John G. Fantucchio pedigree 3 3

[Bomber-Bob]

Regarding the question if these books have been pressed. IMO, it's very apparent the answer is yes. Anybody remember the Cole Shave discussions ? Here is a template that was published during that discussion showing the format of those uber pressed books. Though a bit more 'tempered' this new pedigree displays the same characteristics. Look at the upper right corner and the way the pages fan out.

 

 

 

Bob,

 

a) there is no way those two examples look similar - they are like night and day

b) it is entirely possible for an unpressed book to look like that ASM #10 9.8 - you of all people should know this, being a Silver Age collector.

 

Roy, I simply disagree with you. The ASM 10 was just one example but nearly all the books display the same characteristics, the off centered upper right corner with page fanning. Sure, it's possible for an unpressed book to have a similar look but highly unlikely for the majority. Are you saying these books were not pressed ? Come on, you know as well as most of us they were pressed.

[namisgr]

I'm with you, Bomber Bob. Sometimes, it seems people are so used to seeing high grade comics that are pressed, they've forgotten what unmanipulated books look like.

 

The unmanipulated Silver Age book typically has no pages that stick out near the top but not the bottom of the cover. Of course a small minority of Silver Age books have their pages sticking out, but even fewer show it at the top but not the bottom. Tellingly, the overhangs don't look like starched shirt collars, but rather have a slight natural bend that developed over time. Also, they typically don't extend much if at all above the top of the pages. The staples typically don't have dots of fuzzy paper where they go through the cover and there was perceptible movement during the pressing. There are scattered exceptions that were never pressed yet have this unusual set of characteristics, but when one sees book after book after book from a particular collection showing the telltale signs, it's clearly not from natural causes.

 

Compare to this, purchased in the days before CGC from the dealer who brought the collection to market, submitted for slabbing by me, and guaranteed never pressed. It's hard from the dark purple cover to see the gentle overhang bends along the top and bottom, but you can make it out along the top in the lighter-colored character box near the left corner. The cover fully extends to the pages at both the top and bottom right edge, and doesn't stretch beyond them along the top. The cover paper isn't at all fuzzy where the staples go through it:

 

[namisgr]

.

 

I think if they didnt have the "John Fantucchio was one of the most prominent artists during the early days of comic fandom. He created hundreds of covers and illustrations for fanzines such as... " angle (which helps in promotion) this woudn't be considered a pedigree.

 

I'll be curious to see how grand this pedigree is, and whether it's just a promotional tool since it's been a while since CGC got to certify a new pedigree.

 

Just look at the ASM2 (9.0) that's front and center in their promotion...

 

that's 9.0

 

Lower grade than Twin Cities ped, lower than the Mass ped and lower than the Northland copy.

 

At 9.0 the Fantu copy is one of 23 in grade with 26 copies in higher grade.

 

it's great sure, but not "exceptional" neither in condition or rarity...

 

I dont think these will go for any sort of premium except for the keys (maybe) or for copies where it happens to be the highest grade

 

again. .

Some of the earliest Pacific Coast books might have gotten a "meh" reaction from you too. Some of the earliest books were 8.0s, 8.5s, and the AF #15 was a 6.5. I think that pedigree is still well regarded in the collecting community.

 

I don't know how the rest of the collection will stack up with some other nice Silver Age pedigrees. But I think it's off to a pretty solid start.

Let`s wait and see. If it really is near complete for Marvel and DC from the beginning of the Marvel era (and hopefully earlier), then it would seem to definitely tick the depth and breadth box.

 

Then we just need to see how it does on quality. My guess is that it will follow the typical "curve" of so many collections, meaning below NM for the earlier books and major keys, then ultra-HG for 1964 and onwards. This doesn`t necessarily disqualify a collection from being an elite pedigree, as we`ve seen with the Pacific Coasts.

 

The AF15 and Hulk 1 were unfortunate exceptions in the Pacific Coast collection. From the end of 1962 forward, virtually every comic was in near mint or better shape. Check out the original selling list of the FFs up to ish 55. The exceptional structural quality of the SA runs is unmatched by any other pedigree:

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I'm with you, Bomber Bob. Sometimes, it seems people are so used to seeing high grade comics that are pressed, they've forgotten what unmanipulated books look like.

