SPIDER-MAN 2 from Marvel & Sony (7/5/19) 4 4

[Turtle]

1 minute ago, TwoPiece said:

SPOILERS. Don't feel like tagging this...

Considering that Mysterio defeated all 3 prior "elementals", and Fury (lied) told him to go back on his trip, I don't blame the 16-year old for wanting to have a normal summer for the first time in a few years. Spider-Man has always been about duality, too. He tried the whole "I wanna be an Avenger" and it didn't work. That was what Homecoming was all about. This time, he tried to do the opposite, and it didn't work out. "If you do nothing, and the bad things happen, they happen because of you." So, he knows that he has a responsibility. He thought it was responsible to give EDITH to Mysterio - the 3rd man in his life he thought he could look up to.

Homecoming and Far From Home are the 2 extremes to the duality of Spider-Man and Peter Parker, respectively. I suspect that the 3rd movie will convey to us how he figures out the balance. It reminds me of Zack Snyder's Superman arc. Some people don't like it because he's not the Superman the world has known for 75 years. It was an origin that we needed - something fresh - that paid off (mostly) in Justice League. This trilogy looks headed in the same direction.

There's definitely a duality, but a big part of the character is that Spider-man tends to exist at the expense of Peter's happiness and well-being.  I thought Raimi's Spider-man 2 showed this in spades.  Peter lost his job because of Spider-man.  Peter's grades were slipping because of Spider-man.  Peter repeatedly disappointed Mary Jane because of Spider-man.  Peter's life was in shambles just so Spider-man could do what Peter felt he needed to do.  He even tried to give up being Spider-man and found that it wasn't a sustainable choice for him. 

What has Holland's Peter really given up at the expense of Spider-man?  At the opera house, he left MJ alone, giving Brad an opportunity to swoop in, which ultimately went nowhere for Brad (MJ left).  Anything else?  He gave up his spot at the academic decathlon, but then took it back and went on the trip anyway, but then didn't actually compete, but then the team won anyway.  No real sacrifice there.  He left Liz alone at the homecoming dance to deal with Vulture, but given Vulture's plan, he'd have been caught by Iron Man, which could result in Toomes' conviction, which would prompt Liz and her mom to move anyway.  Again, no real sacrifice. 

He had known Mysterio for what...a matter of a day or two before handing him the keys to the Stark kingdom?  I think that was less "I trust and respect this Mysterio guy" and more "I'm looking for any excuse to ditch these glasses so I can just be a normal kid for a while".  It felt very rushed, very forced and was just another example of Spider-man not demonstrating the responsibility that is paramount to the character for me.

I can't state this enough, I think these Holland Spidey appearances are so entertaining that I can look past this error in the character, which I feel is really saying something when it's such an important aspect of the character.  I've thoroughly enjoyed the Spider-man appearances in the MCU.  Ultimately, I think I like his supporting roles better than his starring ones because I can ignore the lack of responsibility in favor of just mindlessly seeing all the Spider-man action on-screen without being muddled by character context. 

[Turtle]

1 hour ago, Gatsby77 said:

While I hear what you're saying about the "with great power comes great responsibility" trope, I don't see the above as antithetical to the comic book Spidey.

Why?

I remember at least two Avengers issues back in the '80s that featured Spider-Man's desperate attempts to join the team (going so far as trying to break into the Avengers Mansion as a way to prove himself).

Because membership in the Avengers would offer both a steady government paycheck *and* health insurance -- things he didn't have as a freelance photographer for the Bugle.

Pretty sure one of these issues was Avengers # 221.

The point?

Peter bending himself all-out-of-shape just to become an Avenger was an integral (or at least - periodic) part of his character during the 1980s. I can't speak to before or after that decade, though.

 

If I'm not mistaken, this was true even back in his second appearance in ASM #1.  He attempted to join the Fantastic Four (hence their appearance on the cover).  I'm pretty sure the story ends with Spidey leaving dejected after finding out that the Fantastic Four don't take a paycheck for the adventures they go on or any of their super heroics.  Someone correct me if I've got that wrong.  But that is interesting and something I hadn't considered.  Thanks. 

