Books you just cant find in the Wild 22 22

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

7 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Falling sell-through, however, is probably what convinced Marvel and DC to end their programs, not actual numbers.

Not necessarily. Just because it's profitable to print 1,000,000 copies and sell only 400,000 doesn't mean it's equally (or at all) profitable for 100,000/40,000 or 10,000/4,000.

Eh. Either way. Someone at Marvel decided it was no longer worth the effort, and a few years later, someone at DC decided the same thing. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 hours ago, Topnotchman said:

This example only identifies what is actually for sale on Ebay.   37 out of 119,319 is .00031 sample size.  If you were to have a sample size of .10  of the estimated print run which would be 11,319 comics and a ratio of direct sales to newsstand, that would hold more value with me. 

For decades Mile High chuck was buying dead back store stock of late bronze copper to modern age books.   After searching his back stock inventory he comes out with his conclusion of how rare and scarce Newsstand editions are compared to Direct editions.  His statement is flawed because his back stock inventory is a heavy on unsold stock which is almost exclusively direct editions.   His store inventory is not a clear representation of what was distributed at the time, its just whats available in his back issue inventory. 

And this is the result of his bad methodology:

http://milehighcomics.com/newsletter/031513.html

Virtually every paragraph in that article contains errors, but the most egregious of all is as topnotch here mentioned: he sees what he's got and comes to conclusions that are false, because he doesn't have any controls on his experiment. He only looks at what he has, not why he has it, and doesn't even consider why he has what he has (or he would have mentioned it somewhere.) 

Then, other, uneducated people, like a certain Benjamin Nobel of the "rare comics" blog, runs with those made up numbers...and he's hardly the only one...and you end up growing a cottage industry of marketing newsstands based on fake statistics. 

It's unfortunate, but that's what happens with a market composed of people who choose to be ignorant. The information's out there...but many people don't want to look. The CBCS forum, for example, is filled with such people, who aggressively resist any challenge to their conclusions, and fight with anyone who does.

 

 

[J.Biz]

On 11/24/2018 at 8:00 PM, Bird said:

well, each company was allowed to do a version so there is Batman Spawn War Devil and Spawn Batman. Different books and different creative teams. I don't know if you meant that or not.

I meant as far as direct, newsstand and this third version with logos on the rear of Spawn Batman War Devil. Anyone know the story behind the logo bar version?

[fastballspecial]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:43 PM, Topnotchman said:

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:34 PM, mr_highgrade said:

I just went  on ebay and searched out 2 comics from 2000. Uncanny X-men #381 with a print run of 119,319 and Wonder Woman #157 with a print run of 22,637.

There are 37 Uncanny X-men #381 Direct Editions  and just 1 Newsstand Edition.

There are 17 Wonder Woman #157 Direct Editions and 0 Newsstand Editions. 

Numbers don't lie. I could do this all day. 

This example only identifies what is actually for sale on Ebay.   37 out of 119,319 is .00031 sample size.  If you were to have a sample size of .10  of the estimated print run which would be 11,319 comics and a ratio of direct sales to newsstand, that would hold more value with me. 

For decades Mile High chuck was buying dead back store stock of late bronze copper to modern age books.   After searching his back stock inventory he comes out with his conclusion of how rare and scarce Newsstand editions are compared to Direct editions.  His statement is flawed because his back stock inventory is a heavy on unsold stock which is almost exclusively direct editions.   His store inventory is not a clear representation of what was distributed at the time, its just whats available in his back issue inventory. 

Agreed his statement is just BS. He doesn't know how I don't think to give any data to support his opinion. 

2 concepts that stick out for me are this. The farther you go into the last 90s and early 2000s newsstands become pretty scarce.
Add to that the inability to find many in high grade you add another factor.

The market for these has been created by those two factors along with completionists. Is it a large market probably not, but enough
for me to sell dozens for Image newsstands and late Marvel and DC books from the 2000s in high grade without issue and with a slight
premium. Not a gouge your eyes out price, but a premium from a direct issue at the same time in same grade.

Its sorta like the concept we have as boardies here thinking we are a large more important part of the comic book market pie then what
we really are.

 

 

[ygogolak]

15 hours ago, J.Biz said:

I meant as far as direct, newsstand and this third version with logos on the rear of Spawn Batman War Devil. Anyone know the story behind the logo bar version?

Later printing?

http://www.spawnworld.com/books/crossovers/batman/batmandc_1print.htm

[the blob]

 

 

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:22 PM, mr_highgrade said:

According to Comichron Spidey #600 sold 116,779 copies to comic shops. In 2013 Diamond had 2,638 accounts which were up 4% from the previous year. That's basically around an average of 45 to 50 copies per store or account. Give or take of course. As far as newsstands accross North America, in 2011 there were very few newsstands that sold comic books. I started buying newsies in 1978. As the years went on, especially after 2000, it was next to impossible to find any comics at your local newsstands.  I would usually find them in major transportation terminals in major cities.  

BTW, I checked ebay for Spidey #600, and there were 30 direct editions and just 1 newsstand. Go figure. 

