Black hole collectors/collections? 0

[AKA Rick]

My definition of a true Black Hole Collector, adheres 100% to the rules of Fight Club... "don't talk about it"

 

By telling someone you are a Black Hole Collector, you're then not one, as you're revealing unnecessary information.

 

By using CAF and showcasing your properties, you're not adhering to the rhetorical evaluation of "what do I have to gain and what do I have to lose" by showing what you have. The downside is always around theft, disclosure and negative events. The upside is generally if a sales opportunity comes up. The middle ground called "noise pollution" is just the bragging, swagger, showing off, boasting, hoping others will envy you, and all of the emotions around vanity; as well as the true altruistic wanting to simply share with the community of course.

 

Usually there's only a few people who know what a Black Hole Collector owns, the person who sold it to them and that collector themselves. You're not a Black Hole Collector if you disclose to anyone with the disclaimer "...but don't tell anyone"

 

The Black Hole Collector's collection is only revealed when they come out of the closet to sell or share their wares; or in most cases they die and the collection emerges into the marketplace through his or her heirs.

 

I don't know many true Black Hole Collectors, since most don't reveal themselves. I know a lot of discreet hybrid BHC's 'tho, and they're pretty good at keeping to that "The Game is to Be Sold, Not Told" motto, only coming out when something is for sale, but never letting others know what's in the vault that's not yet for sale, nor boasting about recent acquisitions.

[Ironmandrd]

 

If you can see it, there is always the possibility of "escape." When you can't see it; when it disappears from all radars and is never seen anywhere, then it is in a "black hole collection." A "black hole" cannot be penetrated and show what is on the other side. If you can see the art publicly, then it is not "inescapable."

 

I don't think we have to take it so literally--there will always be some minor variations and exceptions and that doesn't change that they are still black holes.

 

Black Hole is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Ironmandrd

[Ironmandrd]

Unless we are talking about some kind of museum thing, then that isn't true. Everything and everyone has their price. It's just a matter of meeting it. You may not want to, considering it too much to pay. Or you might not be able to, if you are of more meager financial means. But if you offer then the "right" amount, they will cave. You just have to be willing to go to any financial length to make that happen. Most people don't. That is why the piece seem "inescapable."

 

This is a rather broad statement. Sorry, but just because you can see it, doesn't mean that for the right price, it can be obtained.

 

 

 

[J.Sid]

There are some people who it is a waste of time to throw offers at. These people are black holes.

 

Friends would point out these "Black Hole" collectors to me as a way of helping me to not waste my time and energy.

[Meeley Man]

My definition of a true Black Hole Collector, adheres 100% to the rules of Fight Club... "don't talk about it"

 

By telling someone you are a Black Hole Collector, you're then not one, as you're revealing unnecessary information.

 

The Black Hole Collector's collection is only revealed when they come out of the closet to sell or share their wares; or in most cases they die and the collection emerges into the marketplace through his or her heirs.

 

 

[Meeley Man]

Unless we are talking about some kind of museum thing, then that isn't true. Everything and everyone has their price. It's just a matter of meeting it. You may not want to, considering it too much to pay. Or you might not be able to, if you are of more meager financial means. But if you offer then the "right" amount, they will cave. You just have to be willing to go to any financial length to make that happen. Most people don't. That is why the piece seem "inescapable."

 

This is a rather broad statement. Sorry, but just because you can see it, doesn't mean that for the right price, it can be obtained.

 

 

 

Actually, it does. Whether you are willing or able to MEET the price it would take, well, that a whole other kettle of fish.

[Ironmandrd]

Unless we are talking about some kind of museum thing, then that isn't true. Everything and everyone has their price. It's just a matter of meeting it. You may not want to, considering it too much to pay. Or you might not be able to, if you are of more meager financial means. But if you offer then the "right" amount, they will cave. You just have to be willing to go to any financial length to make that happen. Most people don't. That is why the piece seem "inescapable."

 

This is a rather broad statement. Sorry, but just because you can see it, doesn't mean that for the right price, it can be obtained.

