900K reserve not met on Frazetta painting.

[thecopperagekids]

Even so $750K is a long way from $1M for most folks.

 

"Most folks" is not the classification that people who have the cash to pay 500K or 750K, for a piece of OA, fall into.

 

I'd have to think if someone has 750K to spend on a single piece of OA, and the piece in question is desirable enough, they will probably not have an issue with putting down another 250K.

 

 

[buyatari]

Yeah what Chris was saying boils down to 'they are trying to get you emotionally invested in it'. Lure you in to maybe meeting a reserve you wouldn't otherwise have done. Best IMO to just ignore or not bid until the end when there's no emotions. Luckily very few pieces on HA have a reserve anyways.

 

 

I think they prefer flat out auctions with no reserve because of all the varying perceptions involved...and that it guarantees a sale and commission. No one involved wants to waste their time dancing around a piece without a sale at the end.

 

 

Worse than the risk of emotionally investment only to be given a teaser if the reserve isn't reasonable is the trust factor. If I can't see it from day one then I don't trust that the reserve hasn't been tweaked after bidding starts.

 

 

Well, all the auctions do say "Reserves. if any, will post on "X" date". I tend to not take anything seriously until after that date. Reserves still put a damper on my enthusiasm, but I've been active in these types of auctions since 1992, so there isn't much in the way of getting me emotionally invested that anyone could do at this point to me.

 

Heritage, or any auction house, has no reason to allow an unreasonable reserve to be set, much less to alter it to be even higher in the middle of bidding. The auction house only reaps the benefits of their efforts with pieces selling.

 

How about the reverse. Can one initially tell Heritage that the reserve is 1Mil and after bidding starts drop it to 900k?

 

They might agree to that. Bidders won't see the 1Mil and that allows the seller to adjust it after the fact.

[cstojano]

Yeah what Chris was saying boils down to 'they are trying to get you emotionally invested in it'. Lure you in to maybe meeting a reserve you wouldn't otherwise have done. Best IMO to just ignore or not bid until the end when there's no emotions. Luckily very few pieces on HA have a reserve anyways.

 

 

I think they prefer flat out auctions with no reserve because of all the varying perceptions involved...and that it guarantees a sale and commission. No one involved wants to waste their time dancing around a piece without a sale at the end.

 

 

Worse than the risk of emotionally investment only to be given a teaser if the reserve isn't reasonable is the trust factor. If I can't see it from day one then I don't trust that the reserve hasn't been tweaked after bidding starts.

 

 

Well, all the auctions do say "Reserves. if any, will post on "X" date". I tend to not take anything seriously until after that date. Reserves still put a damper on my enthusiasm, but I've been active in these types of auctions since 1992, so there isn't much in the way of getting me emotionally invested that anyone could do at this point to me.

 

Heritage, or any auction house, has no reason to allow an unreasonable reserve to be set, much less to alter it to be even higher in the middle of bidding. The auction house only reaps the benefits of their efforts with pieces selling.

 

How about the reverse. Can one initially tell Heritage that the reserve is 1Mil and after bidding starts drop it to 900k?

 

They might agree to that. Bidders won't see the 1Mil and that allows the seller to adjust it after the fact.

 

Seems like this was done with both high profile Frazetta pieces at PIH where corrigenda reduced the estimates and I assume the opening bids at the time the lot went live.

[vodou]

Reserves are often lowered by the big boys (Sotheby's, Chistie's) when anticipated 'support' pre-auction doesn't materialize. Or the consignor's expectations were unrealistic and some phone work is done to 'prove' it by the House. Either way, the pre-auction number starts looking pretty weak and the case is made by the House to consignor to lower the reserve to "get 'er done" (and thus not burn the piece for two seasons like happened at PIH...multiple times!)

 

I've never heard of reserves being raised from pre-auction to auction, but who knows...I'm sure everything possible has happened at least twice in the auction world, somewhere!

[Kevin76]

Still waiting for the Death Dealer paintings to come to auction.

[Bronty]

Keep waiting. Obviously they do those last ... why sell them first and have everything else be a let down? Either those are last, are sold gallery style, or aren't sold. Either way pull up a chair

[cstojano]

Yeah, DD1 will be the last one out the door.

[F For Fake]

Even so $750K is a long way from $1M for most folks.

 

"Most folks" is not the classification that people who have the cash to pay 500K or 750K, for a piece of OA, fall into.

 

I'd have to think if someone has 750K to spend on a single piece of OA, and the piece in question is desirable enough, they will probably not have an issue with putting down another 250K.

 

 

I agree with this in general, but I also believe that folks who have that kind of cash to spend didn't get into that position by overpaying for stuff. So while they may HAVE the money to pay $1 mil, that doesn't mean they're necessarily going to.

[delekkerste]

Yeah, DD1 will be the last one out the door.

 

Maybe, but most of the paintings held by the family have a price tag on them now, including the standouts. DD1 was at the Metropolis show; I think there may be something funky with that one, like the buyer has to buy the rights to the character as well as the painting (somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that, as I heard it second or third hand), but I know there are others in the DD series that are available for sale outright (I'm definitely NOT wrong about that). You just need to have the cash; it's not like these paintings are being held back, which I think is the right move by the family members - I really don't see the Frazetta market expanding as time goes by.

[Bronty]

I agree , but this was in context of seeing an auction. Either it gets sold for a flat price as you say, or it gets auctioned last - in other words if Shuleys hoping for a popcorn bowl and an entertaining auction, I don't see that happening

[stinkininkin]

Yeah, DD1 will be the last one out the door.

