Books you just cant find in the Wild
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18 minutes ago, fastballspecial said:

Pretty tough find, but again
not worth much.

Not yet :wishluck:

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4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Maybe. Working with direct market initial order numbers, and trying to extrapolate from that, makes reliable estimating quite difficult. It's entirely possible that, given the number of "newsstand" outlets throughout North America (Barnes & Noble, etc) that the newsstand run was higher on some, or even many, issues during this time frame than their Direct counterparts. 

We just don't know. It's the great mystery of modern comic production.

Even still, the survival rate of this book can't be that high, as this just doesn't seem like something many people would be picking up from newsstands... but, of course, we just don't know. 

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4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Maybe. Working with direct market initial order numbers, and trying to extrapolate from that, makes reliable estimating quite difficult. It's entirely possible that, given the number of "newsstand" outlets throughout North America (Barnes & Noble, etc) that the newsstand run was higher on some, or even many, issues during this time frame than their Direct counterparts. 

We just don't know. It's the great mystery of modern comic production.

DE were always ordered more heavily than newsies. For example, for every 50 to 100 copies of Spidey #600 that a comic shop had, newsstands, Barnes & Noble, etc.,would only order 10 to 15 copies max. Also, the lesser selling titles would only have about 5 copies of any, if at all.

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30 minutes ago, BishopT said:

this just doesn't seem like something many people would be picking up from newsstands

Why not?

And if Marvel had thought that, they never would have made them. Then again, I'm not sure why they reprinted that book at all.

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2 minutes ago, mr_highgrade said:

DE were always ordered more heavily than newsies.

That is a false statement.

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13 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Why not?

And if Marvel had thought that, they never would have made them. Then again, I'm not sure why they reprinted that book at all.

I don't know, it just doesn't strike me as something people flocked to the newsstands to buy, and in turn leaving many to be returned by the store. Just conjecture, but you said it yourself, it's an odd book to reprint like this... even though I think it's cool, being a Wrightson. And I'm not expecting this to be a ohmygoditssorare book that someone will pay a premium for, it just seems like something that there aren't a whole lot of.

Again, just conjecture and speculation.

 

Anyway, more on to topic, I found this for a dollar today:

 

6C95B503-7F2E-4E1D-9758-323C4A5A8BBC.jpeg

F35EE3EF-BC8F-4556-902F-C6EB0E139A9F.jpeg

Edited by BishopT

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4 hours ago, mr_highgrade said:

DE were always ordered more heavily than newsies. For example, for every 50 to 100 copies of Spidey #600 that a comic shop had, newsstands, Barnes & Noble, etc.,would only order 10 to 15 copies max. Also, the lesser selling titles would only have about 5 copies of any, if at all.

There are far, far too many variables to consider for anyone to be able to come to any conclusion in this matter. For example...in 2011, Barnes & Noble operated 705 stores in the US. If every one of those received even just 5 copies, that's 3500 copies for just B&N. And B&N wasn't the only chain ordering newsstand copies in 2011. There were still actual newsstands across North America that sold comics. And how many comic shops were ordering 50 to 100 copies of ASM #600?

Nobody has any idea, except the publisher and the printer, and without ANY meaningful data, no claims can be made about anything, much less that DE were always ordered more heavily.

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4 hours ago, BishopT said:

I don't know, it just doesn't strike me as something people flocked to the newsstands to buy, and in turn leaving many to be returned by the store. Just conjecture, but you said it yourself, it's an odd book to reprint like this... even though I think it's cool, being a Wrightson. And I'm not expecting this to be a ohmygoditssorare book that someone will pay a premium for, it just seems like something that there aren't a whole lot of.

Again, just conjecture and speculation.

 

Anyway, more on to topic, I found this for a dollar today:

 

6C95B503-7F2E-4E1D-9758-323C4A5A8BBC.jpeg

F35EE3EF-BC8F-4556-902F-C6EB0E139A9F.jpeg

How many versions of the Spawn Batman are there? I feel like there are 3 or 4.

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18 minutes ago, J.Biz said:

How many versions of the Spawn Batman are there? I feel like there are 3 or 4.

well, each company was allowed to do a version so there is Batman Spawn War Devil and Spawn Batman. Different books and different creative teams. I don't know if you meant that or not.

