With technology scattering pop culture like never before... 1 1

[delekkerste]

I can speak from my perspective, as a new collector, who still reads a great deal of modern comics... I keep a subscription to Marvel Unlimited, and I check in from time to time, but I don't truly follow a single book from the Big Two - some of the art is strong, but the storytelling is bankrupt, treading water, and two or three issues away from a reboot at any given time. This isn't a knock on the people creating these stories, this is a knock on the industry, and if I'm being honest, the consumers who enable such behavior... myself included considering my Marvel Unlimited subscription.

 

Love for iconic characters aside, my personal opinion is that the current state of the Big Two is that of a storytelling wastelands. I don't believe a healthy new generation of readership is being cultivated. I strongly doubt that, come two or three decades hence, there will be a population capable of appreciating the current source material to such an extent that they'll eagerly slap down a significant amount of money to experience pride of ownership or stewardship.

 

I like reading modern Marvel comics on Marvel Unlimited (because I read so many that the average cost is basically nothing), but it's a lot like eating Chinese food - it goes down tasty but then it's quickly forgotten and you're hungry again after a couple of hours. Due to decompressed storytelling and generic covers, there is very little distinctive about any particular issue; it's more like you judge the overall feeling you get from reading a 6-issue storyline, even if it doesn't stick with you like the books of yore did. As such, I'm happy to shell out $69.99 a year to read as many of them as I want, but I have no desire to buy any of the art.

 

What you said about reboots and stuff also goes back to the fact that they did away with the Marvel Universe and the continuity therein that used to tie everything together, so even good stories aren't really grounded in anything anymore, so there's no sense of lasting significance or importance. Changes are made willy-nilly, titles are rebooted all the time...they're just pretty pictures now and don't really carry the weight that the in-continuity books did. Not to mention, just the sheer volume of stories that have been told about the established characters just makes the newer stuff less important by comparison. A lot of people can tell you pretty much everything about ASM #1-300, because there was so much new and fundamentally important stuff happening with the character, so much happening in each issue with their distinctive covers and interiors. Nowadays, even when something allegedly significant happens in a Marvel book, people can't even visualize what the cover of that book looked like or what issue # it was, and as soon as the event is ret-conned or the series rebooted anyway, the importance seems to fade away as well. So, why pay up for the art?

 

[BCarter27]

I think a correction might occur to vintage super-hero art at around the 30 year mark, but I don't think it will crash as hard as comics, vinyl, books, or sports cards. The one-of-a-kind aspect is still alluring enough and I think the remaining second-gen collectors (as in the group right after the group that bought the last physical art) will still be propping up prices to some extent.

 

I think whatever changes to the modern indie art scene will happen much sooner than that. The new model may have settled in about 5 years.

[Bronty]

Difficulty of conversion - and it's very real - is a two edged sword. It's not just what prevents new entrants but also what has kept and will keep incumbents around so long. That's why new comics can be in the dumps while old comics do well, but it has to catch up, eventually, when the incumbents die off. For that reason I'm of the mind that it's 25 years plus before it collapses but when it does, it will do so HARD

 

I'm not saying it's not possible, but why do you think it will be 25 years-plus? IMO, the mean expectation (think of it as the Vegas over/under line) is probably more like 15 years, with a 98% confidence interval spanning 0 to 30 years. The reality is, 25+ years from now, most of today's prominent collectors will be AARP members by then, and that's even long enough for a good number of collectors to have passed away. While a number of people will hang on to their art until the bitter end, I'm pretty sure most people will slow down their buying in their 50s and 60s (if not earlier). And, empirically, we've seen a number of prominent collectors in their mid-50s to early 60s liquidate recently (e.g., Doc Dave, Frank Darabont, etc.), which is about the right time to do it if you're planning to use the proceeds to enjoy retirement/your later years while you still have both the time and ability to enjoy them.

 

Some very prominent collectors have indicated to me that their current intention is to liquidate around when they're in their early 60s (call it within 15 years). Undoubtedly their (substantial) buying will have peaked and tapered long before then. Another friend indicated to me recently that he's probably going to start selling within a few years. Yet another says he's probably no more than 5 years away. Again, look at it from the Peak Art point of view - at what point does one pass the point of spending more than half of all the money you will ever spend on art, and where are most collectors, even those still spending with reckless abandon, on that spectrum? I'd back up the truck and bet that most established collectors in the 45-up age group are already past their individual Peak Art points, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are past 90% within 15 years.

 

I just think this hobby is going to change a lot within 15 years. Most of the top collectors today will be in their 60s and 70s. Will 60 year-old collectors still be trying to haggle with 70-something Albert in the year 2032 over Jim Lee art? I tend to doubt it. I would wager by then that this group will have largely stopped buying on balance (their aggregate sales will exceed their aggregate new purchases), or be close to it. A good number will probably no longer be in the hobby, just as many of the top collectors from when I first got into the hobby have either cashed out or at least become largely inactive. I've noticed over the past year or two that convention attendance already seems to be down a bit among the established OA collector crowd - imagine what it will look like in 15 years. Will there be a bunch of salt-and-pepper and white haired guys lugging around portfolios then?

