'PLANET COMICS' (is deserving of its own thread)
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9 hours ago, mwotka said:

Cross posting this here, I've already posted in the Restoration forum but wanted to get everyone here's take on this.  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/science-fiction/planet-comics-1-fiction-house-1940-cgc-fn-55-off-white-pages/a/121909-11945.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116

 

I watched this Planet Comics 1 in 5.5 sell yesterday for $6,600.  I apologize in advance if you won this auction and are psyched about the book, as I'm chasing one too and I'd be excited about it.  But it has clearly had color touch removed from the spine with an exacto knife or similar tool, and it appears there are even holes in the cover from this process.  Leaving aside whether the grade is correct, I am of the opinion that this book should NOT be receiving a blue label.  I don't believe CGC should set things up to incentivize cutting on classic books, and I'd bet the seller made a few grand off this "process".  I personally think the book looks hideous now.  These books have had a tough enough time lasting 80 years, why get a new generation cutting and modifying them to chase a buck?  When someone is removing color touch, and in the process removing original color from the cover, they are pretty much by definition restoring/changing/conserving (take your pick) the book.  I think these books should get at a minimum a Conserved label, and I think you could even argue this is a type of trimming.  I'd appreciate hearing what some of you think about this issue.

This also raises the secondary question of tracking provenance.  I think CGC should be trying to provide provenance/history of books that have been re-subbed after these types of operations (when possible)  This is no different than chain of title for a classic car or provenance for a piece of art, and would provide a buyer MORE info to tell them the history of the item and where it has been, which will help the market more fully understand one that is for sale.  I realize this may not be easy.  But with a Planet 1 with only 60 total graded books, it shouldn't be impossible to find out what this book was before, if it had been previously graded (obviously this would be far more difficult for a Hulk 181).  And it would both cut down on re-sub grade chasers and restorers who can hide what a book was.  Which also inflates the pool of information about what actually exists (and it wouldn't surprise me if they have an internal process for tracking some of these).  After all what good is a census if some percentage of the total has been counted multiple times?  But this is a different problem and somewhat distinct from the above.  

I agree.

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I need a planet 1....:sorry:

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4 minutes ago, SushiX said:

I need a planet 1....:sorry:

There is a very nice Billy Wright pedigree copy coming to auction soon on HA...

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Just now, Spyder! said:

There is a very nice Billy Wright pedigree copy coming to auction soon on HA...

lol! only if my bank account would allow! lol

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On 3/4/2019 at 12:53 PM, mwotka said:

Cross posting this here, I've already posted in the Restoration forum but wanted to get everyone here's take on this.  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/science-fiction/planet-comics-1-fiction-house-1940-cgc-fn-55-off-white-pages/a/121909-11945.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116

 

I watched this Planet Comics 1 in 5.5 sell yesterday for $6,600.  I apologize in advance if you won this auction and are psyched about the book, as I'm chasing one too and I'd be excited about it.  But it has clearly had color touch removed from the spine with an exacto knife or similar tool, and it appears there are even holes in the cover from this process.  Leaving aside whether the grade is correct, I am of the opinion that this book should NOT be receiving a blue label.  I don't believe CGC should set things up to incentivize cutting on classic books, and I'd bet the seller made a few grand off this "process".  I personally think the book looks hideous now.  These books have had a tough enough time lasting 80 years, why get a new generation cutting and modifying them to chase a buck?  When someone is removing color touch, and in the process removing original color from the cover, they are pretty much by definition restoring/changing/conserving (take your pick) the book.  I think these books should get at a minimum a Conserved label, and I think you could even argue this is a type of trimming.  I'd appreciate hearing what some of you think about this issue.

This also raises the secondary question of tracking provenance.  I think CGC should be trying to provide provenance/history of books that have been re-subbed after these types of operations (when possible)  This is no different than chain of title for a classic car or provenance for a piece of art, and would provide a buyer MORE info to tell them the history of the item and where it has been, which will help the market more fully understand one that is for sale.  I realize this may not be easy.  But with a Planet 1 with only 60 total graded books, it shouldn't be impossible to find out what this book was before, if it had been previously graded (obviously this would be far more difficult for a Hulk 181).  And it would both cut down on re-sub grade chasers and restorers who can hide what a book was.  Which also inflates the pool of information about what actually exists (and it wouldn't surprise me if they have an internal process for tracking some of these).  After all what good is a census if some percentage of the total has been counted multiple times?  But this is a different problem and somewhat distinct from the above.  