 

Actually, it does. Whether you are willing or able to MEET the price it would take, well, that a whole other kettle of fish.

 

Again, sorry, no. Maybe that might seem like a good theory but it doesn't reflect reality. I can think of a bunch of collectors with varying levels of collections (smaller collections up to BSDs), and they each have pieces that are "unobtainable" at ANY price (often because they are tied to strong nostalgic feelings).

 

Even in my own collection, there are pieces that literally no amount of money could make me part with them. It has nothing to do with their value and everything to do with factors like nostalgia, the years of effort it took to obtain a piece and/or the years of regret I'd have if I ever let the piece go.

[Meeley Man]

Unless we are talking about some kind of museum thing, then that isn't true. Everything and everyone has their price. It's just a matter of meeting it. You may not want to, considering it too much to pay. Or you might not be able to, if you are of more meager financial means. But if you offer then the "right" amount, they will cave. You just have to be willing to go to any financial length to make that happen. Most people don't. That is why the piece seem "inescapable."

 

This is a rather broad statement. Sorry, but just because you can see it, doesn't mean that for the right price, it can be obtained.

 

Actually, it does. Whether you are willing or able to MEET the price it would take, well, that a whole other kettle of fish.

 

Again, sorry, no. Maybe that might seem like a good theory but it doesn't reflect reality. I can think of a bunch of collectors with varying levels of collections (smaller collections up to BSDs), and they each have pieces that are "unobtainable" at ANY price (often because they are tied to strong nostalgic feelings).

 

Even in my own collection, there are pieces that literally no amount of money could make me part with them. It has nothing to do with their value and everything to do with factors like nostalgia, the years of effort it took to obtain a piece and/or the years of regret I'd have if I ever let the piece go.

 

If the offer was outrageous enough, they will sell. Again, it may be a price that no sane person would think could ever be made. To obtain the piece, would require meeting a ridiculous amount few people even had access to, much less would actually offer. But it could be done. It may be IMPROBABLE, but not IMPOSSIBLE. But with a "black hole collector," whom you don't even know who they are or what they have, even that remote improbability becomes impossible.

[Ironmandrd]

Unless we are talking about some kind of museum thing, then that isn't true. Everything and everyone has their price. It's just a matter of meeting it. You may not want to, considering it too much to pay. Or you might not be able to, if you are of more meager financial means. But if you offer then the "right" amount, they will cave. You just have to be willing to go to any financial length to make that happen. Most people don't. That is why the piece seem "inescapable."

 

This is a rather broad statement. Sorry, but just because you can see it, doesn't mean that for the right price, it can be obtained.

 

Actually, it does. Whether you are willing or able to MEET the price it would take, well, that a whole other kettle of fish.

 

Again, sorry, no. Maybe that might seem like a good theory but it doesn't reflect reality. I can think of a bunch of collectors with varying levels of collections (smaller collections up to BSDs), and they each have pieces that are "unobtainable" at ANY price (often because they are tied to strong nostalgic feelings).

 

Even in my own collection, there are pieces that literally no amount of money could make me part with them. It has nothing to do with their value and everything to do with factors like nostalgia, the years of effort it took to obtain a piece and/or the years of regret I'd have if I ever let the piece go.

 

If the offer was outrageous enough, they will sell. Again, it may be a price that no sane person would think could ever be made. To obtain the piece, would require meeting a ridiculous amount few people even had access to, much less would actually offer. But it could be done. It may be IMPROBABLE, but not IMPOSSIBLE. But with a "black hole collector," whom you don't even know who they are or what they have, even that remote improbability becomes impossible.

 

No, no, no, no, no, a thousand times no. No matter how outrageous the offer, it's not improbable, it's impossible. I recall a conversation at dinner at last year's NYCC where someone at the table said that he would never sell a particular cover (worth about $25k) since it was the cover to the first comic he could recall reading and that got him hooked on comics. And when asked if he received an offer of $1million on it, he replied in seriousness he still would not sell, no matter how much money was offered. Sorry, such people and views do in fact exist.

 

For the benefit of readers and my own sanity, this is my last post to you on this point.