 

It seems we agree that the generational changeover will be bad news for vintage art. If that's the case, no need to wait 25 years when the movers and shakers of today are largely in their 70s and 80s - we'll start to see the effects by/around the 15-year point unless some miracle happens and we're all living longer and are a lot richer in 2032 than modern economics and science would project today.

 

I just think there's a lot of guys like say Ethan Roberts (RIP ) for whom collecting is a part of who they are and something they can't really stop even if they wanted to. So I expect the tail to be longer than would otherwise make sense, but whatever , trying to predict the timing of things so far in the future (whether 10 years or 25) is hard at the best of times. I can understand you talking to prominent friends and concluding the cash will dry up, but intentions can change, and turnover of buyers (people becoming more and less active) is something that is always happening in the background. Where you can't get around it anymore is when all the would be buyers are retired and have a big drop in income. I think that's a ways out as Id say the average age is early 50s, but admittedly that's a total guess

[Nexus]

How many super-collectors are out there buying up the collapsing market for pennies? (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/magazine/the-brazilian-bus-magnate-whos-buying-up-all-the-worlds-vinyl-records.html)

 

Wow, this is turning into some thread!

 

Still getting caught up, but wanted to say thanks as well for posting this link. Fun read. I think we can all relate, to one degree or another, to the obsession.

 

I'll try to post some links soon, but after Debbie Reynolds' passing a couple of weeks ago, the stories about her invariably mentioned her legendary movie prop collection. Now here was a true collector. The anecdotes about her bidding at auction ("My hand never came down") as well as her several million dollar offer to buy MGM's warehouse (in the early '70s!) are just great stuff. She had the bug.

[otherworldsj33]

If I wanted a OA page for a modern comic that was digital, I would see if I could get the artist to draw and ink it for me on traditional art board. And I would ask him to please put the title, issue number and page number, and date he drew the page for me along with his signature on the back.

At the rate I read digital comics, that may never happen, not even once.

 

Value wise, I think about 99.5 % of modern art will never have much relative worth. I think you have only a slightly worse chance of getting rich with the lottery then with buying modern art.

Miller said some years back, (I think it was in 1994?) that the current comics were retro with a nose ring.

Then most modern OA is retread with a cane.

 

As far as the better stuff, the prime A/A+ GA/SA/BA art, and the collectors that own it, I have a question.

Collectors now that are in their mid 40's or older. Quite a few are going to liquidate in the next 10, 15 years. Lets say, just throwing out an arbitrary year, that in 2027 your getting ready to sell. In the previous 10 years there has been a steady stream of Ethan Roberts (RIP) like collections coming to market every auction. Either because of death or cash out.

You have seen prices on a lot of stuff soften and even crash in some cases. But maybe about 25% to 50% of your collection has not only held value but has increased. Some pieces have increased a lot. Some not what you expected.

The other 50% to 75% has lost value. In some cases a great deal.

Also, you have witnessed a slowing down in the last year of two of increases in value of even the better OA stuff. Maybe because of all the great OA coming to market the last 10 years. Maybe also because of the economy. And still maybe because there are less collectors out there buying the stuff. And who is left has purchased a lot of OA that's been available the last 10 years.

 

So what do you do?

Hold on longer?

Give instructions to your kids what to do after you die?

Sell at whatever the market will bear?

Donate the better stuff to a Museum, get a tax credit.

Decide that if you can't sell it at a stunning profit, you'd rather just crayola it in, frame it and hang it up, it'll stay there on wall til the day you die?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nexus]

Really enjoying this thread, one of the stronger ones of recent memory. Lots to chew on.

 

There are points I agree AND disagree with in each post. Yes, there's a thriving market for new art. But sorry to say, I wonder how much longer libraries will even be around, let alone have any sort of dramatic impact on future comics fandom. Same with book stores.

 

OTOH...

 

First, I think the product is inherently inferior. No word balloons, often less detailed due to digital finishing techniques (inking, coloring, etc.) and, most crucially, decompressed storytelling. Less simply happens on a modern art page, and the lack of words makes it even harder to judge the context.

 

I wouldn't say the art is "inferior". It's different. Art used to be twice-up...is later smaller art "inherently inferior"? Not necessarily; it's too much a blanket statement. And really, for fans of new comics, who only know new comics, THEY DON'T CARE that modern art doesn't look the same as a vintage page. They like what they like, they want what they want, and the fact that an older page from a comic they don't know has lettering, means very little. In much the same way a nostalgia collector won't care about anything new.

 

 

Second, there's just so much of it. Think about how many thousands of new pages are created each and every month. I haven't done the math, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few years of Modern books across all the dozens of publishers equals more OA than all the pre-1990 art still in existence. The % which is truly collectible is absolutely tiny. It also makes it easy to not chase pieces because there will be many comparable pages to choose from as well, unlike back in the old days.

