Newsstand Versions 1 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

8 minutes ago, Martin Sinescu said:

That one post in particular or just the site in general? Just curious as I don't want to waste precious weekend minutes if it'a all misinformation in that article.

That site in general. 

[HarrisonJohn]

In the 80's/ early 90's my local comic store always sold a mix of direct and newsstand. That months new comics were direct, but their back issues were always a mix. I don't know if they were buying collections from people with newsstands often, or if they were maybe buying extra stock off someone? So I always had a mix.

Edited June 2, 2018 by HarrisonJohn

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Could everybody please stop linking to that terrible blog?

Times 10,000,002.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, HarrisonJohn said:

In the 80's/ early 90's my local comic store always sold a mix of direct and newsstand. That months new comics were direct, but their back issues were always a mix. I don't know if they were buying collections from people with newsstands often, or if they were maybe buying extra stock off someone? So I always had a mix.

I think, and your comment tends to confirm it, that at least a few comic shops had newsstand accounts, too. Because of the lag time between Direct and newsstand, that meant that they'd get in books that might have sold out as Direct versions. I suspect that's the case.

Edited June 2, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Joosh]

9 hours ago, revat said:

it proves the scarcity of newsstand books ON THE MARKET, which is not the same thing as the scarcity of total books.  But it is probably close enough for the purpose saying generally that they're quite rare to find for sale.  But for the purpose of trying to establish some type of purported ratio, it makes it even more difficult to do so.  I don't think I'm arguing with you, just trying to provide another reason why people shouldn't really guess or attribute any type of ratio to the rarity of newsstands vs directs, other than to say something along the effect of 'likely quite rare relatively'.  

Agreed. We can only make an educated guess on relative rarity based on our interpretations of the evidence. I was merely sharing my experience and thoughts having personally searched these books out.

I’m happy most sellers don’t know the difference as it allows me to collect what I like with very little competition. 

[Martin Sinescu]

It seems odd that an LCS would also have a newsstand account and I don't know if that would even be allowed. I certainly don't remember any of the ones I visited ever having current issues in newsstand versions.The only other possibility I can think of is if a shop owner had an agreement with the local newsstand vendor to buy unsold back issues for above cost, but below full retail so the newsstand could make a little more than just recouping their cost by returning them and the LCS would still have some breathing room to make a profit. All conjecture on my part, of course.

Newsstand back issues could easily be explained as just having come from a collector trading out copies they'd read to the LCS for credit towards new books or just selling for cash. As Rock mentioned, there was a lag of, IIRC, three weeks until newsstand release which gave everyone another opportunity to grab hot sellout books, so a smart LCS owner would probably take advantage of that as well (which is why I always poo-pooed newsstand copies back in the day because I didn't consider them the legit first releases). Ironic now since I collect newsstand copies.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

It seems odd that an LCS would also have a newsstand account and I don't know if that would even be allowed.

Allowed by whom...? There were no regulations nor regulatory body to allow or disallow such an arrangement; one need merely to have accounts with both a Direct market distributor (and there were many) and an ID distributor. 

[CleverParasite]

to answer the question as to what I consider identifying marks of newsstand editions, see these pics - ASM #364 shows the 30th Anniversary graphic in the lower left corner where barcodes usually are printed.  The Venom: LP #1 shows the classic Spidey "oh, man!" pic in the same location.  But more evident, look at the four Gambit issues: #1, #3, and #4 have basic barcodes, but #2 has a barcode with "DIRECT EDITION" written beside the barcode.  I've been told by all who I asked the question of that graphics, "direct edition" branded codes, and basically anything other than a plain barcode, are signs of issues sold to comic vendors; the issues with only a barcode are newsstand volumes.  Is this accurate?

[Joosh]

CleverParasite, 

You are correct, your Gambit #2 is a direct edition and the other three books are newsstand. 

Another tell that helps: Notice the barcode is actually two separate barcodes. The smaller of the two barcodes is only 2 digits on newsstands. I’ve yet to see where this method fails. There is a lot more to it (like what those codes mean) but this basic knowledge is  a great way to tell quickly.

[valiantman]

5 hours ago, Joosh said:

Another tell that helps: Notice the barcode is actually two separate barcodes. The smaller of the two barcodes is only 2 digits on newsstands. I’ve yet to see where this method fails. There is a lot more to it (like what those codes mean) but this basic knowledge is  a great way to tell quickly.

That's correct - picture a barcode as two sections:

||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||| = direct edition

||||||||||||||||||||| |||| = newsstand

Or, just look at the numbers and ignore the left section:

01234567890 12345 = direct edition  (10 numbers, then 5 numbers)

01234567890 12 = newstand (10 numbers, then 2 numbers)

Edited June 5, 2018 by valiantman

[Lazyboy]

6 hours ago, Joosh said:

Another tell that helps: Notice the barcode is actually two separate barcodes. The smaller of the two barcodes is only 2 digits on newsstands. I’ve yet to see where this method fails. There is a lot more to it (like what those codes mean) but this basic knowledge is  a great way to tell quickly.

