How I do know I am not being duped when contemplating a buy?

[Dablue]

Hi,

 

Can someone explain or point me in the right direction regarding this question..

 

What is a good price or a good marker value for a piece of orginal comic art. I realise you buy for yourself and you shouldnt buy pieces as an investment, but... Ive been a collector for a few years now and ive seen prices of pieces I was interested in, range from 200 bucks to 5000 bucks. Of course you have indicators like age, cultural significance, quality.. but that doesnt help me when I see a piece and I think wow.. but the price says.. whoa?

 

So what I am trying to ask is, how do I know I am not being duped when contemplating a buy?

 

EDIT: also a quick 2nd question. Does comic art keep its value? Since there is no real intrinsic value, one would say once the generation it appeals to is gone or out of the picture.. the price drops down to allmost 0?

[miraclemet]

EDIT: also a quick 2nd question. Does comic art keep its value? Since there is no real intrinsic value, one would say once the generation it appeals to is gone or out of the picture.. the price drops down to allmost 0?

 

this is a good question.. .

 

1) if we look at GA art how has it done in the market? My limited view is that only the keyest and best pieces have maintained value. But again, GA was more genre (western, war, sci-fi, horror) and less super heroes, which is what the current market values.

 

2) With the onslaught of super hero movies and comic books recognizing their IP value, will comic book art continue to enjoy value based on their relationship with the larger IP? Because of this, I think the price will never drop to zero unless the market loses interest with superheroes entirely and thus the super hero OA market is affected (which I dont think Marvel/DC/Disney would let happen).

[vodou]

Just found this site full of great articles.They're directed toward Fine Art but (imo) fully applicable to all art genres, including comic art.

 

Specific to your ask: How to Collect and Buy Art: The Basics

[Dablue]

Thank You vodou!. Seems like I have some light reading to do tonight =)

[AKA Rick]

Personally, the first question is "What is it worth to you, personally?" - - As many have said in the past, eluding to the potential fact that imagine the market crashed and there was zero value to the artwork much like there's zero value to the first iPod, PC, Cell Phone, Automobile, etc you buy as a consumable but get good use out of; or tickets to a sporting event or concert, for the memories.

 

So, as a baseline, know, for the most part (investment strategy aside), comic art is a luxury item, not a necessity, so beyond what it's worth to you... What can you also afford? Is it worth going into debt for with time payments, using a credit card, over-extending dipping into your savings, etc.?

 

After that, you then look at the piece and the price tag.

 

You evaluate your situation and do your own homework, research historical precedent of sales as well as similar material (typically indexed by the artist coupled by the characters/title and factoring in the rendering quality) that might be available in the marketplace. Keep in mind, the "asking / sales" price isn't always the market value, since it were such a great price, the piece would be sold and not available.

 

After all of that, then you look at the piece again and ask yourself, is this an upgrade to my collection or am I eventually looking to upgrade from this piece? If you see a piece for $300, but really want the other piece at $800, you might be better off passing on the $300 piece and saving for the $800. Or if this is your 12th piece by the same artist and title, and if you feel you're just hoarding for the sake of ownership. If you've not bought anything in a while and are bored, and buy due to the lack of other options, with that "money burning a hole in your pocket" mentality, many collectors fall victim to that rather than wait, save and buy a bigger piece or use that money for the other finer things in life.

 

As far as being duped, most of the duping is internal. We all do it to ourselves with our own emotions and impulses getting the better of us, where sometimes we have buyer's remorse and regret. That's why sometimes you have to take a step back and look at various aspects of the situation. At worst case, if you see the art online, just "right click" that image and save it.. and at least you can look at the artwork and admire it without owning it nor paying a price you may regret or can't afford.

 

Comic Art has generally retained it's value if not been a good if not great investment opportunity for many, but you need to then shift your mentality from "what I like" to "what I think most others like or will like" - - so, in the world of art for example, generally (not a rule), most collectors are male and clamor over renderings of cute sexy female characters, where a strong sturdy male character is less appealing. If you happen to like Luke Cage or The Atom, but see a piece featuring Mary Jane or Wonder Woman, but are thinking of it from a value standpoint, you will probably be more wise to get the ones with the ladies. But if you like what you like and want what you want and it deviates from the norm and mainstream, a lot of time that benefits you as a buyer with lower prices.

 

I always look at artwork purchases as that non-essential, so don't buy anything at any price I won't feel stupid for paying or owning at the wrong price or featuring characters I don't care about or an artist whose style I don't particularly like.

