wasn't born a GOD like Wonder Woman. 

Correct, Diana is born a god. But is so distanced from her origins, nothing is even exposed to her about these powers until her cuffs come together during a training event as a young woman. It worked in the movie

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Which is a flaw in the story - if she's a God...

Not really. As you notice it wasn't even an audience sticking point. But with Captain Marvel... It seems to come up with a portion of the audience. 

[drotto]

10 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Holy moley drotto, you just saved the world. All we have to do is tell kids that and no one will ever fail again!

But Carol never fails!! She overcame her dad and made something of herself. She became a pilot. She flew the most advanced plane ever.  She got superpowers. She fully accessed her powers. She exposes the evil Kree. She saves the innocent. She saves her friends. She saves the Earth.  All in this movie, yes she has to stand up to some mean people and bullies, but show me where she ever failed. That is why she is a flat character and the movie lacks tention. Captian Marvel always succeeds and overcomes. She is always strong and just gets stronger as the movie move on. She is never weak and never shows weakness. She is inherently strong person.

 

Overcoming is a great message, but overcoming means more when you actually fail once in awhile. When she does get temporarily knocked down she ( in movie time) becomes even stronger, succeeds, and moves on each time in under 5 minutes. That is not realistic or relateable.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Spider-Man: Despite not having an origin story in the MCU, we've seen him explore his powers (and how they work) across 5 previous movies.

Hulk: Super Serum + Gamma Radiation. They explain how his "power" works. Anger = steroids, basically. Easy to comprehend.

Cap: Super Solder Serum. Explained what it does (peak human physical condition). How is that misunderstood?

Iron Man: When did he fall 20,000 feet and hit something? Never. He's flown away in the Iron Man movies, and been caught (Hulk, etc) in other movies. This is just poor misdirection.

Quill: Held the Stone for a few seconds, would've died if not for all Guardians absorbing/spreading the damage. The movie itself was also good, and they do hint at Quill being something more than Human (half Celestial). Pretty obviously decent writing .

Black Panther: Given, however, it was a good movie with good storytelling. Kinda gets a pass for being a great movie.

Captain Marvel: How does he McGuffin-fueled power work? She has power from the Space Stone? How does that grant her "photon blasts"? How does she control power within seconds of being unleashed, despite never exploring power? What are the limits? All of the previously-named heroes have defined limits? Why does anyone want an MCU "Superman"..?

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

I feel like you're forgetting the entire point of the first Thor movie, where his powers are stripped and he needs to earn them back.  The character was humbled and underwent tremendous personal growth over the course of the movie.  Having been stripped of his "immortality," he sacrificed himself (in a somewhat overt Christlike move) and was essentially reborn, his powers restored by his father.  Odin's very presence creates a boundary / limit around Thor's power ... he isn't just an unstoppable -kicker.

It is exactly this sort of hero journey that is absent from Captain Marvel -- whatever part of her story is told through rapid-fire flashbacks isn't enough to create that strong bond with the audience.  It simply doesn't work nearly as well as it might have with a different --script (and I would argue a better director).

It didn't work for YOU. It worked for me.

Some people liked it, some didn't. Some got it, some didn't.

It's going to make a BILLION DOLLARS worldwide at the box office - Captain Marvel is here to stay. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

There are defined powers and limits to almost every hero in the MCU. Even though Scarlet Witch's aren't transparent, they tell the audience what she can do.

What can Carol do, and why? What can't she do? She's just as boring as the McGuffins if she has no arc and no adversity. They need to rid the MCU of the McGuffins after Endgame - not turn them into characters.

You can't even tell us. You just keep saying, "she's cosmically powered". Yeah, so are the Infinity Stones. Tell me 1 person who find the Infinity Stones to be compelling storytelling artifacts. Aside from the fact that they heralded the Thanos story, nobody could care less.

[Prince Namor]

8 minutes ago, drotto said:

But Carol never fails!! She overcame her dad and made something of herself. She became a pilot. She flew the most advanced plane ever.  She got superpowers. She fully accessed her powers. She exposes the evil Kree. She saves the innocent. She saves her friends. She saves the Earth.

 

But Captain America keeps getting up! He keeps winning! He keeps getting better! 

8 minutes ago, drotto said:

  All in this movie, yes she has to stand up to some mean people and bullies, but show me where she ever failed. That is why she is a flat character and the movie lacks tention. Captian Marvel always succeeds and overcomes. She is always strong and just gets stronger as the movie move on.

3

This is Captain America's story as well.

8 minutes ago, drotto said:

She is never weak and never shows weakness. She is inherently strong person.

1

You saw a different movie than me. 

8 minutes ago, drotto said:

Overcoming is a great message, but overcoming means more when you actually fail once in awhile. When she does get temporarily knocked down she ( in movie time) becomes even stronger, succeeds, and moves on each time in under 5 minutes. That is not realistic or relateable.

2

Steve Rogers gets beat up by a bully - ends up being Captain America. Same thing.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Lmfao. Captain America overcomes the adversity of being "unfit for battle" by being persistent and courageous. This is noticed by the scientist. He was willing to sacrifice his life to the grenade at camp. He overcomes the adversity of his superiors telling him to put on shows - they need the money - and he doesn't need to put his life on the line. He does it anyways. He overcomes. All Carol does is zap a stupid storytelling plot device, that shouldn't even exist - so that way she can actually explore what powers she does have, and she's this boring God-like being.

Steve sacrifices and loses, his best friend and Peggy, and then puts himself into a frozen coma. They are completely different characters and movies. 1, while boring at times, is building a mostly-lifelike character that you can empathize with and root for. The other has no arc, is held back by nothing but plot-device shenanigans, and overcomes nothing.

[Bosco685]

8 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

It didn't work for YOU. It worked for me.

Some people liked it, some didn't. Some got it, some didn't.

It's going to make a BILLION DOLLARS worldwide at the box office - Captain Marvel is here to stay. 

It's great this worked for you so powerfully, Chuck. And it is going to make a massive amount of money. It just didn't connect with everyone. And that's okay.

[Bird]

My 15 year old daughter like CM more than WW, she didn't like all the skin WW shows and thought CM was a better movie. My 19 year old daughter didn't like the obvious political/refugee stuff and thought that it was too heavy handed, and she's an arts student! They both loved WW, as did wifey, and they all really enjoyed CM as well.

Spoiler

I see why they did what they did with the skrulls but I don't expecially care for it, I like my skrulls mean and nasty. And the Kree were especially evil by the end! (Well, the Supreme Intelligence always struck me as a bad guy through and through so I guess that fits.)