1968 - the year Marvel sold out??

[rjpb]

I was just discovering Marvel in 1968, and didn't really become a fanboy until 1970, right as Kirby left. By 1971, conventions started popping up in my neck of the woods, and was cheap and easy to buy back issues with paper route money. From the perspective of just a few years later there was a sense that the 1968 expansion was the crest of wave, the following year being a great one, what with Cap, Fury and Hulk getting their own books, Steranko reaching new heights, Spider-man in his Romita era prime, and Kirby still on FF.

 

But by the early 70s , it definitely felt like the first Marvel era was over, mostly due to Kirby having left. There were still a few high points, like Adams' few books, the Ploog supernatural books, and BWS's Conan, but I can remember as a thirteen year old wishing I could have experienced the Marvel Age of the 1960s, finding those books far preferable to what came after.

[Dick Pontoon]

Lee's Surfer missed for me, too.

Kirby's intention, that the Surfer be an alien/god learning the nobility of humanity (a Kirby theme), was replaced by Lee's "man sacrificing all for his people".

 

IMO, Lee's version fares much better in the context of its era. The folks who read them at the time they were published adore them! The Lee/Buscema Silver Surfer is one of the very earliest "relevant" comic runs, but it may not hold up for everyone.

 

It's very much of its time - an earnest, angsty, quasi-polemical work aimed squarely at the college crowd with some career-best art from John Buscema. The first issue is one of the best comics ever published - it's more story - driven, obviously, detailing the Surfer's origin, and very ambitious for Lee. The Badoon and Mephisto issues (2 and 3) are tour de forces with palpable, worthwhile adversaries. Issue 4 is considered a high point but the plot (Loki deceives the Surfer into battling Thor) is Marvel Method 101.

 

Yes, but...

 

The plot device might be old hat but Buscema hit it straight out of the park on that issue. It's an incredible amalgam of Kirby house style, Steranko's overtures to modern art and psychedelia and Buscema's own great draftsmanship topped off with Sal's inks, John's favorite inker for his pencils. Surfer #1 pales in comparison, especially given the overriding weltschmerz.

[VintageComics]

Kirby on the outs would also affect Marvel story telling over all.

 

So would having more titles to cover.

 

Stan Lee being stretched thinner would have changed how stories were told and outside influences coming in from other writers would change Marvel forever.

 

I don't know if selling out is the right time. Everything was changing. Even the social landscape outside of comics was changing.

[Mr. 10%]

'68 was the year where Kirby stopped pouring his endless stream of creativity into the Marvel titles. And he began saving his ideas and creations for future projects outside of Marvel. The corp which had ripped him off, and would continue to do so the NeXT 40 years. Kirby's new orientation was to become The Fourth World.

 

And that is one friggin nice strip!

 

And after Kirby left Marvel, Lee hasnt since produced any comic worth any notice. Just sayin ...

[vaillant]

Lee's Surfer missed for me, too.

Kirby's intention, that the Surfer be an alien/god learning the nobility of humanity (a Kirby theme), was replaced by Lee's "man sacrificing all for his people".

 

IMO, Lee's version fares much better in the context of its era. The folks who read them at the time they were published adore them! The Lee/Buscema Silver Surfer is one of the very earliest "relevant" comic runs, but it may not hold up for everyone.

 

It's very much of its time - an earnest, angsty, quasi-polemical work aimed squarely at the college crowd with some career-best art from John Buscema. The first issue is one of the best comics ever published - it's more story - driven, obviously, detailing the Surfer's origin, and very ambitious for Lee. The Badoon and Mephisto issues (2 and 3) are tour de forces with palpable, worthwhile adversaries.

What do you mean by that? What is the "college crowd"?

Curiously I have never read Stan's original Silver Surfer's series as I always loved the Surfer as a very important but not "center stage" character: the Fantastic Four stories acquire more and more depth but I have never seen him fit to have a full series devoted to him.

[vaillant]

ìBut by the early 70s , it definitely felt like the first Marvel era was over, mostly due to Kirby having left. There were still a few high points, like Adams' few books, the Ploog supernatural books, and BWS's Conan, but I can remember as a thirteen year old wishing I could have experienced the Marvel Age of the 1960s, finding those books far preferable to what came after.