B&N had 700whatever locations, in 2010 Borders had about 400 locations and carried comics, there are 250 BAM locations (do they get newsstand?), any other book chains I am forgetting? I agree though, newsstands barely exist outside of a few big cities, more likely you have Hudson news type places at airports or train stations. Unless something was specifically pushed at newsstand locations, it is hard to envision a situation since 2000 where the DE version didn't significantly outnumber, regardless of how many variables are in play. But I also don't fully accept that ratios on ebay necessarily reflect actual circulation ratios. Ebay is more prone to having dealer overstock listed, rather than someone's comics sitting in a box. If you look at some of the X-Men issues around 381, for example, you see a few more newsies than 37:1.

Edited November 28, 2018 by the blob

[valiantman]

Good discussion on newsstand vs direct editions, but getting back to the topic here "Books you just can't find in the wild" - we're not really ever going to know anything about books that are in existence if they don't make their way into the market.  While newsstands are almost certainly in higher existence than 37:1 ratios seen on sites like Ebay, they aren't available in higher ratios than 37:1... until they somehow make their way into the market.  As several have pointed out, there aren't many situations where a sudden supply of multiple copies of books is going to be a stack of newsstands because newsstands weren't generally purchased in stacks in the first place.  

 

I'm pretty sure all of these statements are true:

Statement 1) The back issue market shows far fewer newsstands (as a percentage) than what probably currently exist.

Statement 2) The back issue market shows exactly how many newsstands (as physical copies) are currently available.

Statement 3) Increased prices (especially higher than at any time in the past) for back issues tend to cause more copies to come into the back issue market.

 

What isn't clear is whether Statement 3 ultimately leads to a price drop (relative to current prices) due to increased supply, or whether Statement 3 ultimately leads to a price increase (relative to current prices) due to increased demand.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, valiantman said:

As several have pointed out, there aren't many situations where a sudden supply of multiple copies of books is going to be a stack of newsstands because newsstands weren't generally purchased in stacks in the first place.

I wonder if there are any warehoused groups of post-2000 Newsstands anywhere.

2 hours ago, valiantman said:

I'm pretty sure all of these statements are true:

Statement 1) The back issue market shows far fewer newsstands (as a percentage) than what probably currently exist.

Statement 2) The back issue market shows exactly how many newsstands (as physical copies) are currently available.

Statement 3) Increased prices (especially higher than at any time in the past) for back issues tend to cause more copies to come into the back issue market.

You forgot Statement 4) Nobody can see the entire market

Regarding #2: Although it seems like it should be true because the market is, by definition, all copies available for purchase, online sellers who don't separate different editions and use stock (or no) images make it untrue.

 

[mrwoogieman]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I wonder if there are any warehoused groups of post-2000 Newsstands anywhere.

You forgot Statement 4) Nobody can see the entire market

Regarding #2: Although it seems like it should be true because the market is, by definition, all copies available for purchase, online sellers who don't separate different editions and use stock (or no) images make it untrue.

 

Chuck already has the inside track on this - it's going to be called

Mile High III - Revenge of the Newsstands!

 

[the blob]

"I wonder if there are any warehoused groups of post-2000 Newsstands anywhere"

Where did the returns go? Were they pulped? (Of course, most of those returns were in pretty bad shape)  Funny thing, I was going to Borders 2008-2010 and looking at the comics because that's the first time I started hearing about the differentiations possibly being an issue and was thinking maybe buying some would be strategic if I could get them before they got trashed, but at the end of the day that would have been a $3+ risk per book and I really had no idea which ones had a better chance of popping. Not clear if I would have broke even. At the time I could do pretty well at $3 a book at shows buying stuff that had more clear upside (you still can, but it's harder). With that said, if you were a new issue buyer interested in more HTF versions of the books you were buying to read anyway and had access to a Borders or B&N, etc. at the time, why wouldn't you have been checking those books out every wed and buying your issues there? I guess you run the risk of missing out on issues if you don't have them pulled at your shop, but were these books getting raided every week, at least for the high grade copies still on the rack? (My guess is "not so much" because otherwise newsstand wouldn't have died!). I guess back then there were only a few hundred people really thinking of 2010 newsies as potentially extra collectable.

Edited November 29, 2018 by the blob

[Lazyboy]

17 hours ago, mrwoogieman said:

Chuck already has the inside track on this - it's going to be called

Mile High III - Revenge of the Newsstands!

 

And he'll offer them in a special deal, starting at "low, low prices" that are equal to the highest price from his old MHII ads!

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Lazyboy said:

And he'll offer them in a special deal, starting at "low, low prices" that are equal to the highest price from his old MHII ads!

Those are called "throwback prices"... it's already a thing. 

[divad]

On 11/29/2018 at 3:33 PM, valiantman said:

Those are called "throwback prices"... it's already a thing. 

Just about everything I buy on feebay is a "throwback" . . .

