SPIDER-MAN 2 from Marvel & Sony (7/5/19) 4 4

[Bosco685]

 

[Bosco685]

 

[Larryw7]

6 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

I wonder if they did. As with the Oscar-winning team from Into The Spider-Verse working on films and TV shows, this could blend into the larger universe now.

True, but if Sony cuts Spidey from the Marvel universe, there will be huge continuity problems, and audience confusion. I don't think a non Marvel Spidey movie will be anywhere near as successful as the past two, and the franchise will be damaged once again.

 

 

[Bosco685]

5 hours ago, Larryw7 said:

True, but if Sony cuts Spidey from the Marvel universe, there will be huge continuity problems, and audience confusion. I don't think a non Marvel Spidey movie will be anywhere near as successful as the past two, and the franchise will be damaged once again.

 

 

That I could see happening. I agree. Which is why they will probably sort this out.

[TheBook]

Pretty standard negotiation tactics by both sides.

If Sony would of caved in that would be the incorrect move.

If Marvel accepted the same terms that would of been the incorrect move.

Each side is "playing their cards correctly".

They should work out a new deal within a reasonable amount of time with each side moving "slowly" toward an agreement.

Way too much money to not move forward with a new deal.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

I was gonna say: Overreacting.

Their current deal was simply not extended. Sony wants better terms. With no Spider-Man in Phase 4, this won't be a pressing matter for Marvel Studios.

Sony would be stone-cold retarded not to reach a new deal. Marvel does all the work and Sony gets basically all the profits.

[fantastic_four]

This is Iger starting down the long path of devaluing Sony Pictures instead of propping them up so he can eventually buy them.  Iger pushed this, he pulled Disney out, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has Perlmutter pull the same kind of stuff in the comics he pulled with X-Men and Fantastic Four by ramping down or ending the Spider titles.  He may also prevent Hasbro from making future Spider-Man toys from any future Sony-only movies like he did with X-Men for a bit.

I wondered if this was coming when there were no Venom movie toys from Hasbro last year.  Marvel declining to make money on a Sony-only property like that seemed puzzling at the time given how rosy the relationship looked with Tom Holland on-screen twice a year, but this is probably what he's been thinking about for at least a year or two now.  I'm fine with it, let Sony roll the dice for a while until the current executives inevitably get fired.  They didn't do anything wrong here...getting steamrolled by the Mouse is inevitable.

[Bosco685]

15 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

I was gonna say: Overreacting.

Their current deal was simply not extended. Sony wants better terms. With no Spider-Man in Phase 4, this won't be a pressing matter for Marvel Studios.

Sony would be stone-cold retarded not to reach a new deal. Marvel does all the work and Sony gets basically all the profits.

But then Bob Iger was attempting to take it a step further, and wanted Feige involved in all other Spidey properties. To include the ones where the film won an Oscar against a Disney heavy-hitter.

Poke-poke...

[234wallst]

At a high level, my understanding is Marvel Studios provided all the financing to make the prior 2 Spiderman movies, while Sony collected most if not all the box office.  For the current negotiations, I read something about a 50/50 split - does that mean Marvel now wants Sony to pay for half the budget?  This is a large sum of money - easily north of $100m.

MCU can easily explain Spidey missing for a while based on the ending of FFH.  I guarantee Sony will ruin the franchise once again. 

I think the main issue here is Marvel Studios is only going to leverage the best assets (which is primarily just Spiderman) as they need to get the most bang for their buck given the terms.  But Sony thinks it can somewhat replicate the MCU with the huge assortment of characters in the Spidey-verse; and having them all sit on the shelf is a waste.  And this is why Sony/Fox/WB have all failed the superhero business - they think just having the roster and printing movies is going to be a cash cow - but it's really about the quality of the films that will draw a fan base.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

But then Bob Iger was attempting to take it a step further, and wanted Feige involved in all other Spidey properties. To include the ones where the film won an Oscar against a Disney heavy-hitter.

Poke-poke...

Sony should just sell to Disney.

Pretty sure that's what every (sane) fan wants!

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, 234wallst said:

At a high level, my understanding is Marvel Studios provided all the financing to make the prior 2 Spiderman movies, while Sony collected most if not all the box office.  For the current negotiations, I read something about a 50/50 split - does that mean Marvel now wants Sony to pay for half the budget?  This is a large sum of money - easily north of $100m.