 

Maybe, but most of the paintings held by the family have a price tag on them now, including the standouts. DD1 was at the Metropolis show; I think there may be something funky with that one, like the buyer has to buy the rights to the character as well as the painting (somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that, as I heard it second or third hand), but I know there are others in the DD series that are available for sale outright (I'm definitely NOT wrong about that). You just need to have the cash; it's not like these paintings are being held back, which I think is the right move by the family members - I really don't see the Frazetta market expanding as time goes by.

 

I'd prefer Egyptian Queen over DD1 any day, but I admit I might be in the minority. DD1 is better known for sure, as are several of the Conan covers I would think? But Egyptian Queen?

 

Partial to babes over barbarians as well, especially of the Frazetta variety. Always figured there was a "babe tax" when it comes to Fraz art, much like the "Thing tax" in FF art and "Wolverine tax" in Xmen art. And add in a Fraz beast as with EQ with that great leopard? No one did cats better than Fraz! God, I'm such a Fraz nerd. That's it. I'm taking down ATEC tomorrow. Back the F off everyone and stay out of my way!!!

 

 

Scott

[cstojano]

Yeah, DD1 will be the last one out the door.

 

Maybe, but most of the paintings held by the family have a price tag on them now, including the standouts. DD1 was at the Metropolis show; I think there may be something funky with that one, like the buyer has to buy the rights to the character as well as the painting (somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that, as I heard it second or third hand), but I know there are others in the DD series that are available for sale outright (I'm definitely NOT wrong about that). You just need to have the cash; it's not like these paintings are being held back, which I think is the right move by the family members - I really don't see the Frazetta market expanding as time goes by.

 

I posted a question on a FB group about the possible slow trickle of minor pieces coming to market. The one response was that the family really doesn't have a lot of this type of material (the 1k DD "prelims" or studies, etc.). I was curious if the family was transparent about who got what and what is for sale. I know this is a touchy subject but it does inform bidding/purchasing decisions.

 

And given all the discussion about values in the previous posts, does anyone know what the price tags are for some of these paintings? This seems relevant to the ATEC discussion here.

[Bronty]

Good question, although I'd expect it to be a 'please inquire' kind of format.

[delekkerste]

Partial to babes over barbarians as well, especially of the Frazetta variety. Always figured there was a "babe tax" when it comes to Fraz art, much like the "Thing tax" in FF art and "Wolverine tax" in Xmen art. And add in a Fraz beast as with EQ with that great leopard? No one did cats better than Fraz!

 

Watch out, Scott...you're running dangerously close to being the next one accused of employing J. Evans Pritchard-type analysis techniques!

[comix4fun]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

 

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.

 

 

Current Market?

 

Are you taking into account ANY of the factors that might have led to those "non-sales" other than they didn't sell?

 

You're honestly going to use the two non sales in PIH at face value, without factoring in ANY of the logistics and hurdles that are entirely outside of desire to own the piece?

 

And you're going to try and apples to apples lesser pieces with a top ten piece?

 

What sells or doesn't sell at auction, in a vacuum, has no bearing on the complete market for any particular artist, especially if we're going to dodge all of the ancillary factors that may have let to potential bidders not partipating...WHICH INCLUDES that ATEC was going to hammer in a few days subsequent.

 

If you're actually a player in the OA market at any material level you then know that timing, supply, presentation, and perception of ease of acquisition, along with basic bidder psychology all factor into how a piece will sell or not sell at auction and for what number. All of which has very little to do with "market value."

 

Claiming something is overpriced at a certain number because it didn't sell on X day at Y time is far too simplistic and those dates and times and who's available to participate are the variables that make the difference between sale and no sale far more than simply "market value".

 

 

The other basic thing you're ignoring when determining "market value" for artwork is that the values at the very top of an artist's portfolio get very high very fast and at extreme multiples of what their still good but not iconic or premiere pieces sell for.

 

It's not a simple "This is 25% better so it will sell for 25% more". For many artists the top of their portfolio can sell for 10X, 20X, 100X what the quality, but not iconic, pieces in the middle will sell.

 

 

After this auction it is gonna be 3 pieces in a row, overpriced, over reserved ABOVE ACTUAL MARKET conditions or REALITY. Show me the money, if I am wrong..you cannot, because these sellers overestimated the value and demand at THAT PRICE for the art....

 

You can talk theory all you want....I just talk REALITY..show me the money....dont talk...show me the MONEY. With Ha.com and Profies you have the two best showcases in the world to sell the art...Profies catalog was amazing on the pieces and if you are a big bidder you will be the telephone, not trying to fiquire out some crazy internet way to do it.

 

I am not claiming, I am proving by market conditions those painting are not worth what the reserves are.....actions speak louder than words.......3 in a row, of over priced and over hyped Frit painting wannabe...hoping a sucker who looks at a 1.5 million dollar sale of a painting, by a money burning rock star...as true market value...May I remind you...the Market determines the value..not the hype, not the past, and certainly not a millions dollars+ on this piece.

 

 

 

[bocaratondefense]

Show me the money?

[comix4fun]

Show me the money?

 

 

I think that's what just happened.

[pemart1966]

Show me the money?

 

 

I think that's what just happened.

 

Yup - sold for $1,075,500 (inc BP)

[comix4fun]

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price and value......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.Show me the money, then talk about this piece being worth 1Mil.

 

 

 

 

 

[DeadpoolJr.]

I love that their already advertising the sale of the ATEC on the main page.