 

Edit Addendum: I'm not saying that people don't sell "grails" that they said they would never sell. That happens. But the flipside exists too -- sometimes there are true grails that people don't sell, no matter what actual or theoretical offers they do or might get.

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Ironmandrd

[Meeley Man]

Unless we are talking about some kind of museum thing, then that isn't true. Everything and everyone has their price. It's just a matter of meeting it. You may not want to, considering it too much to pay. Or you might not be able to, if you are of more meager financial means. But if you offer then the "right" amount, they will cave. You just have to be willing to go to any financial length to make that happen. Most people don't. That is why the piece seem "inescapable."

 

This is a rather broad statement. Sorry, but just because you can see it, doesn't mean that for the right price, it can be obtained.

 

Actually, it does. Whether you are willing or able to MEET the price it would take, well, that a whole other kettle of fish.

 

Again, sorry, no. Maybe that might seem like a good theory but it doesn't reflect reality. I can think of a bunch of collectors with varying levels of collections (smaller collections up to BSDs), and they each have pieces that are "unobtainable" at ANY price (often because they are tied to strong nostalgic feelings).

 

Even in my own collection, there are pieces that literally no amount of money could make me part with them. It has nothing to do with their value and everything to do with factors like nostalgia, the years of effort it took to obtain a piece and/or the years of regret I'd have if I ever let the piece go.

 

If the offer was outrageous enough, they will sell. Again, it may be a price that no sane person would think could ever be made. To obtain the piece, would require meeting a ridiculous amount few people even had access to, much less would actually offer. But it could be done. It may be IMPROBABLE, but not IMPOSSIBLE. But with a "black hole collector," whom you don't even know who they are or what they have, even that remote improbability becomes impossible.

 

No, no, no, no, no, a thousand times no. No matter how outrageous the offer, it's not improbable, it's impossible. I recall a conversation at dinner at last year's NYCC where someone at the table said that he would never sell a particular cover (worth about $25k) since it was the cover to the first comic he could recall reading and that got him hooked on comics. And when asked if he received an offer of $1million on it, he replied in seriousness he still would not sell, no matter how much money was offered. Sorry, such people and views do in fact exist.

 

For the benefit of readers and my own sanity, this is my last post to you on this point.

 

Sorry, man, you'll never make me believe it. All that tells me is that $1 Million wasn't his price. Maybe it was $10M, or $20M. But he has one. I've seen and heard too many tales from people who got a piece from some who "absolutely will never sell this." They met their "price." However ridiculous it is. People say all kinds of things they might think they mean in the moment. I believe that YOU believe those people, who say "I'll absolutely never sell this at ANY price." But that is only because they don't believe anyone would be crazy enough to offer the price it would take to get them to relent. And 99.99% of the time, they will be correct. But that .01% can and does happen once in a great while. I've seen it. I've heard about it. So, you'll never get me to believe as you choose to.

 

And it just gets away from my point that only in a "black hole collection," where you don't know who they are and what they have, does even that highly remote possibility become an impossibility. And that is how you define a "black hole collection/collector." If you can see the art, a possibility exists, no matter how remote, that you can obtain it (minus my "museum exception"). Only in a true "black hole collection," is that impossible.

[J.Sid]

That's silly. Of course he would sell his John Byrne cover (or whatever) for $10 mil.

 

We're talking about people within the hobby, getting the kind of offers that people within the hobby would realistically make.

 

If someone has a page worth $300 and he turns down $2k for it because he "doesn't sell his stuff," well that sounds like pretty close to a black hole to me.

Edited September 13, 2016 by J.Sid

[Nexus]

So what's the opposite of a black hole collection? Where anything and everything is available, almost as soon as it's acquired?

 

I've got one of these types who's constantly writing me to buy a particular work from an artist I rep. It's not currently for sale, but if it was, and this "collector" was about to buy it, he'd dump it within weeks, if not days. I'd like to advise him that he has my permission to pretend he owns the art...that way, he'll get tired of it soon enough, and then we'll both be free of this nonsense.

