• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Can you guess why you probably shouldn't buy this "Jack Kirby" piece?
2 2

376 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, AndyFish said:

"In the manner of" was designed to protect a seller who was unsure of the provenance of an item, but of course scammers latched onto it.   There is a pretty well known Big Two artist who passed away a few years ago and left behind a large amount of both his own originals and a pile of sketches from other notable artists.   His wife was telling me that at shows he would often trade sketches with artists he liked.   I was present at a couple of shows and saw this happen first hand with two artists who I really like and admire.   None of these have any kind of COAs of course and there are a good percentage from big name artists.  She's finally thinking about moving some of these items at various auctions and her attorney advised her to use "in the manner of" for the other artist pieces but I bristled at the mention of it purely because of the sour note these thieves have caused the term.   

I think she'd be better served selling the non-husband originals in bulk to a reputable art dealer than dealing with individual buyers.    For her husband's originals-- and I'll tell you there are THOUSANDS of pages-- they take up an entire room-- she can't flood the market because it will devalue his work, I think her best bet there would be to assemble complete books and then sell them that way.

-- am I wrong in this thinking?

When the art works of others is sold they should be listed as from the X Y Collection. Then in detail describe the estate artists method of acquiring and trading for art from other artists.

They will fly off the auction block. I’m ready to buy right now and I have t seen one piece yet!

I’m glad his loved one(s) will be taken care of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello everybody,

Just my first post, I would like, humbly, to have your expert opinion on this sketch :

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/80896125_orig-thor-pi-illus-howdy-pal-sgn-jack-kirby-1969

 

I know the place and its reputation, and doubts, so, can be raised, but does this sketch seems legit ?

IHMO, I would say yes, based on :

  • the year (Kirby attended the early conventions at this 60's period)
  • the character was one he was currently drawing at the time
  • some stylish parts of the drawing
  • and the bad quality of the roller pen which could complicate a forgery in my opinion.

What do you think of it ? 

Many thanks in advance.

Edited by Ecclectica
I want to be more precise in my message
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Ecclectica said:

Hello everybody,

Just my first post, I would like, humbly, to have your expert opinion on this sketch :

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/80896125_orig-thor-pi-illus-howdy-pal-sgn-jack-kirby-1969

 

I know the place and its reputation, and doubts, so, can be raised, but does this sketch seems legit ?

IHMO, I would say yes, based on :

  • the year (Kirby attended the early conventions at this 60's period)
  • the character was one he was currently drawing at the time
  • some stylish parts of the drawing
  • and the bad quality of the roller pen which could complicate a forgery in my opinion.

What do you think of it ? 

Many thanks in advance.

Here's a '68 quick sketch to compare the Thor.  The "P" in pal is concerning. 

19680000-BlackPanther_adj.thumb.jpg.20eea31cff11550524058c38f12676dc.jpgimageproxy.php?img=&key=c846ed7a40be7761

 

 

80896125_1_x.thumb.jpg.c5a3f35798e6dba51c5bdcc38be1944d.jpg

 

Edited by Blastaar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/18/2020 at 8:56 AM, Ecclectica said:

Hello everybody,

Just my first post, I would like, humbly, to have your expert opinion on this sketch :

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/80896125_orig-thor-pi-illus-howdy-pal-sgn-jack-kirby-1969

 

I know the place and its reputation, and doubts, so, can be raised, but does this sketch seems legit ?

IHMO, I would say yes, based on :

  • the year (Kirby attended the early conventions at this 60's period)
  • the character was one he was currently drawing at the time
  • some stylish parts of the drawing
  • and the bad quality of the roller pen which could complicate a forgery in my opinion.

What do you think of it ? 

Many thanks in advance.

Interesting. This is a head-scratcher. I'd cautiously say it's real - but if I were a prospective bidder I'd do more research, and be prepared to find out it's not. 

None of the reasons you give suggest, to me, that it's real. I can't see why a forger wouldn't know when Kirby drew or what characters he drew.  I'm a little more intrigued by the context of the auction:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/search/?house_id=1940&keyword=ORIG. OR THOR OR P%2FI OR ILLUS. OR \"HOWDY OR PAL\" OR SGN. OR JACK OR KIRBY OR 1969&status=online%2Clive%2Cupcoming

This is where it gets a little gritty - there's other OA here, some Sam Glanzman covers, and a lot of work belonging to or executed by Ron Wilber.  About five minutes with google shows he was an artist with a few credits, mostly softcore, sort of fanzine-y.  He would have been 15 in 1969.  So...maybe? 

The medium is a red flag, as I've seen very very few ballpoint pen pieces, so I can't say for sure how Jack drew with a ballpoint pen.  Maybe like this?  There's some confidence in the linework that I like and then some really weird choices (look at how he did the feathering on Thor's helmet, the strangeness of Mjolnir's strap) that are either exactly how he'd do it, or completely wrong. 

So: dunno, leaning toward "sure," unsurprised if it's something someone else did, but it's interesting. 

EDIT: if someone with more time on their hands goes through an image search, and can't find a corresponding, pre-existing pose this could have been swiped from, that would be to this piece's credit.  I just saw one other detail in this that made me like it a bit more, sorta, but I've found that disclosing "how to distinguish a real Kirby" lessons posted on line are really good for future forgers.  The real test would be taking it out of the frame and looking at it in person.  Like: why is it folded? Was it in an envelope?