That said, I have often wondered how MCU Peter personally feels about the Sekovia Accords as it seems that the name "Avengers" seemed to be associated with pro-Accords agendas.  It felt a bit like he took Iron Man's side in the Civil War not because he believed in signing the accords, but rather Iron Man was giving him a chance and Peter liked that someone he respected believed in him.  In fact, the way Peter hides his identity seems more in-line with Cap's anti-Accords viewpoint.  The Accords would require Peter to reveal his identity (to SHIELD, at least) and would only be allowed to act when given permission to do so.  Both of these seem counter to the way Spidey tends to operate.  I wonder if Peter would have joined Cap if Cap had only gotten to him first in Civil War. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Turtle
parenthesis

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 minutes ago, Turtle said:

There's definitely a duality, but a big part of the character is that Spider-man tends to exist at the expense of Peter's happiness and well-being.  I thought Raimi's Spider-man 2 showed this in spades.  Peter lost his job because of Spider-man.  Peter's grades were slipping because of Spider-man.  Peter repeatedly disappointed Mary Jane because of Spider-man.  Peter's life was in shambles just so Spider-man could do what Peter felt he needed to do.  He even tried to give up being Spider-man and found that it wasn't a sustainable choice for him. 

What has Holland's Peter really given up at the expense of Spider-man?  At the opera house, he left MJ alone, giving Brad an opportunity to swoop in, which ultimately went nowhere for Brad (MJ left).  Anything else?  He gave up his spot at the academic decathlon, but then took it back and went on the trip anyway, but then didn't actually compete, but then the team won anyway.  No real sacrifice there.  He left Liz alone at the homecoming dance to deal with Vulture, but given Vulture's plan, he'd have been caught by Iron Man, which could result in Toomes' conviction, which would prompt Liz and her mom to move anyway.  Again, no real sacrifice. 

He had known Mysterio for what...a matter of a day or two before handing him the keys to the Stark kingdom?  I think that was less "I trust and respect this Mysterio guy" and more "I'm looking for any excuse to ditch these glasses so I can just be a normal kid for a while".  It felt very rushed, very forced and was just another example of Spider-man not demonstrating the responsibility that is paramount to the character for me.

I can't state this enough, I think these Holland Spidey appearances are so entertaining that I can look past this error in the character, which I feel is really saying something when it's such an important aspect of the character.  I've thoroughly enjoyed the Spider-man appearances in the MCU.  Ultimately, I think I like his supporting roles better than his starring ones because I can ignore the lack of responsibility in favor of just mindlessly seeing all the Spider-man action on-screen without being muddled by character context. 

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry X-Mas...

A lot of your debate points seem to be "if he did this" or "if he didn't do that". Well he did sacrifice time with Liz on the decathlon team, and homecoming prom, to take on Vulture. He made personal sacrifices to be Spider-Man. He made too many and it didn't work out.

Mysterio seemingly was gonna make the ultimate sacrifice to 'kill' the 'fire elemental'. Who's the last guy he knew that did something like that? At first, he tried to embrace EDITH, and made near-deadly mistakes. He was trying to be responsible and 'do the right thing'. He knew a 16-year old kid shouldn't have that responsibility. Spider-Man isn't Iron Man and that was part of the point. EDITH belongs to an Iron Man. Ditching the idea that he's Stark's replacement helps define who he is. That's what the dialogue between he and Happy is all about.

He was also trying to be responsible by keeping his friends, teachers and classmates, all out of danger. "It seems like I'm always putting them in danger". It seemed like that, because he was, by trying too hard to be an Avenger.

We've seen both sides of the coin. I think it's incorrect to say that he isn't - or isn't trying to be - responsible. He's a 16-year old kid. He's learning.