I completely agree too. That copy looks like a nose job gone horribly wrong. But as some comic strip character said long ago, "we have met the enemy and he is us".

 

 

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Posted (edited)

OK if you guys insist, and you do,I'm gonna throw my two pennies in FWIW.

This is a can of worms so I'm not gonna touch the bulk of these issues but I will say this. When someone goes to this much trouble to remove resto to allegedly get the book back to a pre restored state...then its just utter and complete bollocks.

I mean seriously...did the book ever look like this before the CT was applied? I seriously doubt it. Does anyone seriously think that book is aesthetically appealing?  Really?

I don't want to p**s on anyone's chips, so if you are the owner of that book, and you are happy with it, and you love it...then that is all that matters, and I'm genuinely happy for you.

Personally I wouldn't touch it with a very big stick.

Give me Spyder's Restored 6.0 any day of the week. Nothing wrong with a bit of resto. In many cases it's more honest than the 'bending over backwards-do anything' philosophy to get a Blue label. 2c 

Edited by G G
typo

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CGC has a real challenging job they've taken on.   By nature, as collectors, hobbyists, of what amounts to a combination of fine art, 1st print editions of what we consider masterpieces, we are meticulous, demanding, scrutinizing, passionate about what we collect.  They have to try to make everybody happy.  It's not easy.   With moderns, which I no longer collect at all, but the million dollar question is how do you separate a 9.9 from a 9.8.  I have had graders insist to me that they can tell the difference.  Bollocks.  I can guarantee you, if you broke out all of the 9.8 Hulk 181s (not a modern, but it's to the point) and the one 9.9 and had CGCs top 10 graders pick one to be the 9.9, they'd all choose a different book, at best 2 of the 10 would pick the one deemed a 9.9, the one that is probably worth $500k, as opposed to $35k.  There's no easy way around that problem though. 

This is a different issue though.  Though I don't see a reasonable way to expect CGC to try to track the history of book that they can't know, they also shouldn't be giving out a universal grade blue label on a book like the Planet 1 above.  I can imagine it being worth $6k or more to some, but I too would prefer Spydee's 6.0 restored.  It says what it is, and is in better shape.  It looks substantially better.  What's with whatever is going on up and down the spine on the 5.5?

Btw, though the book has issues, it's still awesome to whomever owns it.  I don't own one, and would love to.  But one thing it's not is unrestored.  That's like a woman reclaiming her virginity, come on man.

 

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4 minutes ago, eschnit said:

That's like a woman reclaiming her virginity,

I've met a few of them. I gave them a purple label. 

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I am really sorry if the winner was a boardie.  We all have different personal preferences and different budgets, so in all honesty, I'm not judging!  It's still a Planet 1 and worth owning.  This conversation is beyond this one book (for me anyway). 

One of the things I have always heard about the difference between restoration and recreation is that restoration is "reversible."  However, if this is what is meant by reversible, then we have changed the meaning of the word.  I do not believe the book looked anything like this prior to color touch.  Once again, it just makes me sad. I do believe pieces of the original book were removed in the process of removing color touch.  The book was published nearly 80 years ago, and 80 year old pieces were chipped off in the process of making it a blue label.  I'm sad for those 80 year old pieces now lost forever. 

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This is a very interesting and important conversation! I've been struggling with restoration removal for a 6.0 Restored copy of Planet #14.
NOTE: I own the 9.4 Church copy of this book, so I would only be "restoring" it for the resale value. That said, I would be really sad if it came back cut up and mutilated.

The notes state: Glue/adhesive (Non-archival material small amount) Spine C-1 (C=Poor quality of work and 1=Slight quantity).
HOWEVER, I've found threads here where a C-1 book had glue along the entire spine sealing a split. So who really knows what "slight" means. CGC notes should be much more thorough in my opinion.