[Mr. Machismo]

I consider those who don't sell for even absurd amounts BHCs. I've come across a couple on CAF, who have zero intention of selling anything. But I can certainly appreciate the sentiment Meeley Man and Rick possess. To me, those collectors are something else entirely, and what I typically attribute to "whales."

 

The cabal, that's the next mystery I hope to unravel

 

I've heard of this cabal. What's his username?

Edited September 13, 2016 by Mr. Machismo

[Meeley Man]

So what's the opposite of a black hole collection? Where anything and everything is available, almost as soon as it's acquired?

 

I thought we already had a term for them. It's called a "flipper." Has that changed? Is the term no longer valid for those types?

[Meeley Man]

That's silly. Of course he would sell his John Byrne cover (or whatever) for $10 mil.

 

We're talking about people within the hobby, getting the kind of offers that people within the hobby would realistically make.

 

If someone has a page worth $300 and he turns down $2k for it because he "doesn't sell his stuff," well that sounds like pretty close to a black hole to me.

 

No, we are talking about what makes a "black hole collector/collection." Not "what is a reasonable offer and what isn't." We've already established that no chance at resale is a key component of a "black hole collection." And the only way that resale is not possible, under any conditions or circumstances, is if the person who owns it, keeps it completely out of public view. That piece is now in a "black hole" because there is no way to reach it. Not with a reasonable offer, not with a "crazy money offer." That is what makes it a "black hole collection/collector." The reasonability of what it would take to obtain it, if it is publicly viewable, is ultimately irrelevant. Most might never offer what it might actually take (due to lack of resources to accomplish it, or just not being of the mind to make such offers at all), but not matter how remote the possibility is, if it possible, then it's not a "black hole collection/collector."

[comix4fun]

So what's the opposite of a black hole collection? Where anything and everything is available, almost as soon as it's acquired?

 

I've got one of these types who's constantly writing me to buy a particular work from an artist I rep. It's not currently for sale, but if it was, and this "collector" was about to buy it, he'd dump it within weeks, if not days. I'd like to advise him that he has my permission to pretend he owns the art...that way, he'll get tired of it soon enough, and then we'll both be free of this nonsense.

 

 

 

"revolving door collector"

 

"ADHD collector"

 

"Short attention span syndrome collector"

 

"If I can double it then Imma flip it collector"

[Meeley Man]

So what's the opposite of a black hole collection? Where anything and everything is available, almost as soon as it's acquired?

 

I've got one of these types who's constantly writing me to buy a particular work from an artist I rep. It's not currently for sale, but if it was, and this "collector" was about to buy it, he'd dump it within weeks, if not days. I'd like to advise him that he has my permission to pretend he owns the art...that way, he'll get tired of it soon enough, and then we'll both be free of this nonsense.

 

 

 

"revolving door collector"

 

"ADHD collector"

 

"Short attention span syndrome collector"

 

"If I can double it then Imma flip it collector"

 

I think the first one is the best title and gets my vote.

[Nexus]

So what's the opposite of a black hole collection? Where anything and everything is available, almost as soon as it's acquired?

 

I've got one of these types who's constantly writing me to buy a particular work from an artist I rep. It's not currently for sale, but if it was, and this "collector" was about to buy it, he'd dump it within weeks, if not days. I'd like to advise him that he has my permission to pretend he owns the art...that way, he'll get tired of it soon enough, and then we'll both be free of this nonsense.

 

 

 

"revolving door collector"

 

"ADHD collector"

 

"Short attention span syndrome collector"

 

"If I can double it then Imma flip it collector"

 

Heheh...top two are mine. I have another one: Renter.

 

So yeah, I should clarify that I don't mean flipper. Not the same, because not buying for profit. Just flakey and can't hold onto anything.

 

[comix4fun]

So what's the opposite of a black hole collection? Where anything and everything is available, almost as soon as it's acquired?

 

I've got one of these types who's constantly writing me to buy a particular work from an artist I rep. It's not currently for sale, but if it was, and this "collector" was about to buy it, he'd dump it within weeks, if not days. I'd like to advise him that he has my permission to pretend he owns the art...that way, he'll get tired of it soon enough, and then we'll both be free of this nonsense.