Oh well, having read the Marvel age "in perspective", with the opportunity (being in Italy) to read both the early classics up to the mid-to-late 1970s stories I honestly see high peaks in many moments, except the "critical" late 1970s when Stan leaves for Hollywood, and the figure of the "Editor-in-chief" changes with Jim Shooter's unorthodox approach. To me, the real basis of the decline are to trace around these years. Then there is the 1989-1991 point highlighted by that site's author.

Then there is Civil War… These are three nodal points to me.

[vaillant]

But by the early 70s , it definitely felt like the first Marvel era was over, mostly due to Kirby having left. There were still a few high points, like Adams' few books, the Ploog supernatural books, and BWS's Conan, but I can remember as a thirteen year old wishing I could have experienced the Marvel Age of the 1960s, finding those books far preferable to what came after.

Gerber's Morbius was great, and so was the Son of Satan (despite the sales, it appears). Many other series which did not last much were great as well.

 

In the 1980s the New Mutants started mildly but them (and Power Pack) became great series, I think most periods had a good deal of quality stuff, at least up to 1989.

The early 1980s appear more dull, and all the commercial/toys tied titles feel "forced" to me, but I have little familiarity with them (Micronauts, Shogun Warriors, ROM and Crystar were never published in Italy – they recovered ROM in the 1990s but I did not read it).

[piper]

'68 was the year where Kirby stopped pouring his endless stream of creativity into the Marvel titles. And he began saving his ideas and creations for future projects outside of Marvel. The corp which had ripped him off, and would continue to do so the NeXT 40 years. Kirby's new orientation was to become The Fourth World.

 

And that is one friggin nice strip!

 

And after Kirby left Marvel, Lee hasnt since produced any comic worth any notice. Just sayin ...

 

Kirby's art on Fourth World was cool but the dialogue and plotting left something to be desired.

[goldust40]

What do you mean by that? What is the "college crowd"?

 

An older readership than usual, of college age, who wouldn't necessarily admit to liking what was considered to be the tail end of pop culture but were being courted by Stan's more mature stories.

[vaillant]

What do you mean by that? What is the "college crowd"?

 

An older readership than usual, of college age, who wouldn't necessarily admit to liking what was considered to be the tail end of pop culture but were being courted by Stan's more mature stories.

Thanks, now it’s much clearer. Well, it’s definitely important then (aside from Stan's actual skills or artistry). If the O'Neill/Adams issues of Green Lantern have been so much praised (and I find them quite unaccomplished) then at least Stan deserves a praise for "daring so much" with the Silver Surfer. A pity that he did not think it was worthy to continue with comics.

 

'68 was the year where Kirby stopped pouring his endless stream of creativity into the Marvel titles. And he began saving his ideas and creations for future projects outside of Marvel. The corp which had ripped him off, and would continue to do so the NeXT 40 years. Kirby's new orientation was to become The Fourth World.

 

And that is one friggin nice strip!

 

And after Kirby left Marvel, Lee hasnt since produced any comic worth any notice. Just sayin ...

 

Kirby's art on Fourth World was cool but the dialogue and plotting left something to be desired.

Well, dialogue has always been a bit "on and off" with Jack, but the Fourth World, and that holds true even more in hindsight, appears as an experiment. And even more ambitious than Silver Surfer: all the biblical and european heritage of Jack emerges there, and in the Demon. Not fully "accomplished" works, but essential.

[Ken Aldred]

'68 was the year where Kirby stopped pouring his endless stream of creativity into the Marvel titles. And he began saving his ideas and creations for future projects outside of Marvel. The corp which had ripped him off, and would continue to do so the NeXT 40 years. Kirby's new orientation was to become The Fourth World.

 

And that is one friggin nice strip!

 

And after Kirby left Marvel, Lee hasnt since produced any comic worth any notice. Just sayin ...

 

Kirby's art on Fourth World was cool but the dialogue and plotting left something to be desired.

 

I think it was World's Worst Comics that described his dialogue as 'word jazz'.

 

I have a bit of a focus on Kirby's pointless 'air quoting' when I'm reading his stuff.

 

Occasionally, his writing can sound a little like bombastic, over-the-top metal lyrics to me.

 

That said, I do like some of his post-SA work; Fourth World, Demon, Kamandi, Eternals.