MCU can easily explain Spidey missing for a while based on the ending of FFH.  I guarantee Sony will ruin the franchise once again. 

I think the main issue here is Marvel Studios is only going to leverage the best assets (which is primarily just Spiderman) as they need to get the most bang for their buck given the terms.  But Sony thinks it can somewhat replicate the MCU with the huge assortment of characters in the Spidey-verse; and having them all sit on the shelf is a waste.  And this is why Sony/Fox/WB have all failed the superhero business - they think just having the roster and printing movies is going to be a cash cow - but it's really about the quality of the films that will draw a fan base.

NOT correct.

Sony was 100% financially responsible for all Spider-Man solo films. The MCU would produce the films. The MCU was then allowed to use Spider-Man in its films and keep 100% of those profits, with no sharing with Sony.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, 234wallst said:

...I think the main issue here is Marvel Studios is only going to leverage the best assets (which is primarily just Spiderman) as they need to get the most bang for their buck given the terms.  But Sony thinks it can somewhat replicate the MCU with the huge assortment of characters in the Spidey-verse; and having them all sit on the shelf is a waste.  And this is why Sony/Fox/WB have all failed the superhero business - they think just having the roster and printing movies is going to be a cash cow - but it's really about the quality of the films that will draw a fan base.

Your entire post is pretty much spot-on, except for this - depending on whether you're actually damning Warner Bros, or Worlds of DC itself.

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Sony should just sell to Disney.

Pretty sure that's what every (sane) fan wants!

Seeing all the properties together, like in the comic books, would be fantastic.

Disney watering down stories to make everything PG family-neutral along with altering character details to fit that mold - not so much.

[fantastic_four]

18 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

But then Bob Iger was attempting to take it a step further, and wanted Feige involved in all other Spidey properties. To include the ones where the film won an Oscar against a Disney heavy-hitter.

Which is what made the Sony exec's statement to Deadline all the more ridiculous--he was claiming the main reason for Disney pulling Feige out is because he's too busy with X-Men and Fantastic Four.  So that's why they wanted him to have control over Venom and the rest of the Spider-cast, too, because he's too busy?    Nice try, bonehead.  

[Buzzetta]

13 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

NOT correct.

Sony was 100% financially responsible for all Spider-Man solo films. The MCU would produce the films. The MCU was then allowed to use Spider-Man in its films and keep 100% of those profits, with no sharing with Sony.

Correct.  Which is why, if even Sony Spider-man does not make as much as Disney-Sony Spider-man, Sony comes out ahead by taking the Holland iteration and going out on their own. 

You posted the numbers awhile ago where each film including advertising cost around $350 million and $450 million in production, advertising, and promotion.  If profit off the last one is $600 million on Far From Home then Sony has a big decision to make.  They assume the next one will make around $500-$600 million in profit to which they could split that profit off of a new deal with Disney at $250-$300 million to each studio... 

OR... they walk away from Disney and the film "at worst" only makes $400 million in profit of which they keep all of it. 

 

As much as I would like to see Spider-man in the MCU, it does not matter anymore if he is in the MCU.  Most movie goers do not follow up on the contractual side of things.  Sony is probably banking on that fact and rightly figures that audience members will remember that Spider-man got his start with Tony Stark so it's still in some way connected.  

[fantastic_four]

19 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

22 minutes ago, 234wallst said:

At a high level, my understanding is Marvel Studios provided all the financing to make the prior 2 Spiderman movies, while Sony collected most if not all the box office.  For the current negotiations, I read something about a 50/50 split - does that mean Marvel now wants Sony to pay for half the budget?  This is a large sum of money - easily north of $100m.

MCU can easily explain Spidey missing for a while based on the ending of FFH.  I guarantee Sony will ruin the franchise once again. 

I think the main issue here is Marvel Studios is only going to leverage the best assets (which is primarily just Spiderman) as they need to get the most bang for their buck given the terms.  But Sony thinks it can somewhat replicate the MCU with the huge assortment of characters in the Spidey-verse; and having them all sit on the shelf is a waste.  And this is why Sony/Fox/WB have all failed the superhero business - they think just having the roster and printing movies is going to be a cash cow - but it's really about the quality of the films that will draw a fan base.

NOT correct.

Sony was 100% financially responsible for all Spider-Man solo films. The MCU would produce the films. The MCU was then allowed to use Spider-Man in its films and keep 100% of those profits, with no sharing with Sony.

