Edgar Church Hits coming up on HA 1 1

[Silver Surfer]

Not sure to be honest but Fishler did comment once that this was a very common issue. I figure all the BSD collectors must have pedigree or high grade wonders buried in their long term collections?

[Electron]

I'm just drooling looking at some of these books

 

Honorable mention to the second highest (and only graded) copy of Detective 35

 

That book sure is an eye catcher. Still surprised that its only the second highest graded copy as its a fairly common book. I suspect there are a number of raw copies sitting in collections all over the place.

I agree! You can't throw a rock without hitting a high grade raw copy of Detective 35.

 

Isn't there a pedigree 9.2 with a cleaned cover out there and doesn't a boardie here have a smoking raw copy?

 

9.2 cleaned is the Larson. The Church and Allentown would qualify as high grade for sure,plus the 8.5 on the census makes three high grade unrestored copies I can think of. It's one of my favorite funny books so I tend to pay attention to what's out there and in my experience it's not likely that there are number of nice raw copies all over the place. I'd guess rather the opposite that due to the high value of the book, most are currently slabbed.

[Electron]

I guess these things are relative. I certainly wish I had a copy. What does the census tell us?

 

Census confirms that you do not have a copy! no 9. anything on it.

[batman_fan]

I'm just drooling looking at some of these books

 

Honorable mention to the second highest (and only graded) copy of Detective 35

 

That book sure is an eye catcher. Still surprised that its only the second highest graded copy as its a fairly common book. I suspect there are a number of raw copies sitting in collections all over the place.

I agree! You can't throw a rock without hitting a high grade raw copy of Detective 35.

 

The phrase is "swing a dead cat"

[MrBedrock]

Census confirms that you do not have a copy!

[lou_fine]

I guess these things are relative. I certainly wish I had a copy. What does the census tell us?

 

Census tells us there are a total of 67 copies graded by CGC so far.

 

Definitely more than I expected. This is made up of 33 Universal copies with the highest being 8.5; 29 Restored copies with 2 of them topping out at 9.2; 4 Qualified copies, and then 1 lonely Signature copy coming in at a grade of 1.5.

[Gotham Kid]

How about a Tec 32 CGC 9.6 !

[RareHighGrade]

How about a Tec 32 CGC 9.6 !

Is it possible that the 9.6 is a press and resub of the 9.2 (cr-ow) that sold last year?

[nearmint]

How about a Tec 32 CGC 9.6 !

Is it possible that the 9.6 is a press and resub of the 9.2 (cr-ow) that sold last year?

 

Yep, it's the same copy. The 9.2 sold in June of 2014. The 9.6 was graded November 2015. Lots of tell-tale signs if you look at the scans side by side.

[tth2]

How about a Tec 32 CGC 9.6 !

Is it possible that the 9.6 is a press and resub of the 9.2 (cr-ow) that sold last year?

 

Yep, it's the same copy. The 9.2 sold in June of 2014. The 9.6 was graded November 2015. Lots of tell-tale signs if you look at the scans side by side.

Man I love this hobby!

[lou_fine]

How about a Tec 32 CGC 9.6 !

Is it possible that the 9.6 is a press and resub of the 9.2 (cr-ow) that sold last year?

 

Yep, it's the same copy. The 9.2 sold in June of 2014. The 9.6 was graded November 2015. Lots of tell-tale signs if you look at the scans side by side.

Man I love this hobby!

 

Yes indeed, it's really kind of sad that high end grading has now evolved devolved over time into a game of chasing after the near invisible additional revenue generating defects, as opposed to the fugly potential additional revenue inhibiting defects that were so much more of a factor in the days prior to CGC.

 

 

 

[RareHighGrade]

How about a Tec 32 CGC 9.6 !

Is it possible that the 9.6 is a press and resub of the 9.2 (cr-ow) that sold last year?

 

Yep, it's the same copy. The 9.2 sold in June of 2014. The 9.6 was graded November 2015. Lots of tell-tale signs if you look at the scans side by side.

It would be nice if CGC removed the 9.2 from the census for accuracy.

[lou_fine]

How about a Tec 32 CGC 9.6 !

Is it possible that the 9.6 is a press and resub of the 9.2 (cr-ow) that sold last year?