I wouldn't be surprised if you did at some point.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/433757-alpha-flight-direct-upcs-and-other-oddities/

 

[Joosh]

9 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I wouldn't be surprised if you did at some point.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/433757-alpha-flight-direct-upcs-and-other-oddities/

 

Soooo.... yeah. That’s a thing. Let’s say copper age books may not apply to differentiation tactics, because someone at Marvel screwed up on Alpha Flight and Dr Strange in the 80’s. The 80’s were a strange time.

[Jaydee]

@valiantman you stated 

Books like Amazing Spider-man #300 tend to be about 12-to-1 direct-vs-newsstand available on Ebay. The newsstand grades for ASM 300 generally average 1.0 lower than the direct grades, for what is CGC graded and available for sale.   

i was wondering why.  Do they grade it harder?

. My 300 was graded a 9.4 in 2005.  I am deslabbing pressing and sending in.  I honestly think it will ppossible get a 9.6 or even dare I say 9.8.  I hope.  

i blew 5.00 on graders notes to see specifically what to do.  

i figure it is now 30 years old they may be willing to give better grades on ASM 300

[valiantman]

12 hours ago, Jaydee said:

@valiantman you stated 

Books like Amazing Spider-man #300 tend to be about 12-to-1 direct-vs-newsstand available on Ebay. The newsstand grades for ASM 300 generally average 1.0 lower than the direct grades, for what is CGC graded and available for sale.   

i was wondering why.  Do they grade it harder?

There could be a variety of factors for why the average grade is lower, but the most likely ones are:

ASM #300 newsstand books were purchased in non-comic shops like grocery stores or gas stations (so they may have been more damaged from the beginning), and ASM #300 newsstand books are more likely submitted by regular collectors (with varying reading and handling and storage methods), while direct editions could be submitted (in bulk) by retailers (who should know how to protect inventory).

Edited August 17, 2018 by valiantman

[Jaydee]

8 minutes ago, valiantman said:

There could be a variety of factors for why the average grade is lower, but the most likely ones are:

ASM #300 newsstand books were purchased in non-comic shops like grocery stores or gas stations, and ASM #300 newsstand books are more likely submitted by regular collectors (with varying storage methods), while direct editions could be submitted (in bulk) by retailers (who should know how to protect inventory).

 

Agreed I bought mine at Hudson News at a 7-11/ gas station in NY on my way to Niagara for a Hockey Tournament .   I will give it a Shot.  Also A Spawn 9 (I had no Idea it mattered)  I Was thinking that the grader takes that into account when grading.  ill put mine up against a few 9.8's I've seen.  Even my Wrap is better.  Wish me luck!

Edited August 17, 2018 by Jaydee

[valiantman]

Just now, Jaydee said:

Agreed I bought mine at Hudson News at a 7-11/ gas station in NY on my way to Niagara for a Hockey Tournament .   I will give it a Shot.  Also A Spawn 9 (I had no Idea it mattered) 

Newsstands don't matter to a lot of collectors, and they don't matter to a lot of sellers... so there's an opportunity for newsstand fans to buy these books at direct edition prices (once in a while).  That's good for the buyer, not-so-much for the seller (for now).

[jfur]

Looking specifically at Amazing Spider-Man for a moment .... go search for newsstands between issues 500-700 (700 is a bad example since the print run was huge, you can find them easily), and tell me how many you find compared to the direct copies.  It's definitely less than 5% of print run.  There are some issues I have NEVER laid eyes on, and I've been on the hunt for 3 years (literally search eBay every couple of days for each issue I'm missing) - I'm missing 19 newsstand issues.  It's needle in a haystack.  Newsstands matter to buyers who know the difference, and they matter more in high grade.  This niche market will gain traction with more sellers AND buyers when it's just accepted how rare they actually are - kind of like Direct issues when they first hit the market (hard to find in high grade and distribution was relatively low compared to their newsstand counterpart), or any comic with mark jewellers inserts.  People love rare and always want what others don't have - comic lovers just obsess over rarity.

 

just my 2 cents.

[mr_highgrade]

What newsies are you missing from your Spidey run? 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, jfur said:

Looking specifically at Amazing Spider-Man for a moment .... go search for newsstands between issues 500-700 (700 is a bad example since the print run was huge, you can find them easily), and tell me how many you find compared to the direct copies.  It's definitely less than 5% of print run.

The percentage of newsstand copies vs. Direct copies for sale (which is a valid point) notwithstanding, no one has any way of knowing what percentage of the "print run" the newsstand issues vs. Direct were, because of multiple factors. Foremost, no one has any idea what the print run was, either for the entire print run, or what percentage were Direct copies, and what percentage were newsstand copies, except the publisher, Marvel, and the printer. That, more than any other factor, makes determining further information relating to that number impossible, because the information is neither public, nor is it available.