 

The unmanipulated Silver Age book typically has no pages sticking out near the top but not the bottom of the cover. Of course a small minority of Silver Age books have their pages sticking out, but even fewer show it at the top but not the bottom. Tellingly, the overhangs don't look like starched shirt collars, but rather have a slight natural bend that developed over time. Also, they typically don't extend much if at all above the top of the pages. The staples typically don't have dots of fuzzy paper where they go through the cover and there was perceptible movement during the pressing. There are scattered exceptions that were never pressed yet have this unusual set of characteristics, but when one sees book after book after book from a particular collection showing the telltale signs, it's clearly not from natural causes.

 

Compare to this, purchased in the days before CGC from the dealer who brought the collection to market, submitted for slabbing by me, and guaranteed never pressed. It's hard from the dark purple cover to see the gentle overhang bends along the top and bottom, but you can make it out along the top in the lighter-colored character box near the left corner. The cover fully extends to the pages at both the top and bottom right edge, and doesn't stretch beyond them along the top. The cover paper isn't at all fuzzy where the staples go through it:

 

 

Wow, what a great looking book, incredible. Thanks for the validation. I know better than to engage people on pressing, my only point here it there is a look,a 'blueprint', for the way pressed books look today. IMO, this collection has obviously been pressed.

[Captain_Pike]

I'm with you, Bomber Bob. Sometimes, it seems people are so used to seeing high grade comics that are pressed, they've forgotten what unmanipulated books look like.

 

The unmanipulated Silver Age book typically has no pages sticking out near the top but not the bottom of the cover. Of course a small minority of Silver Age books have their pages sticking out, but even fewer show it at the top but not the bottom. Tellingly, the overhangs don't look like starched shirt collars, but rather have a slight natural bend that developed over time. Also, they typically don't extend much if at all above the top of the pages. The staples typically don't have dots of fuzzy paper where they go through the cover and there was perceptible movement during the pressing. There are scattered exceptions that were never pressed yet have this unusual set of characteristics, but when one sees book after book after book from a particular collection showing the telltale signs, it's clearly not from natural causes.

 

Compare to this, purchased in the days before CGC from the dealer who brought the collection to market, submitted for slabbing by me, and guaranteed never pressed. It's hard from the dark purple cover to see the gentle overhang bends along the top and bottom, but you can make it out along the top in the lighter-colored character box near the left corner. The cover fully extends to the pages at both the top and bottom right edge, and doesn't stretch beyond them along the top. The cover paper isn't at all fuzzy where the staples go through it:

 

 

Wow, what a great looking book, incredible. Thanks for the validation. I know better than to engage people on pressing, my only point here it there is a look,a 'blueprint', for the way pressed books look today. IMO, this collection has obviously been pressed.

Fear mongering!

You're not going to get the ASMs cheap.

IMHO, the ASMs don't look pressed.

[FlyingDonut]

.

 

I think if they didnt have the "John Fantucchio was one of the most prominent artists during the early days of comic fandom. He created hundreds of covers and illustrations for fanzines such as... " angle (which helps in promotion) this woudn't be considered a pedigree.

 

I'll be curious to see how grand this pedigree is, and whether it's just a promotional tool since it's been a while since CGC got to certify a new pedigree.

 

Just look at the ASM2 (9.0) that's front and center in their promotion...

 

that's 9.0

 

Lower grade than Twin Cities ped, lower than the Mass ped and lower than the Northland copy.

 

At 9.0 the Fantu copy is one of 23 in grade with 26 copies in higher grade.

 

it's great sure, but not "exceptional" neither in condition or rarity...

 

I dont think these will go for any sort of premium except for the keys (maybe) or for copies where it happens to be the highest grade

 

again. .

Some of the earliest Pacific Coast books might have gotten a "meh" reaction from you too. Some of the earliest books were 8.0s, 8.5s, and the AF #15 was a 6.5. I think that pedigree is still well regarded in the collecting community.

 

I don't know how the rest of the collection will stack up with some other nice Silver Age pedigrees. But I think it's off to a pretty solid start.

Let`s wait and see. If it really is near complete for Marvel and DC from the beginning of the Marvel era (and hopefully earlier), then it would seem to definitely tick the depth and breadth box.

 

Then we just need to see how it does on quality. My guess is that it will follow the typical "curve" of so many collections, meaning below NM for the earlier books and major keys, then ultra-HG for 1964 and onwards. This doesn`t necessarily disqualify a collection from being an elite pedigree, as we`ve seen with the Pacific Coasts.

 

The AF15 and Hulk 1 were unfortunate exceptions in the Pacific Coast collection. From the end of 1962 forward, virtually every comic was in near mint or better shape. Check out the original selling list of the FFs up to ish 55. The exceptional structural quality of the SA runs is unmatched by any other pedigree:

 

 

I need my time machine.

