900K reserve not met on Frazetta painting.

[cstojano]

Younger generations are interested in the fantasy pieces that meant something to them not their dads - see mtg thread for five figure sales for tiny fantasy paintings that are not old?

 

True, but, as with Frazettas (also at record highs in terms of OA prices, but not underlying popularity), I suspect it's a pretty small niche of buyers for those paintings. And, as with Frazettas, what happens when the next generation takes over (granted, the runway for MTG is probably longer than it is for the aging Frazetta fan base)?

 

In any case, I don't think that underlying cultural or demographic trends are going to be very supportive of Frazetta (and fantasy art in general) in the future is the bottom line. Most (not all, but most) people I talk to about Frazetta tend to agree with that observation.

 

That said, if you love it and are comfortable with laying out the $$$, by all means, buy it. I buy lots of art that I love personally (largely for nostalgic reasons) but which will almost certainly not be appreciated to the same or greater extent by future generations. But, that's not why I buy the art - I buy it because I like looking at it and owning it, and because it is meaningful to me personally. If future generations don't appreciate it as much as I did, it may be my financial loss, but it's their loss for not being able to enjoy and appreciate it like I did.

 

In pop culture there is comics, sci-fi and fantasy. Fantasy always seem to be a distant third in the popularity realm. I have yet to find a fantasy online community as strong as you find with sci-fi ( I should add I don't follow MTG at all).

[Mmehdy]

ATEC is spectacular. Has a central female figure, monsters and beasts and is large with great detail.

 

Exactly - it has everything you would want in a GREAT Frazetta example. The other paintings mentioned are nice, but are nowhere close to being in the same league. Those are the Frazettas you get when you'd be content with a "nice example", whereas ATEC is the one you buy when you want one of the very best. And, there's nothing wrong with that - that's how a market functions, with different prices determining where different people are going to say "that's good enough for me".

 

Hey you guys may all be right but to me it's all fluff because if it sells its to precisely one buyer. To use Mitch's phrasing this is more of a gallery sale masquerading as an auction and it's totally dependent on what the one guy who wants to write the check likes.

 

they are shooting themselves in the foot...wasting everybody's time..look put the reserve at say 500K which is 595K get a couple of people interested and BINGO...suddenly you are at say 650K or more....just a waste of time, like sea witch..

 

I like this better than the sea witch in terms of the "size" of the girl...that was the weakness of the sea with...great painting and draftsmanship, really some of the best with this small girl..so this painting is better than sea with...which I value at max 500K...but this is not the princesss painting etc.

[cstojano]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum on?

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

But Destroyer was private right? Doesn't this public sale sully a piece in some way knowing it was shopped privately and likely passed on by previous clients? Destroyer is not the Conan I would choose, but I think its a far more desirable piece than ATEC.

[Mmehdy]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen? [/quote

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

[comix4fun]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum on?

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

But Destroyer was private right? Doesn't this public sale sully a piece in some way knowing it was shopped privately and likely passed on by previous clients? Destroyer is not the Conan I would choose, but I think its a far more desirable piece than ATEC.

 

 

Private, Public, it's a comparable. It's not Destroyer, but it's not 1/3 of Destroyer....7 years later.

 

It's incredibly difficult to "sully" one of Frazetta's top-10 paintings.

[comix4fun]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

[cstojano]

^ good point, all questions answered in 2 days time I suppose.

[comix4fun]

^ good point, all questions answered in 2 days time I suppose.

 

 

At least for this auction. I wouldn't be shocked if it made reserve or didn't make reserve. I don't think either outcome will change my estimate of value. I think if it sells it means the right person at the right time was ready to go. If it doesn't sell it's more indicative of timing or terms rather than a judgment on value.

 

I think it's an easy trap to fall into, and I am just as susceptible, to see any one auction result (in either direction) as some sort of bellwether for the entire market, or for an entire artist's work. It could just be that day, week, month, or specific piece. Auctions are a snapshot in time. You need the right buyers, with the right motivation, and the right funds, all converging on the same day to get the really eye-popping results.

 

If we remove any of those variables or, say, 2 of the 4 prime players for a piece and you'll have an outlier in the downward direction.....add them all back in or add in a new player and boom, you've got a shocker on the high end.

 

 

[Mmehdy]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

 

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price and value......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.Show me the money, then talk about this piece being worth 1Mil.

[buyatari]

This is so strange to me. If reserves aren't hidden then why wait several days to expose them? How exactly does a reserve with Heritage work?

 

Does the seller just call up Heritage to institute a reserve of X dollars on a whim? Then Heritage adds an asterix and raises the bidding to the new reserve price because a seller got cold feet all of a sudden?