Next, no one has any idea how much of the print run was of the newsstand vs. the Direct market. Because of the very nature of the newsstand, which allowed returns, we have no idea how many were distributed, how many were sold, and how many were "returned for credit." There are just too many unknown variables involved.

Next, because newsstand vendors kept no stock of back issues, unlike comics specialty stores, we don't know what percentage of unsold Direct copies would have been saved as "back stock", and available for purchase long after the fact, vs. how many newsstands were unsold and returned. The number of Direct copies unsold is almost certainly a number in decent excess of "zero."

Next, because the buyer of newsstand copies tended to be readers who bought single issues, rather than collectors maintaining a collection, and since we don't know how many were sold and how many were not, we have no idea about the actual distribution (and subsequent disposition), of the copies that still exist. Again, because of the nature of newsstand distribution, we have no idea how many "single issue buyers" there were who bought their books, and may (or may not) still have them.

It's theoretically possible that there are tens of thousands of copies, individually held, in the hands of readers/collectors all over the US/North America. 

We just don't know, and have no way of knowing.

4 hours ago, jfur said:

There are some issues I have NEVER laid eyes on, and I've been on the hunt for 3 years (literally search eBay every couple of days for each issue I'm missing) - I'm missing 19 newsstand issues.  It's needle in a haystack.  Newsstands matter to buyers who know the difference, and they matter more in high grade.  This niche market will gain traction with more sellers AND buyers when it's just accepted how rare they actually are - kind of like Direct issues when they first hit the market (hard to find in high grade and distribution was relatively low compared to their newsstand counterpart), or any comic with mark jewellers inserts.  People love rare and always want what others don't have - comic lovers just obsess over rarity.

It's important to note, as many have here over the years, that availability doesn't have much to do with overall scarcity. While few examples may be for sale, that certainly doesn't mean that those items don't exist, somewhere.

A famous example is the 1903-O (among others) Morgan dollar...once considered the rarest date/mint of the set, with estimates as low as 10 examples thought to exist (out of an original mintage of 4.45 million!), tens of thousands of examples were discovered in the US Treasury vaults in 1962-1964, and hundreds of thousands are known to exist now. For 60 years, they had lain, untouched, unknown, until they were discovered by accident. 

Granted, that's not how comics work, but the principle remains the same. What we DO know is that it's unlikely that Marvel printed, as some have incredibly foolishly claimed, a mere several hundred copies of any particular issue, or that the "1:100" number that is thrown around by the ignorant is even remotely applicable. It's patent nonsense. That's NOT how the newsstand EVER worked, and NOT how Marvel ever worked. If there were fewer then 20,000-30,000 newsstand copies printed, that would be very strange. Until Marvel pulled out of the newsstand, starting in 2011, there were still vendors all over the country...including Walmart, Barnes & Noble, and regular newsstand vendors by the hundreds, if not thousands...each receiving multiple copies (10 or more) for sale at each location. 

There were 4500 Walmart stores (all kinds) in the US alone in 2012. In 2011, Barnes & Noble had 705 stores in the US. And that says nothing of the various independent newsstands which still carried comics. Comichron estimates that the newsstand had $25 million in sales for 2013. Where JJM gets that number, he doesn't say, but if we go by an average price of $4.50 at the newsstand for new comics, that's still 5.5 MILLION copies of comics sold at the newsstand that year. ASM has always been a top seller at the newsstand, so even if ASM only accounted for 1% of those sales....keeping in mind that these are all estimates..that's still 2,000-3,000 copies per issue sold at the newsstand, with their wacky publishing schedule. 

And even those numbers are probably reallllly low. With estimates of roughly 70k copies sold in 2011 in the Direct market, it's not totally reasonable to imagine that newsstand sales would be 1%-3% of those numbers. The books still sold. Not great, which is why Marvel pulled out of the market...but they still sold.

[jfur]

Of course no one 'knows' what the percentage of distribution is and there is no definitive way to validate it.  All we have are our assumptions based on information at hand - even settling on "2,000/3,000" per issue sold, we assume some were returned, we assume some were thrown out at the newsstand, and we assume that single issue readers may or may not have just tossed once read.  Either way, the number gets smaller, and smaller, and smaller every variable you toss in.

You make some good arguments, but if every newsstand vendor sold multiple copies of every issue at every chain, we would still have Marvel selling at Newsstands today.  What's theoretically possible isn't always probable.  Absolutely, of course there could be storage full of these things, and thousands of people sitting on them not knowing they even have them, but, they're relatively unavailable at this point in time which makes them rare by definition.  Until they're found and available to the market, they'll remain rare.

Whether it's 1%, 5%, hell, even 10%, doesn't change the fact that they're hard to find - being hard to find supports the argument of a relatively low print run.