[mosconi]

Regarding the question if these books have been pressed. IMO, it's very apparent the answer is yes. Anybody remember the Cole Shave discussions ? Here is a template that was published during that discussion showing the format of those uber pressed books. Though a bit more 'tempered' this new pedigree displays the same characteristics. Look at the upper right corner and the way the pages fan out.

 

Here's the thread which illustrates the top right corner page fanning and starched appearance associated with certain press jobs. Page 1 where namisgr clearly displays the before and after results of JIM #93:

Cole Schave books

 

[namisgr]

.

 

I think if they didnt have the "John Fantucchio was one of the most prominent artists during the early days of comic fandom. He created hundreds of covers and illustrations for fanzines such as... " angle (which helps in promotion) this woudn't be considered a pedigree.

 

I'll be curious to see how grand this pedigree is, and whether it's just a promotional tool since it's been a while since CGC got to certify a new pedigree.

 

Just look at the ASM2 (9.0) that's front and center in their promotion...

 

that's 9.0

 

Lower grade than Twin Cities ped, lower than the Mass ped and lower than the Northland copy.

 

At 9.0 the Fantu copy is one of 23 in grade with 26 copies in higher grade.

 

it's great sure, but not "exceptional" neither in condition or rarity...

 

I dont think these will go for any sort of premium except for the keys (maybe) or for copies where it happens to be the highest grade

 

again. .

Some of the earliest Pacific Coast books might have gotten a "meh" reaction from you too. Some of the earliest books were 8.0s, 8.5s, and the AF #15 was a 6.5. I think that pedigree is still well regarded in the collecting community.

 

I don't know how the rest of the collection will stack up with some other nice Silver Age pedigrees. But I think it's off to a pretty solid start.

Let`s wait and see. If it really is near complete for Marvel and DC from the beginning of the Marvel era (and hopefully earlier), then it would seem to definitely tick the depth and breadth box.

 

Then we just need to see how it does on quality. My guess is that it will follow the typical "curve" of so many collections, meaning below NM for the earlier books and major keys, then ultra-HG for 1964 and onwards. This doesn`t necessarily disqualify a collection from being an elite pedigree, as we`ve seen with the Pacific Coasts.

 

The AF15 and Hulk 1 were unfortunate exceptions in the Pacific Coast collection. From the end of 1962 forward, virtually every comic was in near mint or better shape. Check out the original selling list of the FFs up to ish 55. The exceptional structural quality of the SA runs is unmatched by any other pedigree:

 

 

I need my time machine.

 

I could have bought them all.

[Ghost Town]

I could have bought them all.

I bought the FF #14 and 16 from that list.

 

I remember having to dial in with my 14.4k baud modem to PCE's bulletin board system to see the listings. It was still the Stone Age back then.

 

Shockingly, I still have a copy of the session:

 

 

Enter the Item Number (or X to Exit) : 15335

 

Item#:15335 Pub: MVL Sym: FF Title: FANTASTIC FOUR No: 14

ORIGINAL OWNER, SUB-MARINER X-OVER Trade Date: 06/18/99

Publish Date: MAY 1963 Pedigree: OO Restored:

CGSA Grade: NM/M 90 Bid:$630 Ask:$700 Sts:BAK

MD 1.Off-Center:0 5.Ink Contam :0 Post Manuf Defects (0-5)

2.Spn Split :0 6.Int Pgs Cut:0 9.Arrv Date:0

3.Creases :0 7.Trimmed Pgs:0 10.Dist Mark:0

4.Stpl Place:0 8.Misc :0

Handling Defects: Rng(0-10) Description

11.Tan Cvr (ins/out) 0.0/0.0

12.Tanning Int Pgs 3.0

13.Crs/Impr(cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

14.Tears (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

15.Pcs Miss(cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

16.Writing (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

17.Stains (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

18.Spine Roll 0.0

19.Cover Detached 0.0

20.Spine Wear 0.0

21.Tape 0.0

22.Original Gloss 0.0

23.Miscellaneous 0.0

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Enter the Item Number (or X to Exit) : 15337

 

Item#:15337 Pub: MVL Sym: FF Title: FANTASTIC FOUR No: 16

ORIGINAL OWNER, 1ST ANT-MAN X-OVER Trade Date: 06/18/99

Publish Date: JULY 1963 Pedigree: OO Restored:

CGSA Grade: NM++ 88 Bid:$475 Ask:$575 Sts:BAK

MD 1.Off-Center:0 5.Ink Contam :0 Post Manuf Defects (0-5)

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11.Tan Cvr (ins/out) 0.0/0.0

12.Tanning Int Pgs 3.5

13.Crs/Impr(cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

14.Tears (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

15.Pcs Miss(cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

16.Writing (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

17.Stains (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

18.Spine Roll 0.0

19.Cover Detached 0.0

20.Spine Wear 0.0

21.Tape 0.0

22.Original Gloss 0.0

23.Miscellaneous 0.0

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Enter the Item Number (or X to Exit) : 15439

 

Item#:15439 Pub: MVL Sym: JM Title: JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY No: 88

ORIGINAL OWNER Trade Date: 01/01/80

Publish Date: JAN 1963 Pedigree: OO Restored:

CGSA Grade: NM++ 88 Bid:$0 Ask:$475 Sts:BAK

MD 1.Off-Center:0 5.Ink Contam :0 Post Manuf Defects (0-5)

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11.Tan Cvr (ins/out) 0.0/0.0

12.Tanning Int Pgs 3.5

13.Crs/Impr(cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

14.Tears (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

15.Pcs Miss(cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

16.Writing (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

17.Stains (cvr/int) 0.0/0.0

18.Spine Roll 0.0

19.Cover Detached 0.0

20.Spine Wear 0.0

21.Tape 0.0

22.Original Gloss 0.0

23.Miscellaneous 0.0

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[tth2]

.

 

I think if they didnt have the "John Fantucchio was one of the most prominent artists during the early days of comic fandom. He created hundreds of covers and illustrations for fanzines such as... " angle (which helps in promotion) this woudn't be considered a pedigree.

 

I'll be curious to see how grand this pedigree is, and whether it's just a promotional tool since it's been a while since CGC got to certify a new pedigree.

 

Just look at the ASM2 (9.0) that's front and center in their promotion...

 

that's 9.0

 

Lower grade than Twin Cities ped, lower than the Mass ped and lower than the Northland copy.

 

At 9.0 the Fantu copy is one of 23 in grade with 26 copies in higher grade.

 

it's great sure, but not "exceptional" neither in condition or rarity...

 

I dont think these will go for any sort of premium except for the keys (maybe) or for copies where it happens to be the highest grade

 

again. .

Some of the earliest Pacific Coast books might have gotten a "meh" reaction from you too. Some of the earliest books were 8.0s, 8.5s, and the AF #15 was a 6.5. I think that pedigree is still well regarded in the collecting community.

 

I don't know how the rest of the collection will stack up with some other nice Silver Age pedigrees. But I think it's off to a pretty solid start.

Let`s wait and see. If it really is near complete for Marvel and DC from the beginning of the Marvel era (and hopefully earlier), then it would seem to definitely tick the depth and breadth box.

 

Then we just need to see how it does on quality. My guess is that it will follow the typical "curve" of so many collections, meaning below NM for the earlier books and major keys, then ultra-HG for 1964 and onwards. This doesn`t necessarily disqualify a collection from being an elite pedigree, as we`ve seen with the Pacific Coasts.

 

The AF15 and Hulk 1 were unfortunate exceptions in the Pacific Coast collection. From the end of 1962 forward, virtually every comic was in near mint or better shape. Check out the original selling list of the FFs up to ish 55. The exceptional structural quality of the SA runs is unmatched by any other pedigree:

 

 

I need my time machine.

I remember seeing the listings. First reaction was that no way the books can really be that good, and second reaction was that Robert Roter was trying to commit highway robbery by charging such insanely high prices. They were higher than even Marnin Rosenberg`s prices!

 

However, word soon got out that some experienced collectors had looked at the books in person and confirmed that they were as good as advertised (or even better), and then after that the books flew off the shelves.

[tth2]

The AF15 and Hulk 1 were unfortunate exceptions in the Pacific Coast collection. From the end of 1962 forward, virtually every comic was in near mint or better shape.

Unfortunately, that`s the period that is so difficult for virtually every SA Marvel collection, with the notable exception of White Mountain.

 

The PC AF 15, Hulk 1, JIM 83 and FF 1 (not sure if there is one), which make up 2/3 of the Marvel mega-keys, are all non-NM.

 

Same with some lower tier keys from the earlier period--TTA 27 (not sure if there even is one), TTA 35 and Sgt Fury 1.