 

 

Hey Adam.

 

So The seller sets reserve. A couple days before the auction, if the reserve hasn't been met, it gets bumped up to one bid below reserve and shown with an asterix

 

Comic link is somewhat similar, shows the asterix as well

 

Why not just start bidding at 900k then? Seems like a silly game to me.

 

 

 

 

It's not a game. It's allowing the piece to proceed, on an even footing, with all the other pieces in the auction regardless of reserve or the absence of reserve.

 

There's a negative connotation to reserves in an auction setting. Bidder psychology prevents them from become invested in a piece that begins at too high a number or with a reserve made known but not revealed.

 

To avoid pieces from progressing with a negative stigma because of a reserve, they allow all pieces to be bid on as if there were no reserves. Bidders become invested, begin to fantasize about ownership, begin to feel the auction competitive juices begin to flow, begin to consider ownership of a piece that they may have completely put out of their mind had the bidding started at reserve...or at FMV.

 

Then, by revealing the reserve, they do bidders the service of letting them know what the minimum number will be to take it home. They've given the sellers the full measure of promotion, visibility and attention for their piece and provided the potential buyers all the information they need in order to take the piece home and not waste time or resources on live auction day (not bidding on pieces that precede the reserve piece for example).

 

 

They must have a reason for doing things they way that they do but I don't like it. If something I was interested in were to jump overnight not because of bidding but a hidden reserve it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. All that bidding prior to the reserve being set was a meaningless waste of time. Reserves never made much sense to me. If you want a min price then I'd rather you just say that from the start.

[Bronty]

Yeah what Chris was saying boils down to 'they are trying to get you emotionally invested in it'. Lure you in to maybe meeting a reserve you wouldn't otherwise have done. Best IMO to just ignore or not bid until the end when there's no emotions. Luckily very few pieces on HA have a reserve anyways.

[comix4fun]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

 

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.

 

 

Current Market?

 

Are you taking into account ANY of the factors that might have led to those "non-sales" other than they didn't sell?

 

You're honestly going to use the two non sales in PIH at face value, without factoring in ANY of the logistics and hurdles that are entirely outside of desire to own the piece?

 

And you're going to try and apples to apples lesser pieces with a top ten piece?

 

What sells or doesn't sell at auction, in a vacuum, has no bearing on the complete market for any particular artist, especially if we're going to dodge all of the ancillary factors that may have let to potential bidders not partipating...WHICH INCLUDES that ATEC was going to hammer in a few days subsequent.

 

If you're actually a player in the OA market at any material level you then know that timing, supply, presentation, and perception of ease of acquisition, along with basic bidder psychology all factor into how a piece will sell or not sell at auction and for what number. All of which has very little to do with "market value."

 

Claiming something is overpriced at a certain number because it didn't sell on X day at Y time is far too simplistic and those dates and times and who's available to participate are the variables that make the difference between sale and no sale far more than simply "market value".

 

 

The other basic thing you're ignoring when determining "market value" for artwork is that the values at the very top of an artist's portfolio get very high very fast and at extreme multiples of what their still good but not iconic or premiere pieces sell for.

 

It's not a simple "This is 25% better so it will sell for 25% more". For many artists the top of their portfolio can sell for 10X, 20X, 100X what the quality, but not iconic, pieces in the middle will sell.

 

 

[comix4fun]

Yeah what Chris was saying boils down to 'they are trying to get you emotionally invested in it'. Lure you in to maybe meeting a reserve you wouldn't otherwise have done. Best IMO to just ignore or not bid until the end when there's no emotions. Luckily very few pieces on HA have a reserve anyways.

 

 

I think they prefer flat out auctions with no reserve because of all the varying perceptions involved...and that it guarantees a sale and commission. No one involved wants to waste their time dancing around a piece without a sale at the end.

 

 

[Bronty]

Yeah what Chris was saying boils down to 'they are trying to get you emotionally invested in it'. Lure you in to maybe meeting a reserve you wouldn't otherwise have done. Best IMO to just ignore or not bid until the end when there's no emotions. Luckily very few pieces on HA have a reserve anyways.

 

 

I think they prefer flat out auctions with no reserve because of all the varying perceptions involved...and that it guarantees a sale and commission. No one involved wants to waste their time dancing around a piece without a sale at the end.

 

 

sure

[Bronty]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

 

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.

 

 

Current Market?

 

Are you taking into account ANY of the factors that might have led to those "non-sales" other than they didn't sell?