 

Yep, it's the same copy. The 9.2 sold in June of 2014. The 9.6 was graded November 2015. Lots of tell-tale signs if you look at the scans side by side.

It would be nice if CGC removed the 9.2 from the census for accuracy.

 

I believe they would need the "old 9.2 label" to be submitted back to them, otherwise it's just guesswork on their part as they apparently do not work from prior scans.

[clarkkentdds]

I bet the old 9.2 notation is removed after this sells... I was surprised it took us this long to figure it out! You all really think a new to market early tec in 9.6 just showed up?!

Edited January 14, 2017 by Clarkkentdds

[Gotham Kid]

I bet the old 9.2 notation is removed after this sells... I was surprised it took us this long to figure it out! You all really think a new to market early tec in 9.6 just showed up?!

 

The fact that the 9.2 was bumped to 9.6 was brought up by me shortly after it did.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9102311

 

So no, we didn't take long at all to figure it out.

 

The was for if it sold for 50K as a 9.2 (yeah, I know when and where it sold too), what price will it bring as a "9.6". It is currently in 3rd spot of HA auction result estimates only behind the Bat1 3.5 and AF15 8.5.

[lou_fine]

I bet the old 9.2 notation is removed after this sells... I was surprised it took us this long to figure it out! You all really think a new to market early tec in 9.6 just showed up?!

 

Looks like we didn't have to wait for the actual sale to go through as the 9.2 graded copy has already been removed from the CGC census.

 

Wonder if the consignor finally got around to turning in the old 9.2 label or if CGC just decided to do this based upon the info here and also from the prvious thread earlier this year.

[Gotham Kid]

CGC has on occasion corrected the census based on submitted evidence (even without the label returned). They did so for example with Detective 50 when I made my case. Same for a Detective 27 that was IGB'd.

 

On the Tec 32 my money is on a returned label.

[Cat-Man_America]

Getting back to the original topic ...as it seems logical that the discussion has segued into the sticky area of grade bumps... the Church Hits benefitting from uniformly high grades should be worth a closer look. Church high grades aren't unusual, but having noticed visible cover flaws on several, I'm curious if any eagle-eyed boardies are also concerned about the grades?

 

It's already assumed that Church copies will sell at a premium (minimally triple OSG), but given visible surface flaws apparent in HA scans of a couple of books it begs the question of grades bestowed just to insure their rank.

 

I'm not trying to second guess the grader's intentions here, just making an observation based on the evidence of HA scans. The interiors are undoubtably amazing, but it's impossible not to notice examples of cover flaws (spine damage, dust shadows along three sides, etc.). For books grading 9.0 or above these seem at odds with CGC's prior grading standards.

 

Of course, for all we know those standards may have changed ...I'm certainly not privy to any laxness or tightening of standards..., but none of this matters if the bidder is buying a bold label that insists it's the highest grade and the book is just along for the ride.

 

My overarching concern is the longer term impact this could have on trust of third party grading.

 

Pedigrees stand on their own merit, not requiring any embellishment to boost interest. However, if the dollars and cents of high grade investment starts to look more like opportunism ...for both owners and third party grading companies (I.e., when to submit books and/or press books just to claim bragging rights or maximize profits)..., then we may be reaching a tipping point of diminishing returns in a shell game. If that happens the hobby is in trouble.

 

Again, I'm not trying to throw cold water on any of the great books coming up in the Heritage Auction, but I'm voicing valid concerns. Like I said ...and you can take this to the bank..., I've decided to sit this one out, so I have no dog in this hunt.

[MrBedrock]

If you are at all insinuating that these may not be the best examples of each and every issue of HIt from 1 through 24 then you really are not very knowledgeable on the subject. You can certainly argue whether any individual book is graded off by a step (9.0 or 9.2 for example), but there is no doubt that each of the Church Hits is the best copy available of that particular book regardless of numerical grade.

 

But you know that...you're just trying to jab CGC..

[Bomber-Bob]

I just left a thread where someone was complaining that CGC is grading one to two grades too tight. Now I come here and read about a 9.2 morphing into a 9.6 . So really this new 9.6 was graded too tight and should be a 9.8 or 9.9 ? Richard, you had the right idea by deslabbing many of your books. It's time we start looking at the book and not the grade. The multiples paid for literally the same book because of a press and resub is beyond reason.