[namisgr]

There aren't any Pacific Coast Marvels before the spring of 1962. There's no FF1-3 or TTA27. There are no 10 cent DCs. But the DD 1 is a 9.4, Avengers 1 and TOS 39 are 9.6 and X-Men 1 a 9.8.

 

The point was that the pedigree was insanely spectacular from late 1962 onward, not 1964.

[Sqeggs]

I don't care if they're pressed,because they are, so who cares.

 

I do care if the following are in 9.8 white in this collection:

 

Fantastic Four 116

Fantastic Four 117

Fantastic Four 119

Fantastic Four 120

Fantastic Four 124

Fantastic Four 128

Fantastic Four 129

Fantastic Four 130

Fantastic Four 136

Fantastic Four 147

Fantastic Four 153

Fantastic Four 164

Fantastic Four 179

Fantastic Four 184

 

This is also a plug - if anyone has these in 9.8/W you should ping me.

 

...I'm surprised they're so elusive..... my friends and I were usually snagging 2 copies each of our favorites back then..... but they were spinner books.... GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

He's looking for 9.8s, not 1.8s.

[namisgr]

I don't care if they're pressed,because they are, so who cares.

 

I do care if the following are in 9.8 white in this collection:

 

Fantastic Four 116

Fantastic Four 117

Fantastic Four 119

Fantastic Four 120

Fantastic Four 124

Fantastic Four 128

Fantastic Four 129

Fantastic Four 130

Fantastic Four 136

Fantastic Four 147

Fantastic Four 153

Fantastic Four 164

Fantastic Four 179

Fantastic Four 184

 

This is also a plug - if anyone has these in 9.8/W you should ping me.

 

...I'm surprised they're so elusive..... my friends and I were usually snagging 2 copies each of our favorites back then..... but they were spinner books.... GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

He's looking for 9.8s, not 1.8s.

 

So true, dude.

 

Take FF120 and its black picture frame cover, for instance. There are a grand total of two copies in the cgc census in 9.8 condition, only one of which also has white pages. A new pedigree source of ultra high grade early bronze age comics would be welcomed by a number of devoted collectors.

[Drummy]

Hey all --

 

Looks like the pedigree's ASM #1 is up on Comiclink now...CGC 9.0 with white pages. Lovely book -- here's a link:

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAuctions%2Fsearch%2Easp%3FPreviewCode%3D2017feb%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Damazing%26GO%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_1160482&id=1160482

 

Dan

[mosconi]

Regarding the question if these books have been pressed. IMO, it's very apparent the answer is yes. Anybody remember the Cole Shave discussions ? Here is a template that was published during that discussion showing the format of those uber pressed books. Though a bit more 'tempered' this new pedigree displays the same characteristics. Look at the upper right corner and the way the pages fan out.

It's an unbelievably gorgeous book, but I believe Bob is correct in his observation of the pressings:

[VintageComics]

The ASM #1 is not even close to the template image.

 

As has been said many times before, this is a common trait for Silver Age Marvels.

[rob_react]

The AF15 and Hulk 1 were unfortunate exceptions in the Pacific Coast collection. From the end of 1962 forward, virtually every comic was in near mint or better shape.

Unfortunately, that`s the period that is so difficult for virtually every SA Marvel collection, with the notable exception of White Mountain.

 

The PC AF 15, Hulk 1, JIM 83 and FF 1 (not sure if there is one), which make up 2/3 of the Marvel mega-keys, are all non-NM.

 

Same with some lower tier keys from the earlier period--TTA 27 (not sure if there even is one), TTA 35 and Sgt Fury 1.

 

reference:

 

http://itsalljustcomics.com/existence-and-grades-of-silver-age-key-books-from-the-major-pedigree-collections/

[chrisco37]

The ASM #1 is not even close to the template image.

 

As has been said many times before, this is a common trait for Silver Age Marvels.

 

It's not as pronounced as the template, but it's there.

[namisgr]

The ASM #1 is not even close to the template image.

 

As has been said many times before, this is a common trait for Silver Age Marvels.

 

It's not as pronounced as the template, but it's there.

 

And it's not there just on this one comic from the pedigree, but on a slew of them. To deny that it's the result of pressing is to have one's head buried in the sand.

 

The comics are still gorgeous, with uniformly white pages and respectable cover registration and colors. It'll be cool to see more of the collection come to market. With the long wait for a new Silver Age pedigree, I expect the collection to do really well at auction.