[Kon_Jelly]

46 minutes ago, Turtle said:

If I'm not mistaken, this was true even back in his second appearance in ASM #1.  He attempted to join the Fantastic Four (hence their appearance on the cover.  I'm pretty sure the story ends with Spidey leaving dejected after finding out that the Fantastic Four don't take a paycheck for the adventures they go on or any of their super heroics.  Someone correct me if I've got that wrong.  But that is interesting and something I hadn't considered.  Thanks. 

100% accurate. 

[Turtle]

 

1 hour ago, TwoPiece said:

A lot of your debate points seem to be "if he did this" or "if he didn't do that". Well he did sacrifice time with Liz on the decathlon team, and homecoming prom, to take on Vulture. He made personal sacrifices to be Spider-Man. He made too many and it didn't work out.

I suppose my issue is that none of his sacrifices had any lasting effects that he had any control of.  You say he lost time with Liz, but Peter and Liz were never going to be together.  Once Vulture decided he'd rob Tony Stark, the decision was made for everyone.  At that point, stopping the Vulture or just letting him go would have still ended with Liz moving away.  In the long run, Peter had no agency in the situation, so any choice he made would have the same outcome.  I suppose he could have killed Vulture and Liz would have maybe stayed, but that would also be a conflict of character. 

It also didn't make a bit of difference whether or not Peter was on the Academic Decathlon team despite being "the best on the team".  They won without him, so what did it ultimately matter?  I think we'd feel more of the weight of his responsibility if the team had lost without Peter's participation. 

He left MJ alone with Brad to be Spider-man, but MJ ended up blowing off Brad and following Peter, so again, either Peter stays and bonds with MJ, or he leaves and bonds with MJ.  His sacrifices up until this point don't seem to matter. 

1 hour ago, TwoPiece said:

At first, he tried to embrace EDITH, and made near-deadly mistakes. He was trying to be responsible and 'do the right thing'. He knew a 16-year old kid shouldn't have that responsibility.

You could say something similar about the Stark Suit from Homecoming.  Peter accidently activated insta-kill mode and had very little knowledge or control over his webbing.  Given his super-strength, speed, and an unpredictable suit that he removed the safeguards from, I think he posed a real risk of accidentally killing someone.  He didn't "do the responsible thing" and reject the suit or put the safeguards back in.  In fact, he fought tooth and nail to prove he deserved the suit.  Just another example of him trying to be impressive and not necessarily acting because he feels the need to do the right thing. 

But I'd say you're not wrong.  EDITH is the first time we've seen Peter's responsibility concept really manifest itself in a meaningful way.  He shrugs the responsibility initially and pays dearly for it.  From the looks of the mid-credit scene, he's going to continue to pay for it moving forward.  All I'm saying is that it's strange that it took until Spider-man's 5th movie appearance in the MCU before responsibility really played a role in his character development.

1 hour ago, TwoPiece said:

Ditching the idea that he's Stark's replacement helps define who he is. That's what the dialogue between he and Happy is all about.

Was that the dialogue that was immediately followed up by Happy turning on AC/DC's Back in Black (arguably Tony's signature song) while Peter "put on" a holographic gauntlet while designing a suit similar to when Tony did the exact same thing in Iron Man?  Can you see how the idea of ditching the idea that he's Stark's replacement while providing a heavy callback to him can be tonally confusing?

I get that he's young, he's by himself, and he's learning.  I think for me it's less about his actions and more about his motivations.  Up until EDITH, he doesn't seem motivated by responsibility.  I feel that changed by the end of Far From Home.  I hope they keep responsibility as a defining theme moving forward.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Turtle

[theCapraAegagrus]

30 minutes ago, Turtle said:

I suppose my issue is that none of his sacrifices had any lasting effects that he had any control of.  You say he lost time with Liz, but Peter and Liz were never going to be together.  Once Vulture decided he'd rob Tony Stark, the decision was made for everyone.  At that point, stopping the Vulture or just letting him go would have still ended with Liz moving away.  In the long run, Peter had no agency in the situation, so any choice he made would have the same outcome.  I suppose he could have killed Vulture and Liz would have maybe stayed, but that would also be a conflict of character. 