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 11/28/2018 at 6:39 PM, Lazyboy said:

On 11/28/2018 at 3:33 PM, valiantman said:

As several have pointed out, there aren't many situations where a sudden supply of multiple copies of books is going to be a stack of newsstands because newsstands weren't generally purchased in stacks in the first place.

I wonder if there are any warehoused groups of post-2000 Newsstands anywhere.

I suspect there are. And I further suspect that the "returns" process for newsstand comics in the 00s and 10s had something to do with actual returns of actual physical copies (rather than the historical affidavit/remainder procedure) that could then be shipped to other countries and placed on sale there.

Pure conjecture...but not out of the realm of possibility. I happened upon, in 2015 or so, a shortbox of 2007-2009 Marvel newsstands at a dealer in SoCal. I should have bought the entire box, but I didn't. But he had something I'd not seen before: multiples of fairly mid-gradeish copies of popular Marvels (DD, Wolverine) from those years.

And....as I noted elsewhere, the SOOs  from that period are wackily out of sync, and contradictory in places. How can an SOO for a title be printed in the the October issue, on sale in August, for that entire year...? And how do you go from 25,000 newsstand returns per issue in 2001, to a mere 3,000 in 2003 for Avengers? Also also...I suspect that, if you average out the totals reported by Diamond for North American sales, you'd end up with a HIGHER NUMBER (avg) than the total number of copies reported to have been printed (avg.)

Too many discrepancies....

By the way....around 2009, there was a dollar book store in Burbank, CA, that also got in comics. At one point, they got in several hundred books from 1983-1985....weird, random books, like Thing #4 and Thor #338. And....they were all in EXCELLENT shape. I do not know where they came from, but I spent probably 3 days, 4-5 hours each, pre-screening the hell out of those books and pulling out the dead 9.8 copies. Now...if I'd known about pressing like I do now, I just would have said "how much for all of them?" and taken them all, but I ended up with a long box of these mid 80s books...and here's the kicker: every single one of them was a newsstand copy.

So....where did they come from?

[lightninglad]

6 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I suspect there are. And I further suspect that the "returns" process for newsstand comics in the 00s and 10s had something to do with actual returns of actual physical copies (rather than the historical affidavit/remainder procedure) that could then be shipped to other countries and placed on sale there.

Pure conjecture...but not out of the realm of possibility. I happened upon, in 2015 or so, a shortbox of 2007-2009 Marvel newsstands at a dealer in SoCal. I should have bought the entire box, but I didn't. But he had something I'd not seen before: multiples of fairly mid-gradeish copies of popular Marvels (DD, Wolverine) from those years.

And....as I noted elsewhere, the SOOs  from that period are wackily out of sync, and contradictory in places. How can an SOO for a title be printed in the the October issue, on sale in August, for that entire year...? And how do you go from 25,000 newsstand returns per issue in 2001, to a mere 3,000 in 2003 for Avengers? Also also...I suspect that, if you average out the totals reported by Diamond for North American sales, you'd end up with a HIGHER NUMBER (avg) than the total number of copies reported to have been printed (avg.)

Too many discrepancies....

By the way....around 2009, there was a dollar book store in Burbank, CA, that also got in comics. At one point, they got in several hundred books from 1983-1985....weird, random books, like Thing #4 and Thor #338. And....they were all in EXCELLENT shape. I do not know where they came from, but I spent probably 3 days, 4-5 hours each, pre-screening the hell out of those books and pulling out the dead 9.8 copies. Now...if I'd known about pressing like I do now, I just would have said "how much for all of them?" and taken them all, but I ended up with a long box of these mid 80s books...and here's the kicker: every single one of them was a newsstand copy.

So....where did they come from?

Thank you for this anecdotal information.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, lightninglad said:

Thank you for this anecdotal information.

You're welcome! 

[Lazyboy]

13 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And....as I noted elsewhere, the SOOs  from that period are wackily out of sync, and contradictory in places. How can an SOO for a title be printed in the the October issue, on sale in August, for that entire year...?

SOOs don't cover calendar years. The most common (by far) Date of Filing is October 1. When they get published is another issue, and there is occasionally some questionable timing.

[mr_highgrade]

At the end of the day when it comes to newsies, they will always be ultra tough to find in high grade.  Especially after the 2000's. 

[fastballspecial]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:35 PM, manetteska said:

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:27 PM, fastballspecial said:

The only difference is a spider in the UPC.

 

Looks like MCS has two?

Terrribly undergraded as well. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And....as I noted elsewhere, the SOOs  from that period are wackily out of sync, and contradictory in places. How can an SOO for a title be printed in the the October issue, on sale in August, for that entire year...?

SOOs don't cover calendar years. The most common (by far) Date of Filing is October 1. When they get published is another issue, and there is occasionally some questionable timing.

That's not true. SOOs historically cover (or are supposed to cover) issues dated January to December. That's why they're filed on October 1: the last cover date (December) of a monthly periodical, for example, had just been published.

The thing about the SOOs is....they were self-reporting. Did the USPS ever audit the information provided...?

I'm guessing the answer is "no."