Anyway, I've been struggling with sending this to CCS. Would love some feedback here with regards to people's experience with glue removal.

Planet_14_Restored.thumb.jpg.35e9d945446f25e2aaff9dcf99d2e784.jpg

 

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2 minutes ago, Markentoth said:

This is a very interesting and important conversation! I've been struggling with restoration removal for a 6.0 Restored copy of Planet #14.
NOTE: I own the 9.4 Church copy of this book, so I would only be "restoring" it for the resale value. That said, I would be really sad if it came back cut up and mutilated.

The notes state: Glue/adhesive (Non-archival material small amount) Spine C-1 (C=Poor quality of work and 1=Slight quantity).
HOWEVER, I've found threads here where a C-1 book had glue along the entire spine sealing a split. So who really knows what "slight" means. CGC notes should be much more thorough in my opinion.

Anyway, I've been struggling with sending this to CCS. Would love some feedback here with regards to people's experience with glue removal.

Planet_14_Restored.thumb.jpg.35e9d945446f25e2aaff9dcf99d2e784.jpg

 

Send it to Matt it really doesn't look like much glue was used from what i see. He can tell what he can do if anything to remove it but you have nice pq on that one.

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35 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

I think we've seen more and more of those kind of books since CGC purchased a company that could unrestore books. I don't remember seeing many before that and I often wonder if there were books submitted by other "unrestorers" that looked like that and would get the same grade.

It's just going beyond what the hobby should be promoting for a fake number. 

I'll keep mine  as is but if I know if I ever lose my mind and sell it, chances are it will be in a blue label eventually.

.

1937872247_planet1.thumb.jpg.d7fa53ab4ef09245d344e9a3e0875ad2.jpg

 

Firstly Sharon, don't sell it.

Its only slight amatuer resto...thats all part of the story & the love.

Its old old label.

It's beautiful.

It's HG.

I wouldn't mess with it.

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Posted (edited)

@Markentoth Wow! We got Sean to post outside of the selling forum! 

OK, it's possible I'm a bit biased when it comes to Planet 14, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.  I think your restored 6.0 is glorious as is.  As I've already stated, I think there is a place for restoration removal.  If it doesn't destroy original pieces of the book and make it look incredibly ugly, then I'm not against it.  Adding a blue label copy of #14 to the census doesn't happen every day.  I'd be happy to see this one in a nice presenting blue label slab.  I doubt your copy would end up looking like the current book in question.

@comicjack ,honest question, who is Matt?  

Edited by Spyder!

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Just now, Spyder! said:

I think your restored 6.0 is glorious as is

Ditto

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2 minutes ago, Spyder! said:

honest question, who is Matt?  

 

willienelson-review-620x400.jpg

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10 minutes ago, G G said:

Firstly Sharon, don't sell it.

Its only slight amatuer resto...thats all part of the story & the love.

Its old old label.

It's beautiful.

It's HG.

I wouldn't mess with it.

I have no intention of selling it or unrestoring it;) 

@Markentoth

I'd leave your Planet as is. I think the market for restored books is getting better, especially for scarce beautiful books like the one you have.

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7 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

I have no intention of selling it or unrestoring it;) 

@Markentoth

I'd leave your Planet as is. I think the market for restored books is getting better, especially for scarce beautiful books like the one you have.

I would agree with that. The restored book value has definitely picked up in the last couple of years.

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7 hours ago, Spyder! said:

@Markentoth Wow! We got Sean to post outside of the selling forum! 

OK, it's possible I'm a bit biased when it comes to Planet 14, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.  I think your restored 6.0 is glorious as is.  As I've already stated, I think there is a place for restoration removal.  If it doesn't destroy original pieces of the book and make it look incredibly ugly, then I'm not against it.  Adding a blue label copy of #14 to the census doesn't happen every day.  I'd be happy to see this one in a nice presenting blue label slab.  I doubt your copy would end up looking like the current book in question.

@comicjack ,honest question, who is Matt?  

Matt Nelson president of CSS

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