 

You're honestly going to use the two non sales in PIH at face value, without factoring in ANY of the logistics and hurdles that are entirely outside of desire to own the piece?

 

And you're going to try and apples to apples lesser pieces with a top ten piece?

 

What sells or doesn't sell at auction, in a vacuum, has no bearing on the complete market for any particular artist, especially if we're going to dodge all of the ancillary factors that may have let to potential bidders not partipating...WHICH INCLUDES that ATEC was going to hammer in a few days subsequent.

 

If you're actually a player in the OA market at any material level you then know that timing, supply, presentation, and perception of ease of acquisition, along with basic bidder psychology all factor into how a piece will sell or not sell at auction and for what number. All of which has very little to do with "market value."

 

Claiming something is overpriced at a certain number because it didn't sell on X day at Y time is far too simplistic and those dates and times and who's available to participate are the variables that make the difference between sale and no sale far more than simply "market value".

 

 

The other basic thing you're ignoring when determining "market value" for artwork is that the values at the very top of an artist's portfolio get very high very fast and at extreme multiples of what their still good but not iconic or premiere pieces sell for.

 

It's not a simple "This is 25% better so it will sell for 25% more". For many artists the top of their portfolio can sell for 10X, 20X, 100X what the quality, but not iconic, pieces in the middle will sell.

 

 

U mad bro?

 

He's just sharing his opinion same as everyone else.

 

You can talk about destroyer as being a high data point, sure, but I think the spiderman piece was surprisingly reasonable, as a counterpoint.

[comix4fun]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

 

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.

 

 

Current Market?

 

Are you taking into account ANY of the factors that might have led to those "non-sales" other than they didn't sell?

 

You're honestly going to use the two non sales in PIH at face value, without factoring in ANY of the logistics and hurdles that are entirely outside of desire to own the piece?

 

And you're going to try and apples to apples lesser pieces with a top ten piece?

 

What sells or doesn't sell at auction, in a vacuum, has no bearing on the complete market for any particular artist, especially if we're going to dodge all of the ancillary factors that may have let to potential bidders not partipating...WHICH INCLUDES that ATEC was going to hammer in a few days subsequent.

 

If you're actually a player in the OA market at any material level you then know that timing, supply, presentation, and perception of ease of acquisition, along with basic bidder psychology all factor into how a piece will sell or not sell at auction and for what number. All of which has very little to do with "market value."

 

Claiming something is overpriced at a certain number because it didn't sell on X day at Y time is far too simplistic and those dates and times and who's available to participate are the variables that make the difference between sale and no sale far more than simply "market value".

 

 

The other basic thing you're ignoring when determining "market value" for artwork is that the values at the very top of an artist's portfolio get very high very fast and at extreme multiples of what their still good but not iconic or premiere pieces sell for.

 

It's not a simple "This is 25% better so it will sell for 25% more". For many artists the top of their portfolio can sell for 10X, 20X, 100X what the quality, but not iconic, pieces in the middle will sell.

 

 

U mad bro?

 

He's just sharing his opinion same as everyone else.

 

You can talk about destroyer as being a high data point, sure, but I think the spiderman piece was surprisingly reasonable, as a counterpoint.

 

 

Spider Man is Boris' Chinese Boy with Bowl (still a Boris, still a painting) compared to AETC which is, well....a really really good Boris.

 

 

Not mad. Just putting a little material perspective on the rectally originating pontificating.

 

Hard to not provide a counterpoint when I see something that clearly not based on anything but a cursory glance at a market and doesn't take any of the actual reasons for such sales or non sales into account.

 

[Mmehdy]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

 

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.

 

 

Current Market?

 

Are you taking into account ANY of the factors that might have led to those "non-sales" other than they didn't sell?

 

You're honestly going to use the two non sales in PIH at face value, without factoring in ANY of the logistics and hurdles that are entirely outside of desire to own the piece?

 

And you're going to try and apples to apples lesser pieces with a top ten piece?

 

What sells or doesn't sell at auction, in a vacuum, has no bearing on the complete market for any particular artist, especially if we're going to dodge all of the ancillary factors that may have let to potential bidders not partipating...WHICH INCLUDES that ATEC was going to hammer in a few days subsequent.

 

If you're actually a player in the OA market at any material level you then know that timing, supply, presentation, and perception of ease of acquisition, along with basic bidder psychology all factor into how a piece will sell or not sell at auction and for what number. All of which has very little to do with "market value."

 

Claiming something is overpriced at a certain number because it didn't sell on X day at Y time is far too simplistic and those dates and times and who's available to participate are the variables that make the difference between sale and no sale far more than simply "market value".