It also didn't make a bit of difference whether or not Peter was on the Academic Decathlon team despite being "the best on the team".  They won without him, so what did it ultimately matter?  I think we'd feel more of the weight of his responsibility if the team had lost without Peter's participation. 

He left MJ alone with Brad to be Spider-man, but MJ ended up blowing off Brad and following Peter, so again, either Peter stays and bonds with MJ, or he leaves and bonds with MJ.  His sacrifices up until this point don't seem to matter. 

You could say something similar about the Stark Suit from Homecoming.  Peter accidently activated insta-kill mode and had very little knowledge or control over his webbing.  Given his super-strength, speed, and an unpredictable suit that he removed the safeguards from, I think he posed a real risk of accidentally killing someone.  He didn't "do the responsible thing" and reject the suit or put the safeguards back in.  In fact, he fought tooth and nail to prove he deserved the suit.  Just another example of him trying to be impressive and not necessarily acting because he feels the need to do the right thing. 

But I'd say you're not wrong.  EDITH is the first time we've seen Peter's responsibility concept really manifest itself in a meaningful way.  He shrugs the responsibility initially and pays dearly for it.  From the looks of the mid-credit scene, he's going to continue to pay for it moving forward.  All I'm saying is that it's strange that it took until Spider-man's 5th movie appearance in the MCU before responsibility really played a role in his character development.

Was that the dialogue that was immediately followed up by Happy turning on AC/DC's Back in Black (arguably Tony's signature song) while Peter "put on" a holographic gauntlet while designing a suit similar to when Tony did the exact same thing in Iron Man?  Can you see how the idea of ditching the idea that he's Stark's replacement while providing a heavy callback to him can be tonally confusing?

I get that he's young, he's by himself, and he's learning.  I think for me it's less about his actions and more about his motivations.  Up until EDITH, he doesn't seem motivated by responsibility.  I feel that changed by the end of Far From Home.  I hope they keep responsibility as a defining theme moving forward.

Peter wanted to be with Liz, though, and if he didn't sacrifice his opportunities and go after her father his seemingly dream girl could've been his. That's a lasting consequence IMO.

Results aren't everything (hence why "advanced metrics" in sports lead to awful players getting ridiculous contracts). Peter not sticking on the team resulted in them almost dying in the elevator at Washington D.C.

Peter's path to responsibility has been at the core of every movie. Wants to do the 'right thing' and bring Cap in during Civil War. Wants to be an Avenger and take down Vulture to keep dangerous weapons off the streets. Wants to save Doctor Strange and the universe in Infinity War (going against his resolution in Homecoming). Just does hero stuff in Endgame. And, now, wanted to do the 'right thing' with EDITH by handing it over to who looked like the next Iron Man. Then asking for help, clearing his conscience, and fixing the biggest mistake he's made.

Also, Peter's "holographic gauntlet" was him modifying the web-shooters in the Iron Spider suit. And Peter's response to AC/DC shows exactly how/why he isn't Iron Man lol. Of course Happy wants the kid to be like his deceased best friend. Tony did pick him for a reason. He isn't Iron Man - but he's the next genius-level active Avenger.

I think that Marvel's trying to do 2 things, and I also think it's not confusing, if you clearly infer them:

1. Keep Iron Man's legacy alive thru Spider-Man. With tech and connections to Tony Stark.

2. Convey that Parker clearly is not Stark despite a lot of similarities.

It's kinda like confusing Snickers and Milky Way. Similar qualities does not equal the same.

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, Turtle said:

That said, I have often wondered how MCU Peter personally feels about the Sekovia Accords as it seems that the name "Avengers" seemed to be associated with pro-Accords agendas.  It felt a bit like he took Iron Man's side in the Civil War not because he believed in signing the accords, but rather Iron Man was giving him a chance and Peter liked that someone he respected believed in him.  In fact, the way Peter hides his identity seems more in-line with Cap's anti-Accords viewpoint.  The Accords would require Peter to reveal his identity (to SHIELD, at least) and would only be allowed to act when given permission to do so.  Both of these seem counter to the way Spidey tends to operate.  I wonder if Peter would have joined Cap if Cap had only gotten to him first in Civil War. 

