Marvel has lost its way

[Ryan.]

Middle men don't profit off of the end consumer?

[herc2000]

If everyone goes digital, that's pretty much the end of comic shops then?

 

Comic shops in the traditional sense.

 

And if that is the case then... Honestly... who cares?

 

I care, I think the shop owners care as well :-(

[herc2000]

 

"Middle men don't profit off of the end consumer?"

 

Course they do, but they don't make much per issue, only because of the quantity that adds their profit up.

 

Usually as well, the middle men are hard working people like most of us on here, just trying to make a living. Not some multimillion dollar company like Disney and Warner who are ruled by greed.

[Davenport]

There's a difference between being a fan and a collector.

Exactly.

And it's silly (in my mind) to think "comic book collector" doesn't extend to digital.

 

Someone who collects a wide variety of digital-offerings could possibly be more involved with the artform than, say, someone heavily invested in CGC'd comics.

 

Right? Just think of iPads and Androids as Slabs with zoom-in features and viewable pages..

[aerischan]

How many digital comics does one get for $40?

If buying, 10-40 depending on sales. Probably more if there are sales on collected volumes.

 

Marvel Unlimited? A ton. I got the annual subscription for $70 and within the first month, I felt I already received my money's worth after reading Daredevil runs from Miller, Bendis and Waid; Brubaker's entire Captain America run (+Winter Soldier); and the Black Widow runs by Liu/Acuna and Edmonson/Noto. And there's still plenty more to read and months left in my subscription. I think I'll start with early issues of X-Men next.

 

Marvel Unlimited actually got me buying HCs and TPBs (brand new) for select runs I deemed worthy of precious shelf space. Also subcribed to Waid's current Black Widow run in print. When you think about it, my purchasing habits are probably better for the publisher than someone who eschews all moderns and only buys CGC-graded GA/SA comic books. For the publishers, I'm ongoing/continuous revenue.

 

I ended up buying a bunch of Brubaker's stuff and Monstress by Liu from Image in both digital (DRM-free, hurray!) and print (HCs and TPBs), too. The stuff I bought, I never plan on selling. The reason I bought them in the first place is because I really enjoyed them and plan on re-reading.

 

Mind, I had to give away practically all my books when we migrated from the Philippines to the US. Hence, why I find value with having and being able to keep digital copies.

 

Also, I've noticed LCS's with digital stores (Comixology's) on their websites and I think the LCS receives a commission when purchasing digital comics from there.

[Prince Namor]

The digital market is not for comic collectors, it's more for part time enthusiasts, who are not that into it, maybe they're younger and money is of no importance, after all, I grew up being taught every penny counts!

 

That's nonsense. A similar reverse argument can be easily made along the lines of: "The market for collectibles comics is not for comic collectors, it's more for part time dealers who are not that into it, maybe they're older and money is everything they think about; after all, they grew up being taught that every penny counts!"

 

Whether you read your comics in physical or digital format is irrelevant. My interest is to know that people are reading comics. If what Chuck Gower stated is true: there is little overlap between the physical and digital clientele, then so long as new or more people read through the digital mean, it's a check on the positive column.

 

I find it hard to take that you would place me in the "non-comic collectors" just b/c I have multiple digital subscription. I read comics constantly, I explore new genres and comics from new countries on a regular basis. Some of these are only available digitally (from a purely dollar-sense). I love that the digital world is making more material available. In an environment where we won't all read the same issue of ASM, having a cheap way to distribute the content being created is indispensable for the hobby to continue to thrive, to give people voices beyond small press publishers who are struggling, to allow online collaboration and create a marketplace for writers and artists to find each other, for artists in countries where comics are not traditional to broadcast their craft, digital comics are for comic collector / aficionado / enthusiast. Who the hell needs to have bought a print version of a comic to be officially crowned?

 

Totally agree +100

 

If not for readers this hobby wouldn't exist in the first place, because originally the love of the story and characters is what got people into comics in the first place. Digital Readers ARE fans of comic books, they love to READ them, which is what they were and are made for.