 

 

The other basic thing you're ignoring when determining "market value" for artwork is that the values at the very top of an artist's portfolio get very high very fast and at extreme multiples of what their still good but not iconic or premiere pieces sell for.

 

It's not a simple "This is 25% better so it will sell for 25% more". For many artists the top of their portfolio can sell for 10X, 20X, 100X what the quality, but not iconic, pieces in the middle will sell.

 

 

After this auction it is gonna be 3 pieces in a row, overpriced, over reserved ABOVE ACTUAL MARKET conditions or REALITY. Show me the money, if I am wrong..you cannot, because these sellers overestimated the value and demand at THAT PRICE for the art....

 

You can talk theory all you want....I just talk REALITY..show me the money....dont talk...show me the MONEY. With Ha.com and Profies you have the two best showcases in the world to sell the art...Profies catalog was amazing on the pieces and if you are a big bidder you will be the telephone, not trying to fiquire out some crazy internet way to do it.

 

I am not claiming, I am proving by market conditions those painting are not worth what the reserves are.....actions speak louder than words.......3 in a row, of over priced and over hyped Frit painting wannabe...hoping a sucker who looks at a 1.5 million dollar sale of a painting, by a money burning rock star...as true market value...May I remind you...the Market determines the value..not the hype, not the past, and certainly not a millions dollars+ on this piece.

[Bronty]

I love Frazetta, but I would be terrified to throw mid-6 to 7 figures at his work.

 

He's already out-priced all American illustrators not named Rockwell and there's little to no mainstream or art world crossover appeal for barbarians, monsters and topless damsels.

 

Prices are huge because of nostalgia combined with a previously restricted supply of his best work. The good stuff is now trickling slowly to market and the first-hand audience of his work is aging quickly (I'm almost 40 and his peak period was long before my time).

 

I agree with most of that, though, while it's been a trickle to the auction block, there's been a flood of paintings available through other venues (remember Metropolis' Frazetta gallery show last year, not to mention a good number of other paintings that have been offered privately since then as well). At high prices, of course, but it's still more examples on the market than perhaps ever before.

 

 

 

 

And, yeah, you have to wonder what the Frazetta market will look like in, say, 20-25 years given the demographic/nostalgia/cultural factors you've cited (though, I would argue that at least some of the same arguments could be applied to mainstream comic art and even high-end comic books - Action #1 and Tec #27 are already the most expensive books from the 20th century-onwards, and are among the most expensive of the past few hundred years). I think if you buy a Frazetta, you just have to really love it and be prepared to not get all your money out on the back end. I mean, if it happens, great, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it at these prices given the underlying trends you describe (more supply, aging fan/collector base, high prices, limited opportunity for crossover appeal, etc.)

 

As I've said in the past, I discovered Frazetta back in 1982 (a year before I discovered comics), as my mom was doing some translation work for the local library. As such, I spent a lot of time at the library and discovered those old REH Conan paperbacks with the Frazetta covers (which is why those remain my absolute favorite Frazettas to this day). Nowadays, though, if you go to the library for Conan books, the newer editions don't have the Frazetta covers. That is, if you don't just download the entire REH Conan oeuvre to your Kindle for like $2 (as I did myself). Younger people aren't discovering Frazetta through paperback covers, movie posters, etc. like they used to. And, the fantasy genre in general is not as popular as it used to be (remember how big Dungeons & Dragons and all those fantasy paperback novel series from the '70s and '80s - Conan, Shannara, DragonLance, etc. - used to be) and neither is the art and artists that went along with it.

 

Frazetta original prices may be at all-time highs (because there are, for now, enough well-heeled 40-something to 60-something buyers out there), but Frazetta's overall popularity and profile certainly is nowhere near what it was back in the '70s and early '80s when his images were ubiquitous and he was rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood A-list. I also think that, culturally, the fantasy genre as a whole has not aged as well as a lot of other pop culture artwork - I'd be surprised if there will ever be a groundswell of interest this material from the younger generations.

 

 

No question market value at a all time high, you will never get what you pay for today 20 years from now even taking into account inflation. Gene this is a 600K piece maximum....if you are going to spend 1 mil,,it is not gonna be on this piece,yes I like it, yes I saw it in person at SDCC and liked it better than the photos...it is just not worth 1,050,000..min bid, not even 750,000K..650K is pushing it...and even at that piece..who is gonna pay more? nobody

 

 

 

What are you basing the $600k maximum o

 

 

Are you just going to pretend the $1.5million Destroyer sale didn't happen?