Interesting.

In the comics version of Civil War Peter definitely takes Iron Man's pro-registration act side and announces this publicly by revealing his identity to the world on live television.

[Turtle]

12 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Also, Peter's "holographic gauntlet" was him modifying the web-shooters in the Iron Spider suit.

I know...but c'mon.  It's 100% a full-on reference to Tony doing the exact same thing in Iron Man 1.  This scene here:

He designs the gauntlet, then slides his hand in and manipulates the model manually, the same way Peter does. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Turtle said:

I know...but c'mon.  It's 100% a full-on reference to Tony doing the exact same thing in Iron Man 1.  This scene here:

He designs the gauntlet, then slides his hand in and manipulates the model manually, the same way Peter does. 

Yes, and it's awesome. 

[revat]

21 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

2 hours ago, Turtle said:

That said, I have often wondered how MCU Peter personally feels about the Sekovia Accords as it seems that the name "Avengers" seemed to be associated with pro-Accords agendas.  It felt a bit like he took Iron Man's side in the Civil War not because he believed in signing the accords, but rather Iron Man was giving him a chance and Peter liked that someone he respected believed in him.  In fact, the way Peter hides his identity seems more in-line with Cap's anti-Accords viewpoint.  The Accords would require Peter to reveal his identity (to SHIELD, at least) and would only be allowed to act when given permission to do so.  Both of these seem counter to the way Spidey tends to operate.  I wonder if Peter would have joined Cap if Cap had only gotten to him first in Civil War. 

Interesting.

In the comics version of Civil War Peter definitely takes Iron Man's pro-registration act side and announces this publicly by revealing his identity to the world on live television.

and ultimately regrets it. 

At the time Tony was literally employer and Pete was under the Stark charm spell (not so unlike the movie).

But it was used to GREAT effect in the comics, because his secret identity was such a heavily guarded secret prior to that. (and led to one of the worst storylines in comic history when they tried to hide Pete's identity again.)

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 7/6/2019 at 10:31 AM, piper said:

I was pleasantly surprised and amazed on how they translated Mysterio to Film.

I agree. I thought this was the best aspect of the film, and really stayed true to the character and his abilities. Far, far superior to how they treated Venom in ASM #3.

[Bosco685]

 

[Bosco685]

On 7/10/2019 at 11:25 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Slight amendment to this.

From what I read, for the solo Holland films, Sony foots 100% of the bill and gets 100% of the revenue and profits, but Marvel advises on story -- and this goes to brand protection of the character for Disney.

Then Marvel gets 100% of the associated merchandising rights (or, what our buddy Jaydog continually derides as "ancillaries" but often amount to $50-$100 million, or more, per film).

Here's some quotes from a Collider article a few years ago:

Spider-Man: Homecoming is still financed and distributed by Sony Pictures (i.e. they pay for 100% of it), and Sony gets the box office, but Marvel Studios produced the film and served as the “creative lead.” That means Feige and the Marvel Studios braintrust helped pick the director and cast, helped craft the film’s tone and style, and made sure to bring something fresh and new to character that audiences are already very familiar with. 

[...] While Marvel Studios doesn’t get any box office from Spider-Man: Homecoming and its sequel, they do still own the merchandising rights to Spider-Man and thus if Homecoming is a success, that’ll no doubt extend to the toys, underoos, and other Spider-Man products available. Moreover, ensuring Spider-Man: Homecoming is a good movie helps the MCU brand—if folks like this Peter Parker, they’re going to want to see him in Infinity Warand whatever other MCU movies he’s in.

The details of the financial burden for each studio was noted here multiple times. So nothing is new with this information. And it is even stated in the article you posted from /Film.

But with the massive returns the MCU has realized from Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame I think it has earned plenty even before the 100% merchandising take. And even at its low point, the number is massive. Including the overall Disney Merchandising umbrella.