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19 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There are far, far too many variables to consider for anyone to be able to come to any conclusion in this matter. For example...in 2011, Barnes & Noble operated 705 stores in the US. If every one of those received even just 5 copies, that's 3500 copies for just B&N. And B&N wasn't the only chain ordering newsstand copies in 2011. There were still actual newsstands across North America that sold comics. And how many comic shops were ordering 50 to 100 copies of ASM #600?

Nobody has any idea, except the publisher and the printer, and without ANY meaningful data, no claims can be made about anything, much less that DE were always ordered more heavily.

According to Comichron Spidey #600 sold 116,779 copies to comic shops. In 2013 Diamond had 2,638 accounts which were up 4% from the previous year. That's basically around an average of 45 to 50 copies per store or account. Give or take of course. As far as newsstands accross North America, in 2011 there were very few newsstands that sold comic books. I started buying newsies in 1978. As the years went on, especially after 2000, it was next to impossible to find any comics at your local newsstands.  I would usually find them in major transportation terminals in major cities. 

BTW, I checked ebay for Spidey #600, and there were 30 direct editions and just 1 newsstand. Go figure. 

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2 minutes ago, mr_highgrade said:

According to Comichron Spidey #600 sold 116,779 copies to comic shops. In 2013 Diamond had 2,638 accounts which were up 4% from the previous year. That's basically around an average of 45 to 50 copies per store or account. Give or take of course. As far as newsstands accross North America, in 2011 there were very few newsstands that sold comic books. I started buying newsies in 1978. As the years went on, especially after 2000, it was next to impossible to find any comics at your local newsstands.  I would usually find them in major transportation terminals in major cities. 

BTW, I checked ebay for Spidey #600, and there were 30 direct editions and just 1 newsstand. Go figure. 

This has been discussed at some length over the years on this board. The gist of it is that newsstand copies were bought by readers, not collectors, and those that survived are in the hands of those readers, and far less likely to be filtered back into the market...but it would be a mistake to assume that they don't exist, or that the number is anything even close to "30:1."

(I really need to update my newsstand experiment.)

An average of 45 to 50 copies per store means that there were plenty of stores who ordered 10-15 copies, as there were lots of stores...including online wholesalers, like DCBS and the like...who were ordering hundreds of copies, if not more.

Again...there are too many variables for anyone to make any claims, and the plural of anecdote is not evidence. You say there were "very few newsstands that sold comic books in 2011." Ok.

How many...?

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1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This has been discussed at some length over the years on this board. The gist of it is that newsstand copies were bought by readers, not collectors, and those that survived are in the hands of those readers, and far less likely to be filtered back into the market...but it would be a mistake to assume that they don't exist, or that the number is anything even close to "30:1."

(I really need to update my newsstand experiment.)

An average of 45 to 50 copies per store means that there were plenty of stores who ordered 10-15 copies, as there were lots of stores...including online wholesalers, like DCBS and the like...who were ordering hundreds of copies, if not more.

Again...there are too many variables for anyone to make any claims, and the plural of anecdote is not evidence. You say there were "very few newsstands that sold comic books in 2011." Ok.

How many...?

I've been on the road since 1989 because of my job. Although, I am basically in NY most of the times. Up to the mid 90's I was usually able to find comics in most newsstands in the 5 boroughs of NY. Soon after 2000, I could only find them in very few newsstands in Manhattan, but always at the Hudson Newsstands in Grand Central or Penn Station. Forget about the other boroughs. Mind you, they never carried all the titles. Usually just the major ones, like Spidey, X-men, Tec etc.

As far as how many? I have no idea. I just know from my own personal experience, that as the years went on it became very diffilcult.

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2 hours ago, mr_highgrade said:

I started buying newsies in 1978.

Every book I ever bought was a newsstand . . . :grin:

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14 hours ago, mr_highgrade said:
15 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This has been discussed at some length over the years on this board. The gist of it is that newsstand copies were bought by readers, not collectors, and those that survived are in the hands of those readers, and far less likely to be filtered back into the market...but it would be a mistake to assume that they don't exist, or that the number is anything even close to "30:1."

(I really need to update my newsstand experiment.)

An average of 45 to 50 copies per store means that there were plenty of stores who ordered 10-15 copies, as there were lots of stores...including online wholesalers, like DCBS and the like...who were ordering hundreds of copies, if not more.