 

 

 

"revolving door collector"

 

"ADHD collector"

 

"Short attention span syndrome collector"

 

"If I can double it then Imma flip it collector"

 

Heheh...top two are mine. I have another one: Renter.

 

So yeah, I should clarify that I don't mean flipper. Not the same, because not buying for profit. Just flakey and can't hold onto anything.

 

 

There's another. "Destroyer Of All Comic Art Markets".

 

That's when a guy decides he's got to have a bunch of pieces by a certain artist and bids up everything at auction and makes a bunch of wildly high offers for his work in private collections over the course of time, and moves the needle upwards for prices across the board only to decide that he's bored and dumps everything at a loss, taking that artist's market down with his level of interest.

[JadeGiant]

Unless we are talking about some kind of museum thing, then that isn't true. Everything and everyone has their price. It's just a matter of meeting it. You may not want to, considering it too much to pay. Or you might not be able to, if you are of more meager financial means. But if you offer then the "right" amount, they will cave. You just have to be willing to go to any financial length to make that happen. Most people don't. That is why the piece seem "inescapable."

 

This is a rather broad statement. Sorry, but just because you can see it, doesn't mean that for the right price, it can be obtained.

 

Actually, it does. Whether you are willing or able to MEET the price it would take, well, that a whole other kettle of fish.

 

Again, sorry, no. Maybe that might seem like a good theory but it doesn't reflect reality. I can think of a bunch of collectors with varying levels of collections (smaller collections up to BSDs), and they each have pieces that are "unobtainable" at ANY price (often because they are tied to strong nostalgic feelings).

 

Even in my own collection, there are pieces that literally no amount of money could make me part with them. It has nothing to do with their value and everything to do with factors like nostalgia, the years of effort it took to obtain a piece and/or the years of regret I'd have if I ever let the piece go.

 

If the offer was outrageous enough, they will sell. Again, it may be a price that no sane person would think could ever be made. To obtain the piece, would require meeting a ridiculous amount few people even had access to, much less would actually offer. But it could be done. It may be IMPROBABLE, but not IMPOSSIBLE. But with a "black hole collector," whom you don't even know who they are or what they have, even that remote improbability becomes impossible.

 

No, no, no, no, no, a thousand times no. No matter how outrageous the offer, it's not improbable, it's impossible. I recall a conversation at dinner at last year's NYCC where someone at the table said that he would never sell a particular cover (worth about $25k) since it was the cover to the first comic he could recall reading and that got him hooked on comics. And when asked if he received an offer of $1million on it, he replied in seriousness he still would not sell, no matter how much money was offered. Sorry, such people and views do in fact exist.

 

For the benefit of readers and my own sanity, this is my last post to you on this point.

 

Sorry, man, you'll never make me believe it. All that tells me is that $1 Million wasn't his price. Maybe it was $10M, or $20M. But he has one. I've seen and heard too many tales from people who got a piece from some who "absolutely will never sell this." They met their "price." However ridiculous it is. People say all kinds of things they might think they mean in the moment. I believe that YOU believe those people, who say "I'll absolutely never sell this at ANY price." But that is only because they don't believe anyone would be crazy enough to offer the price it would take to get them to relent. And 99.99% of the time, they will be correct. But that .01% can and does happen once in a great while. I've seen it. I've heard about it. So, you'll never get me to believe as you choose to.

 

And it just gets away from my point that only in a "black hole collection," where you don't know who they are and what they have, does even that highly remote possibility become an impossibility. And that is how you define a "black hole collection/collector." If you can see the art, a possibility exists, no matter how remote, that you can obtain it (minus my "museum exception"). Only in a true "black hole collection," is that impossible.

 

this is bordering on the absurd and you are missing the point. Of course if you could offer world peace to someone in return for art, they would do it. If their family was held ransom, they would do it. We aren't talking about scenarios that would never play out. Time to insert the reasonability clause here for the question at hand.