2017: Disney Expects a Merch Windfall From 'Spider-Man'

Quote

Citing NPD Group, the market research firm, the Journal reported U.S. sales of Spider-Man toys declined to $200 million amid the release of “The Amazing Spider-Man” in 2014 from $385 million in 2004 when “Spider-Man 2” was released.

 

While the other studios are playing catch-up when it comes to merchandising, Disney has been doing it for years now and it has paid off. During the past five years, operating income at the consumer products and video game unit increased to $2 billion from $1 billion thanks to blockbuster hits like “Frozen.” More recently it  has been rolling out products tied to the live-action remake of “Beauty and the Beast,” among other films. It currently holds the title of No. 1 licenser, not only with toys, home décor and apparel but also its massive theme parks around the globe.

 

[Bosco685]

And let's not forget that report from a few years back how massive Spider-Man merchandising is compared to other superheroes. Even in 2014.

THR (2014): Which Superhero Earns $1.3 Billion a Year?

[Hawkman]

I'll have to see this a few more times. It took about 3 viewings before I fell in love with Homecoming. On first viewing though, I don't like:

peter-tingle - sounds like he's taking a pizz

the blip - just call it the snap

EDITH "do you want me to make him a target?"

PETER "YES."

C'MON. No teenager would confuse that word.

peter is too gullible, even for a teenager. hopefully they don't continue that with the third movie.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Hawkman

[Martin Sinescu]

Saw it, loved it. Mysterio was great great great and the big illusory battle when they meet in Berlin was top notch -- so clever, great choreography, jaw-dropping effects, it just had me grinning ear-to-ear and I don't think any of the battles in Endgame or Infinity War really gave me that kind of goosebumpy joy. This was a pure thrill-ride. Only minor nitpick, I guess, would be that Mysterio wasn't quite as ominous as I'd hoped. Yeah, the eventual turn was cool, but seeing his face so early on and not altering his voice when domed just made him less mysterious and menacing, even once he was "evil". His final bit of revenge was a great cliff-hanger, too, and JJJ was a nice touch to drive home the threat this will pose ahead. I'd probably place it just behind Winter Soldier and Civil War in my top Marvel movies.

[Hawkman]

1 minute ago, Martin Sinescu said:

Saw it, loved it. Mysterio was great great great and the big illusory battle when they meet in Berlin was top notch -- so clever, great choreography, jaw-dropping effects, it just had me grinning ear-to-ear and I don't think any of the battles in Endgame or Infinity War really gave me that kind of goosebumpy joy. This was a pure thrill-ride. Only minor nitpick, I guess, would be that Mysterio wasn't quite as ominous as I'd hoped. Yeah, the eventual turn was cool, but seeing his face so early on and not altering his voice when domed just made him less mysterious and menacing, even once he was "evil". His final bit of revenge was a great cliff-hanger, too, and JJJ was a nice touch to drive home the threat this will pose ahead. I'd probably place it just behind Winter Soldier and Civil War in my top Marvel movies.

Mysterio was done excellently. Both of the major villains have been top notch so far.

[theCapraAegagrus]

9 hours ago, Hawkman said:

I'll have to see this a few more times. It took about 3 viewings before I fell in love with Homecoming. On first viewing though, I don't like:

peter-tingle - sounds like he's taking a pizz

the blip - just call it the snap

EDITH "do you want me to make him a target?"

PETER "YES."

C'MON. No teenager would confuse that word.

peter is too gullible, even for a teenager. hopefully they don't continue that with the third movie.

Peter-Tingle = Agreed.

The Blip, however, is the return of the snapped characters in 2023. The snap of 2018 is The Decimation.

[chrisco37]

Got my tickets for tonight.  Looking forward to seeing this one.

[Hawkman]

15 hours ago, TwoPiece said:

Peter-Tingle = Agreed.

The Blip, however, is the return of the snapped characters in 2023. The snap of 2018 is The Decimation.

Gotcha. Doesn't really affect my opinion of the movie that much, but I still wish they had a better term for it.