Again...there are too many variables for anyone to make any claims, and the plural of anecdote is not evidence. You say there were "very few newsstands that sold comic books in 2011." Ok.

How many...?

I've been on the road since 1989 because of my job. Although, I am basically in NY most of the times. Up to the mid 90's I was usually able to find comics in most newsstands in the 5 boroughs of NY. Soon after 2000, I could only find them in very few newsstands in Manhattan, but always at the Hudson Newsstands in Grand Central or Penn Station. Forget about the other boroughs. Mind you, they never carried all the titles. Usually just the major ones, like Spidey, X-men, Tec etc.

As far as how many? I have no idea. I just know from my own personal experience, that as the years went on it became very diffilcult.

Of course. I don't think anyone disagrees that newsstand sales and distribution fell over the years. The core question, however, is "did it fall to the point that it was still selling fewer copies than the Direct market?" And the answer to that is a hearty "we have absolutely no way of knowing, in any way, because there are far too many unknown variables to even attempt an estimation." 

It is my contention, based on the very broad and sparse information we DO have, that newsstand sales in the 00s...the last full decade of it for Marvel and DC...may have represented MORE copies sold, and certainly more printed, than the Direct market, especially for books that had Direct sales (as reported by Diamond) in the 10k-20k or less range. The newsstand model was still in effect; publishers still printed 3-5x the amount of copies they thought would sell (unlike the Direct market, which was more or less print to order.) Retailers still participated in the newsstand return program. Falling sell-through, however, is probably what convinced Marvel and DC to end their programs, not actual numbers. 

It's simply more cost effective to run the Direct model for publishers than it is the newsstand model. So, to sell 6,000 copies Direct could have been (and is, for smaller publishers) cost effective, whereas selling 20,000-30,000 of the same book via newsstand distribution may not.

So, for folks to carry the (correct) assumptions of the late 80s and 90s....that is, Direct editions were made and sold in higher numbers than their newsstand counterparts (which is true)...into the 00s and 10s may not be an accurate picture of the situation on the ground.

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1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Of course. I don't think anyone disagrees that newsstand sales and distribution fell over the years. The core question, however, is "did it fall to the point that it was still selling fewer copies than the Direct market?" And the answer to that is a hearty "we have absolutely no way of knowing, in any way, because there are far too many unknown variables to even attempt an estimation." 

It is my contention, based on the very broad and sparse information we DO have, that newsstand sales in the 00s...the last full decade of it for Marvel and DC...may have represented MORE copies sold, and certainly more printed, than the Direct market, especially for books that had Direct sales (as reported by Diamond) in the 10k-20k or less range. The newsstand model was still in effect; publishers still printed 3-5x the amount of copies they thought would sell (unlike the Direct market, which was more or less print to order.) Retailers still participated in the newsstand return program. Falling sell-through, however, is probably what convinced Marvel and DC to end their programs, not actual numbers. 

It's simply more cost effective to run the Direct model for publishers than it is the newsstand model. So, to sell 6,000 copies Direct could have been (and is, for smaller publishers) cost effective, whereas selling 20,000-30,000 of the same book via newsstand distribution may not.

So, for folks to carry the (correct) assumptions of the late 80s and 90s....that is, Direct editions were made and sold in higher numbers than their newsstand counterparts (which is true)...into the 00s and 10s may not be an accurate picture of the situation on the ground.

I just went  on ebay and searched out 2 comics from 2000. Uncanny X-men #381 with a print run of 119,319 and Wonder Woman #157 with a print run of 22,637.

There are 37 Uncanny X-men #381 Direct Editions  and just 1 Newsstand Edition.

There are 17 Wonder Woman #157 Direct Editions and 0 Newsstand Editions. 

Numbers don't lie. I could do this all day. 

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14 minutes ago, mr_highgrade said:
1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Of course. I don't think anyone disagrees that newsstand sales and distribution fell over the years. The core question, however, is "did it fall to the point that it was still selling fewer copies than the Direct market?" And the answer to that is a hearty "we have absolutely no way of knowing, in any way, because there are far too many unknown variables to even attempt an estimation." 