Yea, I thought Sony was paying Marvel to produce.  At a markup, I assumed but never really knew.  But Marvel's production costs were all being footed by Sony.

[Bosco685]

Just now, fantastic_four said:

Which is what made the Sony exec's statement to Deadline all the more ridiculous--he was claiming the main reason for Disney pulling Feige out is because he's too busy with X-Men and Fantastic Four.  So that's why they wanted him to have control over Venom and the rest of the Spider-cast, too, because he's too busy?    Nice try, bonehead.  

I read that Deadline update. And how Sony was spinning some details to control the narrative. But Deadline also notes how this comes down to both parties contributing to the situation.

UPDATE: Disney-Sony Standoff Ends Marvel Studios & Kevin Feige’s Involvement In ‘Spider-Man’

Quote

There is a lot of webbing here, but it all comes down to money, and it’s easy to understand why both sides refused to give ground.

• Disney asked that future Spider-Man films be a 50/50 co-financing arrangement between the studios
• There were discussions that this might extend to other films in the Spider-Man universe. Sony turned that offer down flat.
• Sources said that Sony, led by Tom Rothman and Tony Vinciquerra, came back with other configurations, but Disney didn’t want to do that. But Sony did not want to share its biggest franchise.
• Sure Disney would be putting up half the funding, but the risk is in how much you are going to make back in profit.
• Disney wasn’t at all interested in continuing the current terms where Marvel receives in the range of 5% of first dollar gross, sources said.

So Disney even tried to cut into the profits of the other Sony Spider-Verse films. Yet is Disney going to share in the profits for any team films where it utilizes Spider-Man (which today is a 0% profit-share)?

[fantastic_four]

17 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

As much as I would like to see Spider-man in the MCU, it does not matter anymore if he is in the MCU.  Most movie goers do not follow up on the contractual side of things.  Sony is probably banking on that fact and rightly figures that audience members will remember that Spider-man got his start with Tony Stark so it's still in some way connected.  

It matters to me because I LOVE Venom and want to see him done well.  Avi Arad screwed the first iteration up, and while I enjoyed last year's version it wasn't close to what Marvel would have done, so I want to see him back.  Along with all of the other Spider-characters.

You'd now have to think that turning Spider-Man into the Iron Spider was planned from the start to get Marvel's hooks directly into fans again.  But killing off Stark mostly weakens that grip, so they tried to sink their claws in deeper by setting up Peter to be the next Tony Stark in Far From Home.  Now Sony has to reboot AGAIN to an extent just to separate themselves from all of that!    I suppose if I were tasked with cleaning this up I'd just pretend the connection to Iron Man never existed and lean into the next story with Tom Holland and the new cast.  Eh, it'll take a while for things to go bad no matter what they do.  Could take 5 years for things to go south enough, could take 20 if Sony picks good directors.

Edited August 21, 2019 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Correct.  Which is why, if even Sony Spider-man does not make as much as Disney-Sony Spider-man, Sony comes out ahead by taking the Holland iteration and going out on their own. 

You posted the numbers awhile ago where each film including advertising cost around $350 million and $450 million in production, advertising, and promotion.  If profit off the last one is $600 million on Far From Home then Sony has a big decision to make.  They assume the next one will make around $500-$600 million in profit to which they could split that profit off of a new deal with Disney at $250-$300 million to each studio... 

OR... they walk away from Disney and the film "at worst" only makes $400 million in profit of which they keep all of it. 

 

As much as I would like to see Spider-man in the MCU, it does not matter anymore if he is in the MCU.  Most movie goers do not follow up on the contractual side of things.  Sony is probably banking on that fact and rightly figures that audience members will remember that Spider-man got his start with Tony Stark so it's still in some way connected.  

Agreed. Sony could run with this, make less money, but still build out an extensive animated and live TV show and film massive franchise. It already has Lord & Miller working on the animated Spider-Verse films and spin-offs. Just without the MCU.

And the MCU is definitely moving forward, no matter Spider-Man or not. Though Feige has made it clear he loves the character. Even when he downplayed needing him years back.

[fantastic_four]

The next chess move for Iger might be to pull Jon Watts away from Sony.    Maybe even the Spider-Verse guys.  He's got all the money and all the content to attract directors, so I assume he can do whatever he wants.