 

 

Edited by glendgold
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really interesting comments already.

> I've seen very very few ballpoint pen pieces, so I can't say for sure how Jack drew with a ballpoint pen.

That's the first one I see, and if somebody can point me to one another, I would be glad to look at it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Blastaar said:

Always such a smart aleck. >:(

No I meant that...there's some basic problems I'm seeing that Kirby would never do. I LOVE "good" Jack Kirby art :)

Back to "Kirby would never do"...like those Erik Larson "knees down to feet", that's Erik-stylized-Kirby not Kirby. Writing that does not mean I think Erik touched this, no, I'm just pointing out what I see there...first thing that comes to mind -muscle memory- is Erik Larson "doing Jack Kirby" Thor through th Erik-filter not Jack Kirby doing Thor. That's from looking at Kirby Thor my whole life, unconsciously absorbing "it"...that's how some of us call "off" or "not right" on something. Maybe it's not fake, but it's not "right" either to our muscle memory of such things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, glendgold said:

Interesting. This is a head-scratcher. I'd cautiously say it's real

Having written the immediate above (previous post), I'll upfront admit that crossing Glen Gold re: Kirby usually means "you" are wrong, not Glen. So...I'm prepared for that ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EDIT: Someone I respect tells me he thinks it's fake. He doesn't like the writing, nor the weird details like the strap.  So my position is (shrug).

Nonetheless, if someone wins this, get it out of that frame, carefully - the peril of being up against glass is probably equal to the peril of the acids in that cardboard backing. 

 

 

Edited by glendgold
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Couple sketches for comparison around the same time. X factor always being a kid have been sitting next to Jack on a plane and he grabbed a pen and cranked this out in under two minutes and not giving a tight sketch. Notice the similar feathering on that 1st Thor. 

 

H21217-L174208672_mid.jpg.10234e1f0b26d7d8a3c9d70251dcaa97.jpg

5b6fe30cc55411eefad8ba1bcd0c3706.thumb.jpg.6be6af3ff60259c3a14f52ae23df6890.jpgimageproxy.php?img=&key=c846ed7a40be7761

images.jpg.7cd712b81014d2cad10f80cc3f1c7f21.jpg

 

ThorKR.thumb.jpg.6c40140401d75f0b7c815bee754e4de2.jpg

Edited by Blastaar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Undecided on this one.  As has already been noted, the fact that it's drawn in pen and not pencilled worries me.  Personally, I wouldn't buy - even if it had a BIN of $25 - as there would always be a level of doubt in my mind.

Edited by The Voord
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Blastaar said:

Here's a '68 quick sketch to compare the Thor.  The "P" in pal is concerning. 

19680000-BlackPanther_adj.thumb.jpg.20eea31cff11550524058c38f12676dc.jpgimageproxy.php?img=&key=c846ed7a40be7761

 

 

80896125_1_x.thumb.jpg.c5a3f35798e6dba51c5bdcc38be1944d.jpg

 

I wish Vince Colletta was here to erase those  “Kirby” hands.

I’m not paying the 25% BP If I have to take that picture frame.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that the Thor looks legit.  I like the writing and the numbers as well. As Blastaar pointed out - it could have been done anywhere with the only thing that was handy - a pen.

If it was at a show would Jack have even been charging in '68?  What show(s) would he have been at in 1968?

The fold might be explained as young Billy got the sketch and folded it so that he could put it in his back pocket - this would keep both his hands free for the rest of the show.

Edited by pemart1966
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not being a Kirby expert but:

1) Agreed with the style of Larsen doing Kirby, especially the left hand and lower legs

2) the bareness of the upper legs and arms - barely any squiggle

3) Right elbow & bicep ??? :sick:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The part of this ball point sketch that I keep staring at is Thor's boot's...tongue, I guess?  That slashing diagonal line  of shading is divided into two sections to indicate that the fabric is bending,  which is pretty advanced for a forgery...unless it's copying something  Jack did that all the time. Which he didn't.  I've been combing over Thor pencil pieces and he seems to have done the shading on this part of the costume every which way, horizontal, vertical, etc.  So...I dunno. 

 

Screen Shot 2020-02-20 at 9.43.59 AM.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, glendgold said:

The part of this ball point sketch that I keep staring at is Thor's boot's...tongue, I guess?  That slashing diagonal line  of shading is divided into two sections to indicate that the fabric is bending,  which is pretty advanced for a forgery...unless it's copying something  Jack did that all the time. Which he didn't.  I've been combing over Thor pencil pieces and he seems to have done the shading on this part of the costume every which way, horizontal, vertical, etc.  So...I dunno. 

 

Screen Shot 2020-02-20 at 9.43.59 AM.png

I can’t find this image anywhere else. I can’t produce a piece this may have been copied from. There are touches that feel like Kirby.

Conversely I don’t like the hands. 
If one were to buy it, can you live with the fact there is no way to say it’s Kirby and not a skilled fake? I wish we had a provenance explanation at least.

Its tempting for those who like to gamble. I’m not that guy when it comes to art. I’m leaning a no on this one. It’s a shame if it actually is a Kirby. 
 

Times running out on the auction if I have anything else to help the OP decide I’ll be sure to contribute.

5A394760-6516-4074-AD73-6D9B3CE09C2F.thumb.jpeg.0df03a50a6d75675a3485070f847a5f5.jpeg

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
2 2