It is my contention, based on the very broad and sparse information we DO have, that newsstand sales in the 00s...the last full decade of it for Marvel and DC...may have represented MORE copies sold, and certainly more printed, than the Direct market, especially for books that had Direct sales (as reported by Diamond) in the 10k-20k or less range. The newsstand model was still in effect; publishers still printed 3-5x the amount of copies they thought would sell (unlike the Direct market, which was more or less print to order.) Retailers still participated in the newsstand return program. Falling sell-through, however, is probably what convinced Marvel and DC to end their programs, not actual numbers. 

It's simply more cost effective to run the Direct model for publishers than it is the newsstand model. So, to sell 6,000 copies Direct could have been (and is, for smaller publishers) cost effective, whereas selling 20,000-30,000 of the same book via newsstand distribution may not.

So, for folks to carry the (correct) assumptions of the late 80s and 90s....that is, Direct editions were made and sold in higher numbers than their newsstand counterparts (which is true)...into the 00s and 10s may not be an accurate picture of the situation on the ground.

I just went  on ebay and searched out 2 comics from 2000. Uncanny X-men #381 with a print run of 119,319 and Wonder Woman #157 with a print run of 22,637.

There are 37 Uncanny X-men #381 Direct Editions  and just 1 Newsstand Edition.

There are 17 Wonder Woman #157 Direct Editions and 0 Newsstand Editions. 

Numbers don't lie. I could do this all day. 

No idea why you're fighting this, especially with bad/false information. You don't have any idea what the print run was for either of those comics, because that information is not published. The only people who know those numbers are the publisher and the printer. The numbers you are quoting represent SOLD copies, and only in North America, and only the initial distribution. 

As well....as I said above, it would be a mistake to assume anything based on copies available for sale on eBay. Newsstand copies tended to be sold to readers who, if they saved them, didn't buy them in multiples. They bought A copy to read, and perhaps keep. That means those copies were far more widely distributed than the 10-15-20-30-50 copies that stores ordered that then got put in back stock to sell at a later date. THAT means that those newsstand copies don't make their way to the market very often, and certainly not in the "clumps" you see with Direct editions.

You're trying to come to conclusions that no one but the publisher and/or printer can possibly come to. You do not have the information available to reach those conclusions. Your "numbers" don't represent what you'd like them to.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
I really, REALLY hate the edit function of this board.

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1 hour ago, mr_highgrade said:

I just went  on ebay and searched out 2 comics from 2000. Uncanny X-men #381 with a print run of 119,319 and Wonder Woman #157 with a print run of 22,637.

There are 37 Uncanny X-men #381 Direct Editions  and just 1 Newsstand Edition.

There are 17 Wonder Woman #157 Direct Editions and 0 Newsstand Editions. 

Numbers don't lie. I could do this all day. 

This example only identifies what is actually for sale on Ebay.   37 out of 119,319 is .00031 sample size.  If you were to have a sample size of .10  of the estimated print run which would be 11,319 comics and a ratio of direct sales to newsstand, that would hold more value with me. 

For decades Mile High chuck was buying dead back store stock of late bronze copper to modern age books.   After searching his back stock inventory he comes out with his conclusion of how rare and scarce Newsstand editions are compared to Direct editions.  His statement is flawed because his back stock inventory is a heavy on unsold stock which is almost exclusively direct editions.   His store inventory is not a clear representation of what was distributed at the time, its just whats available in his back issue inventory. 

Edited by Topnotchman
spelling

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1 hour ago, mr_highgrade said:

Numbers don't lie.

Numbers may not lie, but some people certainly misrepresent and abuse them in attempts to validate their beliefs.

Since some people seem to have trouble with simple concepts that are explained with just words, here's a picture:

TimeFlow.thumb.jpg.1e8de3318b2b4d5125fc5a3f0f262fea.jpg

This represents the location of copies of an average issue over time.

1 is at the point of initial distribution, 2 is months later, and 3 is years later.

It should nearly always be significantly more difficult to find Newsstand back issues available for purchase, especially the closer you are to the off-sale date.

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3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Falling sell-through, however, is probably what convinced Marvel and DC to end their programs, not actual numbers.

Not necessarily. Just because it's profitable to print 1,000,000 copies and sell only 400,000 doesn't mean it's equally (or at all) profitable for 100,000/40,000 or 10,000/4,000.

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