[VintageComics]

then at least Stan deserves a praise for "daring so much" with the Silver Surfer. A pity that he did not think it was worthy to continue with comics.

 

If you're talking about the end of the Surfer's own series, that was plagued by a feud between Stan and Kirby.

[vaillant]

then at least Stan deserves a praise for "daring so much" with the Silver Surfer. A pity that he did not think it was worthy to continue with comics.

 

If you're talking about the end of the Surfer's own series, that was plagued by a feud between Stan and Kirby.

No, I was thinking about 1977-78.

I believe the others were talking more about the decline of the Surfer's series.

[rjpb]

I found The Demon and Kamandi more interesting than his 4th World stuff when I was a kid. Mr. Miracle had a GA hero vibe I dug, but the rest of it felt overblown and bordered on parody.

[vaillant]

I found The Demon and Kamandi more interesting than his 4th World stuff when I was a kid. Mr. Miracle had a GA hero vibe I dug, but the rest of it felt overblown and bordered on parody.

The Demon and Kamandi are better accomplished, it clearly shows, but the fascination of the Fourth World books lies in their experimental nature.

I can’t see where you see parody anyway, they were all extremely serious, especially the New Gods. Maybe you were referring to Mr. Miracle, then I see it, it’s deliberate. Its relative light-heartedness was meant to counterbalance the tale of Orion.

[Ken Aldred]

I found The Demon and Kamandi more interesting than his 4th World stuff when I was a kid. Mr. Miracle had a GA hero vibe I dug, but the rest of it felt overblown and bordered on parody.

The Demon and Kamandi are better accomplished, it clearly shows, but the fascination of the Fourth World books lies in their experimental nature.

I can’t see where you see parody anyway, they were all extremely serious, especially the New Gods. Maybe you were referring to Mr. Miracle, then I see it, it’s deliberate. Its relative light-heartedness was meant to counterbalance the tale of Orion.

 

Orion could be extremely shouty and quite metal-sounding at times.

[vaillant]

I found The Demon and Kamandi more interesting than his 4th World stuff when I was a kid. Mr. Miracle had a GA hero vibe I dug, but the rest of it felt overblown and bordered on parody.

The Demon and Kamandi are better accomplished, it clearly shows, but the fascination of the Fourth World books lies in their experimental nature.

I can’t see where you see parody anyway, they were all extremely serious, especially the New Gods. Maybe you were referring to Mr. Miracle, then I see it, it’s deliberate. Its relative light-heartedness was meant to counterbalance the tale of Orion.

 

Orion could be extremely shouty and quite metal-sounding at times.

Yes, the point about the Fourth World was the focus on the inner world of the characters, especially the relationship between Orion and his father.

Jack Kirby told me that he did not know how he would have ended the series if it hadn't been interrupted by the "DC implosion" ("The Hunger Dogs" came a lot later), but it was clear that Orion was a character he loved.

While some titles (Forever People) seem less "finished" and a bit rushed up, each title has its distinct character.

[rjpb]

I found The Demon and Kamandi more interesting than his 4th World stuff when I was a kid. Mr. Miracle had a GA hero vibe I dug, but the rest of it felt overblown and bordered on parody.

The Demon and Kamandi are better accomplished, it clearly shows, but the fascination of the Fourth World books lies in their experimental nature.

I can’t see where you see parody anyway, they were all extremely serious, especially the New Gods. Maybe you were referring to Mr. Miracle, then I see it, it’s deliberate. Its relative light-heartedness was meant to counterbalance the tale of Orion.

 

It was that verbose overwrought seriousness that actually made them seem like a parody of Lee/Kirby era Marvel.

[fastballspecial]

Quick question because this is well before my collecting years.

 

In 1968 Marvel started publishing covers with iconic pictures in the background in black and white. Strange Tales, Submariner, Daredevil and so on. I have gotten several of those covers over the years, but does anyone know where I can find a list of them to see if I have them all? As well as the history behind that decision?

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

Quick question because this is well before my collecting years.

 

In 1968 Marvel started publishing covers with iconic pictures in the background in black and white. Strange Tales, Submariner, Daredevil and so on. I have gotten several of those covers over the years, but does anyone know where I can find a list of them to see if I have them all? As well as the history behind that decision?

 

 

 

Can you give a specific issue with an example?

 

Are you talking photo covers?