 

I don't think a market crash will ever occur with comic art in my or your lifetime, even if the medium of printed comic books diminishes and even if the current fad of super-heroes and comic book properties crossing over the the mainstream ends. Yes, I do believe "The Walking Dead" will eventually get cancelled or the creator calls it a day with a series finale, but don't think it will cause a mass exodus of the artwork down to $0. It's rarely a situation where something goes that far down, typically you gain or lose 20% as a fluctuation, and when things dip you can see losses greater than 50% even 80% (especially where you may have paid $5,000 for a modern pin-up piece by an up and coming artist who years later becomes less relevant and is now only commanding $1,000). But like the stock market, if you buy the "blue chips" by artist and character, so stick with Kirby, Ditko, Adams, Byrne, Campbell, Lee, Miller, Perez, etc. the names everyone knows and characters like Batman, X-Men, Avengers, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, and you're minimizing your risk of any huge drop or downside.

 

Unlike the stock market where you can click a button and sell at a current market price, with comics and comic art, you have to find your own buyer, and sometimes it's disheartening to find out what you once loved, not may others want, and if you have 10,000 pieces of art, generally to maximize your profit potential that's 10,000 individual transactions you need to manage (unless you take a layer off the profit potential jettisoning the pieces to a dealer for consignment or auction house - - which quite honestly is not a bad idea at all, it leaves the work to the experts and they often can get you more money than you could yourself, so more than cover their commission/fees at times).

[comix4fun]

 

So what I am trying to ask is, how do I know I am not being duped when contemplating a buy?

 

 

 

 

Here are some sure fire red flags to consider.

 

You may be getting "duped" if;

 

1) the seller has to "ask his brother" for a price.

 

2) the seller proclaims some medical ailment while in negotiations (a heart condition for example, or shingles maybe) in order to prevent lowering the price much or bartering with too much verve.

 

3) the price seems to be some multiplicative factor of its most recent sales price...someone perhaps offers you a piece you know just sold for $X and is asking 2 times $X, also know as a "doubler".

 

4) you've made the deal and the seller is giggling while counting your money.

 

 

[delekkerste]

Where does tripping a multiple 6-figure reserve a week before the live auction fit into the equation?

 

If at any point during your negotiations with a seller "getting the shingles" sounds like a preferable option to continuing to bang your head against the wall in frustration, I recommend pulling the ripcord and aborting immediately.

[vodou]

This guy is a rookie -no way his first or first ten deals should be with a Brother or any at a price where any of the other myriad questionable actors play sandbox. Keep it at a couple of hundred per piece (at least initially) and there's just not enough juice to bring out the hardened "dealers"

 

And when you want to add another zero...either already have a friend in that $andbox or make one (that isn't trying to $ell to you that is!) Nothing beats some experience in your corner, even if it's not your own.

[alxjhnsn]

Here's my standard advice on this issue:

 

 

You might want to explore the following resources:

• The OA auction archive at Heritage Auctions - This archive presents the results from all of their OA auctions.. Once you sign-up and get an id, you can search for pieces by your artist and see what they have sold for.
  
• The CAF Market Data - More auction results (more than 1,000,000) are available if you join the Comic Art Fans site, pay for Market Data access, and access eBay and other auction sites as well as Heritage.
  
• The Comic Art Database. It contains transaction records entered by the owners of Comic OA.
• Dealer sites. Dealers, generally, post their art with fixed prices though there are exceptions. There is a list of dealers on CGC OA board and the Dragonberry site has a list as well. The CAF site will search the inventories of several dealers for you.
  
• Blouin Art Info which tracks sales at major art auctions. It can turn up some Comic OA as well. Look for the “Art Prices” item on the top right of the screen
  
• Jerry Weist's Comic Art Price Guide - Heritage published a third edition of it. In my opinion, it's a good history book and might be useful for comparison work, but it was out of date a year before it was printed.
  
• A topic on these CGC OA boards, A-level panel page valuations by artist/run - thoughts/additions/changes?, holds a discussion that relates to your question. It provides some "generally agreed upon" ranges for popular runs by popular artists on popular characters.
• The Biggest OA Prices thread tracked some of the largest sales in the OA space. While that particular thread has stopped; it's probably worth reading for the discussions. Meanwhile , the information is still being updated - just with a different mechanism.
  • The price information moved to The OA Elite blog. Click on the categories on the top of the page to see the updated list.
  • The discussion moved to Biggest OA Prices: The Blog

New buyers and sellers often find that OA is too hard to price. I agree. However, I think that there is a valid reason. Each piece is unique. Uniqueness make art sales generally and OA specifically non-linear.