 

 

I like the destroyer painting much better, if anything is worth a million that is...no comparison.... Clearly as gene as said, this is a peak period example which is why I am valuing it over 500K, to say 600-650....as fair is if the destroyer painting is worth 1.5...I don't know if the buyer could get that amount today....even if he wanted just to break even,it would have to sell for 1.8 million to pay Ha.com commission. I don't thank his prices are at that level, but for a "freak" buyer. Again, I really like the destroyer...one of the best and I see value at 1mil....but selling it for 1.8 or even say 1.5...just not gonna happen.]

 

So it's just a gut feeling then?

 

Given what Frank was offered, during his lifetime, for his paintings...and by several different people...I think your anecdotal gut feeling about where values should fall is just that...anecdotal.

 

I am basing my value at current market, auction prices..you will have TWO non-sales in a row in a couple of days...they are OVER current market price......and who knows over 500K there are a very limited number of buyers....650K is pressing it on this piece.

 

 

Current Market?

 

Are you taking into account ANY of the factors that might have led to those "non-sales" other than they didn't sell?

 

You're honestly going to use the two non sales in PIH at face value, without factoring in ANY of the logistics and hurdles that are entirely outside of desire to own the piece?

 

And you're going to try and apples to apples lesser pieces with a top ten piece?

 

What sells or doesn't sell at auction, in a vacuum, has no bearing on the complete market for any particular artist, especially if we're going to dodge all of the ancillary factors that may have let to potential bidders not partipating...WHICH INCLUDES that ATEC was going to hammer in a few days subsequent.

 

If you're actually a player in the OA market at any material level you then know that timing, supply, presentation, and perception of ease of acquisition, along with basic bidder psychology all factor into how a piece will sell or not sell at auction and for what number. All of which has very little to do with "market value."

 

Claiming something is overpriced at a certain number because it didn't sell on X day at Y time is far too simplistic and those dates and times and who's available to participate are the variables that make the difference between sale and no sale far more than simply "market value".

 

 

The other basic thing you're ignoring when determining "market value" for artwork is that the values at the very top of an artist's portfolio get very high very fast and at extreme multiples of what their still good but not iconic or premiere pieces sell for.

 

It's not a simple "This is 25% better so it will sell for 25% more". For many artists the top of their portfolio can sell for 10X, 20X, 100X what the quality, but not iconic, pieces in the middle will sell.

 

 

U mad bro?

 

He's just sharing his opinion same as everyone else.

 

You can talk about destroyer as being a high data point, sure, but I think the spiderman piece was surprisingly reasonable, as a counterpoint.

 

 

Boris' Chinese Boy with Bowl

 

Well, I told you where I live.

 

I just call that painting my front door. Or East Wing, sometimes its hard to tell

[buyatari]

Yeah what Chris was saying boils down to 'they are trying to get you emotionally invested in it'. Lure you in to maybe meeting a reserve you wouldn't otherwise have done. Best IMO to just ignore or not bid until the end when there's no emotions. Luckily very few pieces on HA have a reserve anyways.

 

 

I think they prefer flat out auctions with no reserve because of all the varying perceptions involved...and that it guarantees a sale and commission. No one involved wants to waste their time dancing around a piece without a sale at the end.

 

 

Worse than the risk of emotionally investment only to be given a teaser if the reserve isn't reasonable is the trust factor. If I can't see it from day one then I don't trust that the reserve hasn't been tweaked after bidding starts.

[comix4fun]

Yeah what Chris was saying boils down to 'they are trying to get you emotionally invested in it'. Lure you in to maybe meeting a reserve you wouldn't otherwise have done. Best IMO to just ignore or not bid until the end when there's no emotions. Luckily very few pieces on HA have a reserve anyways.

 

 

I think they prefer flat out auctions with no reserve because of all the varying perceptions involved...and that it guarantees a sale and commission. No one involved wants to waste their time dancing around a piece without a sale at the end.

 

 

Worse than the risk of emotionally investment only to be given a teaser if the reserve isn't reasonable is the trust factor. If I can't see it from day one then I don't trust that the reserve hasn't been tweaked after bidding starts.

 

 

Well, all the auctions do say "Reserves. if any, will post on "X" date". I tend to not take anything seriously until after that date. Reserves still put a damper on my enthusiasm, but I've been active in these types of auctions since 1992, so there isn't much in the way of getting me emotionally invested that anyone could do at this point to me.

 

Heritage, or any auction house, has no reason to allow an unreasonable reserve to be set, much less to alter it to be even higher in the middle of bidding. The auction house only reaps the benefits of their efforts with pieces selling.