 

It's only when the hobby becomes overly obsessed with the 'collectibility' that it falters and loses it's way

 

The destruction of the newsstand over the last 20 years and the rise of the comic as a collectors item, coincides pretty clearly with it's overall decline in sales, whereas, anytime there are new and exciting ideas (writing and art) coming into comics, sales begin to grow.

 

Digital IS the newsstand of a new generation of readers. We can't fear it, we have to see it as something that helps us grow and leads to a percentage of people who'll eventually want to own the originals.

[lou_fine]

Say a set of Green Lantern 52's 1-12 cost me $40, I had fun with them, but now I'm going to pass them on to another, so they can get some enjoyment out of it, even if I sell them at a loss and get $20, I'm still getting $20 back of my original investment of $40 which is better than nothing, as in the case with digital.

 

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Physical Comics $40, if you don't want them anymore, sell it, yeah it's a loss in this case, but still $20 back, so I'm $20 out as opposed to digitals $40.

 

 

And don't forget that you can then use this $20 loss to offset any capital gains which you might have from selling off some of your winners.

 

So, you've got reading enjoyment, loss reduction, plus a tax write-off to boot. Why, what more can you ask for?

[Davenport]

Digital IS the newsstand of a new generation of readers. We can't fear it, we have to see it as something that helps us grow and leads to a percentage of people who'll eventually want to own the originals.

Ironically, with modern, Digital may be "the original". The 'director's cut', so to speak. How it was 'intended'.

 

Transfer to a paper-medium might result in loss of line, color-shifts, muted effects, diminished textures and so forth. Lost in transference.

[Buzzetta]

If everyone goes digital, that's pretty much the end of comic shops then?

 

Comic shops in the traditional sense.

 

And if that is the case then... Honestly... who cares?

 

I care, I think the shop owners care as well :-(

 

Please comment on everything else I said in the same response after this line instead of editing it in a way to portray yourself as a white knight for your cause.

[aerischan]

I have read many times that millennials as a whole do not collect things or value possessions, they prefer to remain mobile, and who can blame them? The American dream opportunities are increasingly disappearing.

Rent in my area is now $2000 for a 600 sq ft studio and most would need a roommate to be able to afford even that. Not really much space for collectibles.

[Number 6]

I tried to give digital comics a go a few years ago but it just didn't do it for me.

 

Comixology was offering something like 100 free digital comics, I had a tablet so figured I'd try it out. I love reading Back Issue magazine so I thought I could purchase the digital copy, save some money and not have to worry about storing the physical magazines. Since I tend to lean more towards vintage material, I thought it might be a cost-saving way to keep up on moderns.

 

I downloaded a bunch of those free comics but honestly I think I only looked at a couple of them once or twice but that was it. Never even downloaded a single issue of Back Issue.

 

Don't get me wrong: I see the appeal of digital. I read information digitally when I'm doing research or something of that nature. But when it comes to pleasure reading? I'm hooked on having the physical comic or book in hand. So when it comes to moderns, with a couple of exceptions, I just wait until the trade arrives at the library.

 

Incidentally, all those "free" digital comics disappeared after a year. Which is fine, I didn't pay anything for them. But it highlights another concern I have about going all-digital: what constitutes digital ownership?

 

I know proponents of digital are supremely confident that they truly own everything digital that they've paid for. But at my work - the library - there's been a lot of discussion about the role that digital content should play. There's a number of benefits, but the question of digital ownership is always brought up as one of the potential drawbacks. What happens if a creator, publisher, or distributor suddenly decides that, for whatever reason, they no longer think you should have that content? Even if you're refunded your money, can it now be replaced with a physical copy? And even so, the idea that something you thought was yours can suddenly be yanked away is a bit disconcerting.

 

On the one hand, it would be nice to be freed from the burden up unwanted physical reading copies, but on the other, at least it's my choice whether I keep them or get rid of them.

 

 

Digital IS the newsstand of a new generation of readers. We can't fear it, we have to see it as something that helps us grow and leads to a percentage of people who'll eventually want to own the originals.

Ironically, with modern, Digital may be "the original". The 'director's cut', so to speak. How it was 'intended'.