 

For example,

• Consecutive pages could and do sell for radically different amounts.
  
• Take page layout - In general, you might say:
  Covers > 1st Page Splash > Other Splash > 1/2 splash > panel pages
  However, that's not always true either. The right panel page can be much more compelling than a bland splash.
  
• Take pencillers- There are "A-list" artists, but not all of their books/characters have the same value. Kirby FF pages generally go for more than JIM/Thor pages which go for more than Cap pages (2nd run) which go for more than ...
  
• Take combinations of pencilers/inkers - Kirby/Sinnott FF pages rank above Kirby and anyone else on FF, but a Kirby/X FF page might be more or less than a Kirby/Stone Thor page. Hard to tell.

 

Finally, you should join the comic book OA community. The three main points of Internet contact are:

• Yahoo's comicart-l mailing list
  
• The Comic Art Fans website
  
• The CGC OA Board

 

The main points of physical contact are probably:

• San Diego Comic Con
  
• New York City Comic Con
  
• Comic Art Con
  
• Heroes Comic Con

 

One last comment, if you are looking to buy or sell, spend the time to learn the market. That might take 6 months, but it's worth the time.

 

 

[Kevin76]

Always trust your gut instinct. Always cover your behind.

[MediumLover]

Eat when you're hungry, and wear pants.

[Dablue]

hehe, thank you all for all the advice. Fortunately I dont have to eat my pants or share a bed with my inmaginairy 10 children. \

 

I bought 1, four figure page, but the rest are all 3 figures. But seeing how I am looking for a cover (and boy those are expensive) I really want to be prepared on what to pay and not be ripped off or regret the purchase later.

 

Also being from europe its usually a leap of faith.. Apart from all the good advice on these boards.. I personally find it hard to make contacts and find places with good art (apart from Romitaman and Anthony)

[eewwnuk]

if they insist on paypal as friends and family, run.

 

if you see the piece in someone else's caf gallery, run.

 

if its being offered at half the price of last sale or twice the price of last sale....run.

 

[tth2]

When dealing with dealers, just keep in mind one of the most accurate sayings ever:

 

"How can you tell if a dealer is lying? If his lips are moving."

[oldwhy]

if they insist on paypal as friends and family, run.

 

if you see the piece in someone else's caf gallery, run.

 

if its being offered at half the price of last sale or twice the price of last sale....run.

 

Probably a stupid question, but what is wrong with paypaling as friends and family? What is the risk?

[comix4fun]

if they insist on paypal as friends and family, run.

 

if you see the piece in someone else's caf gallery, run.

 

if its being offered at half the price of last sale or twice the price of last sale....run.

 

Probably a stupid question, but what is wrong with paypaling as friends and family? What is the risk?

 

 

 

You lose all buyer protection through paypal when you send it that way.

 

Friend and family is, by definition, not a transaction but a repayment of a debt, etc. It's not reliant on the party receiving the money to perform any action (such as shipping a piece of artwork) in order to complete the deal.

 

 

[aqualad34]

The best thing to do in that situation is just pay 3 percent more for goods and services if you have to pay by credit card and the seller doesn't want to eat the 3 percent paypal fee. If the seller doesn't go for that - I would pass.

[alxjhnsn]

+1

[oldwhy]

I had no idea. I've been using this option as a buyer as well as a seller for years and never experienced any issues.

 

I guess it helps that collectors in our area generally are a lot more trustworthy than in other fields. I also collect watches and not once in 10 years have I agreed to a deal that was not face to face.

 

Anyway, thanks a lot for pointing this out!

[AKA Rick]

The best thing to do in that situation is just pay 3 percent more for goods and services if you have to pay by credit card and the seller doesn't want to eat the 3 percent paypal fee. If the seller doesn't go for that - I would pass.

 

I'd say it goes both ways on the 2.9% processing fee. If you use a credit card and the seller doesn't want to incur the expenses, do you want to lose the deal over a mere 3% (much like asking a seller if they'd be willing to talk away from a deal over that same minimal amount). I can understand if a seller starts at one price, lowers it in the process of negotiations, then is thrown a curveball expecting cash and being offered a credit card, where they may balk.

 

The best way to approach the deal is being forthright up front in the terms and conditions addressing issues of shipping, insurance, packaging (some use shoddy materials, so for quality packaging you can expect to pay $10-15 or more due to shipping weight), even sales tax (many dealers actually run their businesses professionally and do have to pay sales tax), as well as the terms of the payment whether it's by Pay Pal, Check, Money Order or whatever methods.