 

Transfer to a paper-medium might result in loss of line, color-shifts, muted effects, diminished textures and so forth. Lost in transference.

 

^

This is an interesting point I hadn't considered.

 

With so much of the comic art being produced digitally, reading it digitally is probably closer to the way it was intended to be read.

 

Perhaps that's an indication that the current comic medium has passed my by, as I prefer the traditional way comics were produced.

[aerischan]

Incidentally, all those "free" digital comics disappeared after a year. Which is fine, I didn't pay anything for them. But it highlights another concern I have about going all-digital: what constitutes digital ownership?

 

I know proponents of digital are supremely confident that they truly own everything digital that they've paid for. But at my work - the library - there's been a lot of discussion about the role that digital content should play. There's a number of benefits, but the question of digital ownership is always brought up as one of the potential drawbacks. What happens if a creator, publisher, or distributor suddenly decides that, for whatever reason, they no longer think you should have that content? Even if you're refunded your money, can now it be replaced with a physical copy? And even so, the idea that something you thought was yours can suddenly be yanked away is a bit disconcerting.

This is a major concern for me as well. I never buy digital unless it's DRM-free (e.g. Image Comics, IDW, etc) or there's a method to *ahem* disinfect my purchase. Otherwise, I'd only buy if cost is something I'm willing to spend on a rental.

[Buzzetta]

As Chuck said, (and my add-on) digital is coming regardless of whether or not the 30-40 year olds support it.

[SuperZar]

As an 'old-timer' returning to the hobby after 30+ years, some might find it surprising that I purchase and read comics online, although my main focus has been re-collecting the comics I had as a youngster in the 70s ... heck I even drop in the LCS every week to pick up some moderns. Interestingly enough, I'd say 80-90% are DC titles - it use to be the other way around. So maybe there is something to be said about Marvel losing its way .

 

As far as the online comics goes, I'm having a WONDERFUL time reading up on all the original Gold/Silver Age classics. I'm now seeing how many characters developed over the years in ways I had no idea! After all, when I was reading in the 70s it was just a small window in time. These are comics runs I will never be able to afford to purchase and hold in my hand. These virtual comics are a compliment - not a replacement for my own paper books.

 

I always purchase them on sale for between $0.50 to $0.99 and typically fall asleep reading them on my mini tablet at bedtime. I feel I'm getting good entertainment value for the $.

[dupont2005]

No of course not, but take into account the enjoyment they gave you as well.

 

Say a set of Green Lantern 52's 1-12 cost me $40, I had fun with them, but now I'm going to pass them on to another, so they can get some enjoyment out of it, even if I sell them at a loss and get $20, I'm still getting $20 back of my original investment of $40 which is better than nothing, as in the case with digital.

 

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Physical Comics $40, if you don't want them anymore, sell it, yeah it's a loss in this case, but still $20 back, so I'm $20 out as opposed to digitals $40.

 

And you can keep new comics in good condition without bags and boards, look at the pedigree collections, they never had bags and boards as far I know.

you can get them digitally for a buck a few months after they come out, so it would cost $12, assuming you couldn't get them in a digital trade on sale shortly after. And assuming it's not on Comixology Unlimited or some other streaming service, or a discount program like Humble Bundle, in which case it might just be a dollar.

 

Also assuming you can sell them for $20 when the time comes, and not $6. A lot of my back issues end up going for a dollar, fifty cents, or bulk rate, a nickel or dime each, when I let them go. The loss is almost complete, and doesn't recover the cost of print over digital, or even the bag and board and longbox most times. Also the storage space can be a hassle.

 

Sure, the pedigree collections are in okay condition for GA, but not by modern standards. And for comics that sold a million copies, how many pedigrees are there? What's the average grade, 8.5? Which modern comic is worth more than a quarter in 8.5?

 

It's just flat out more economical to read digitally. Or through TPB if you buy those used or on clearance, which is something else I do.

 

If you like floppies, fine, that's awesome. But unless you're buying them out of the bargain bin, there's no way you're not losing more money than if you had read them through another format. The expense has gotten to the point that the industry guilt trips consumers into buying that format to "support the industry" or so their favorite title doesn't get cancelled. That's not what thriving markets do.

[Buzzetta]

No of course not, but take into account the enjoyment they gave you as well.

 

Say a set of Green Lantern 52's 1-12 cost me $40, I had fun with them, but now I'm going to pass them on to another, so they can get some enjoyment out of it, even if I sell them at a loss and get $20, I'm still getting $20 back of my original investment of $40 which is better than nothing, as in the case with digital.

 

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Physical Comics $40, if you don't want them anymore, sell it, yeah it's a loss in this case, but still $20 back, so I'm $20 out as opposed to digitals $40.

 

And you can keep new comics in good condition without bags and boards, look at the pedigree collections, they never had bags and boards as far I know.

you can get them digitally for a buck a few months after they come out, so it would cost $12, assuming you couldn't get them in a digital trade on sale shortly after. And assuming it's not on Comixology Unlimited or some other streaming service, or a discount program like Humble Bundle, in which case it might just be a dollar.

 

Also assuming you can sell them for $20 when the time comes, and not $6. A lot of my back issues end up going for a dollar, fifty cents, or bulk rate, a nickel or dime each, when I let them go. The loss is almost complete, and doesn't recover the cost of print over digital, or even the bag and board and longbox most times. Also the storage space can be a hassle.

 

Sure, the pedigree collections are in okay condition for GA, but not by modern standards. And for comics that sold a million copies, how many pedigrees are there? What's the average grade, 8.5? Which modern comic is worth more than a quarter in 8.5?

 

It's just flat out more economical to read digitally. Or through TPB if you buy those used or on clearance, which is something else I do.

 

If you like floppies, fine, that's awesome. But unless you're buying them out of the bargain bin, there's no way you're not losing more money than if you had read them through another format. The expense has gotten to the point that the industry guilt trips consumers into buying that format to "support the industry" or so their favorite title doesn't get cancelled. That's not what thriving markets do.

 

+1

[dupont2005]

No of course not, but take into account the enjoyment they gave you as well.

 

Say a set of Green Lantern 52's 1-12 cost me $40, I had fun with them, but now I'm going to pass them on to another, so they can get some enjoyment out of it, even if I sell them at a loss and get $20, I'm still getting $20 back of my original investment of $40 which is better than nothing, as in the case with digital.

 

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Physical Comics $40, if you don't want them anymore, sell it, yeah it's a loss in this case, but still $20 back, so I'm $20 out as opposed to digitals $40.

 

And you can keep new comics in good condition without bags and boards, look at the pedigree collections, they never had bags and boards as far I know.

 

How many digital comics does one get for $40?

for $32 I bought four humble bundles and got a years subscription to MAD magazine and 68 trades/graphic novels, 74 single issues of Boom! Comics, and 35 back issues of MAD (a few of them are TPB's).

 

The Archie Comics app gave me over 250 free Archie comics including trades and thick digests.

 

So if you count each trade (and some of them are very big) as a single issue, I got 439 issues for $32, averaging 7 cents per issue.

[SuperZar]

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Not true. All the comics I've purchased online are still there for my enjoyment. They are neatly organized in 'collections' to be read over and over. I let other members of my family read them too, so they also get 'passed around' for others to enjoy.

 

Also, when you go to the movies and pay $10+ to see Batman vs Superman, you could also say at then end of the show 'that's it, gone'. You don't have anything to hold in your hand when you walk out, but you still went and had a good time!

[Doktor]

No of course not, but take into account the enjoyment they gave you as well.

 

Say a set of Green Lantern 52's 1-12 cost me $40, I had fun with them, but now I'm going to pass them on to another, so they can get some enjoyment out of it, even if I sell them at a loss and get $20, I'm still getting $20 back of my original investment of $40 which is better than nothing, as in the case with digital.

 

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Physical Comics $40, if you don't want them anymore, sell it, yeah it's a loss in this case, but still $20 back, so I'm $20 out as opposed to digitals $40.

 

And you can keep new comics in good condition without bags and boards, look at the pedigree collections, they never had bags and boards as far I know.

you can get them digitally for a buck a few months after they come out, so it would cost $12, assuming you couldn't get them in a digital trade on sale shortly after. And assuming it's not on Comixology Unlimited or some other streaming service, or a discount program like Humble Bundle, in which case it might just be a dollar.

 

Also assuming you can sell them for $20 when the time comes, and not $6. A lot of my back issues end up going for a dollar, fifty cents, or bulk rate, a nickel or dime each, when I let them go. The loss is almost complete, and doesn't recover the cost of print over digital, or even the bag and board and longbox most times. Also the storage space can be a hassle.

 

Sure, the pedigree collections are in okay condition for GA, but not by modern standards. And for comics that sold a million copies, how many pedigrees are there? What's the average grade, 8.5? Which modern comic is worth more than a quarter in 8.5?

 

It's just flat out more economical to read digitally. Or through TPB if you buy those used or on clearance, which is something else I do.

 

If you like floppies, fine, that's awesome. But unless you're buying them out of the bargain bin, there's no way you're not losing more money than if you had read them through another format. The expense has gotten to the point that the industry guilt trips consumers into buying that format to "support the industry" or so their favorite title doesn't get cancelled. That's not what thriving markets do.

 

In fairness, if you want to say "well, wait a few months & get them for $1/issue digital", the same could be said on the physical copies based on your argument about attempting to recoup initial investment & fail, and you'll actually have a physical object that you can do whatever you want with. All without any risk of the content provider ever deciding that the digital distributor you purchased through (Comixology or something) is not someone they want to deal with anymore, or decides to outsource their digital distribution, or go exclusive with a different new distributor, and suddenly all the copies you bought (and it's NOT a purchase, it's essentially an indefinite "rental/lease" on the material that can be revoked at any time by the IP owner) vanish too.

 

Digital still has too many unknowns. And I'll compare it to iTunes. because that's really what it is. Now this is something that hasn't happened as much in recent years, but only a few years ago, movies that I bought from iTunes suddenly vanished from my "purchased" history around the time I was doing a format on my digital storage & figured I'd just re-download them. Well, thankfully I looked and they weren't there. I asked Apple about it and their response was that their distribution contract with the rights holder expired & hadn't been renewed. So if I didn't have copies of them stored locally, I was essentially screwed. Thankfully, I just backed those few movies up and it didn't impact me, but I guarantee a lot of other people got screwed in this deal.

 

And this is something that can very easily happen with digital comics as well. If you don't store them offline or locally, you can very easily lose access because you're never purchasing a THING. You're "leasing" access to data for an indefinite period of time that someone else controls. Most people don't realize that. And it gets very very cloudy as to what recourse someone has (currently, basically none) if they lose access to the "leased" material.

 

People inherently realize that going to see a movie in the theater or renting a movie doesn't provide them with ownership of that material the way that purchasing the BluRay or DVD does. They understand that going to see a band live or listening to even subscription radio doesn't allow them uncontrolled access to that music the way that a CD did. However, the switch over to digital has a lot of people convinced that it's no different than the hangover from VHS to DVD was or the way cassette to CD did. They don't understand that they don't have the same uncontrolled access to the material. They don't understand the paradigm shift when it comes to "ownership" with digital. Because there's no "thing" involved.

[rjrjr]

No of course not, but take into account the enjoyment they gave you as well.

 

Say a set of Green Lantern 52's 1-12 cost me $40, I had fun with them, but now I'm going to pass them on to another, so they can get some enjoyment out of it, even if I sell them at a loss and get $20, I'm still getting $20 back of my original investment of $40 which is better than nothing, as in the case with digital.

 

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Physical Comics $40, if you don't want them anymore, sell it, yeah it's a loss in this case, but still $20 back, so I'm $20 out as opposed to digitals $40.

 

And you can keep new comics in good condition without bags and boards, look at the pedigree collections, they never had bags and boards as far I know.

 

How many digital comics does one get for $40?

 

$0 worth of sellable comics?