 

There is a lot of art being produced, no question. But as someone else has already pointed out, more and more of it is digital. The number of actual physical pages doesn't equal the number of comics on the stands.

 

Also, the % which is truly collectible may be absolutely tiny...to you. For the right price, it's all collectible to someone. Anyway, whatever the definition is for "truly collectible", I doubt the % changes much for whatever period we're in for comics.

 

Third, Modern OA is very faddish. Yes, despite points #1 and #2, plenty of modern readers/collectors still want OA from their favorite books. That said, with vintage art, many of the characters/titles have been published more or less continuously for decades. With Modern OA, indie titles tend to have a very finite lifespan, and are only hot during a certain part of their run. One day, it's all about Peter Panzerfaust and The Sixth Gun; the next it's all about something else.

 

Well, I'd argue that OA in general has become faddish, but yes, it may be more faddish for modern art.

 

For those who bought PETER PANZERFAUST and THE SIXTH GUN art for speculation, because it was "hot"? The less charitable will say they got what they deserved; I'll just say I hoped they learned a lesson. But for the fans who truly love those books, I bet the art is still pretty damn cool to them.

 

There's no question that speculation drives much of the interest here for modern comics. And that bleeds into OA. Day trading may work to some degree with floppies...but it'll kill you in OA. Leave it for the people who just like the art, and don't care about profit.

 

And as for mainstream art from the Big Two, as good as the stories and art may be in some cases, it's hard to match the importance of the vintage art when the stories are reaching a tiny audience (by historical standards) and are merely adding on to 40, 50, 70 years of history. I think in many respects that the Bendis/Maleev and Brubaker/Lark Daredevil runs are every bit as good (in some cases, better) than the Miller DD run, but there are also so many more pages with so much less happening on them than the typical Miller DD page as to render them uninteresting from a collecting standpoint (and I think that Maleev's working methods mean that there aren't really many/any pages available from his run anyway - another casualty of modern comics).

 

Just as 80% of fine art never resells for a premium once it leaves the dealer, so it is with modern OA (probably even much higher than 80%). There's just so much of it out there, and certain titles and storylines only stay hot for so long. I enjoy reading modern titles, and read quite a number of them - I've long been reading various indie titles and I've been consuming vast amounts of Modern Marvel titles since signing up for Marvel Unlimited. But, I have very little interest in collecting art from these titles - maybe a standalone piece (cover) here or there, but it's just not the same. Maybe the younger generation won't have the same hang-ups, but, given all the other interests that they've grown up with, it's hard to credibly believe that they'll be flocking to modern OA in greater numbers than Gen X and the Baby Boomers flocked to vintage OA.

 

I guess I should reiterate again that I don't view OA as an "investment". For me, it comes down to my love for certain books. If I love a book, I'll buy the comics, I'll buy the collections...and I'll buy the art.

 

I love comics as a medium, so I don't confine my reading to any particular period. Having been a continuous reader for 40 years, I'd say that the quality, on balance, is as strong as it's ever been. That's why I collect new art.

[delekkerste]

I just think there's a lot of guys like say Ethan Roberts (RIP ) for whom collecting is a part of who they are and something they can't really stop even if they wanted to. So I expect the tail to be longer than would otherwise make sense, but whatever , trying to predict the timing of things so far in the future (whether 10 years or 25) is hard at the best of times. I can understand you talking to prominent friends and concluding the cash will dry up, but intentions can change, and turnover of buyers (people becoming more and less active) is something that is always happening in the background. Where you can't get around it anymore is when all the would be buyers are retired and have a big drop in income. I think that's a ways out as Id say the average age is early 50s, but admittedly that's a total guess

 

Collecting no doubt runs deep in the blood of a lot of people in this hobby, but, at some point, people age and priorities change. More importantly, as you pointed out, incomes drop for almost everyone, so most people sell and downsize. And, if you're Doc Dave, you buy a Porsche, have a great time, and then find something less expensive than Frazettas to collect. As for Ethan, I saw him at shows, but didn't know him personally. I don't know enough about his situation to comment on how much he was buying/selling in recent years or what his plans for his collection were, but, I will say that I don't see too many 70-year olds at shows actively looking to buy art. I think he was probably more the exception than the rule in that regard. By 70, I think the number of people still actively buying like they did in their 20s to mid-50s will be dwarfed by the number of people who are already out of the hobby, those who are net sellers, those who are holding but no longer actively buying, and those who are still buying, but at a small fraction of their peak.

 

Over on the comic book side, look at billionaire hedge fund manager Marc Lasry*, for whom comics played a big role in his life, and who assembled an epic collection that was sold last month at Comic Connect. Obviously this is a guy who didn't need the money and was also a very serious collector. But, having reached his mid-50s and enjoyed the comics for many years, he decided that it was time to let other collectors enjoy the material. I suspect that we'll see a lot more sales in our hobby as people age into that mid-50s to mid-60s cohort, which seems more and more to empirically be a natural dropping off point - it's long enough to have enjoyed their collections for years/decades, but young enough where the money can still be enjoyed and put to good personal use for years to come.

 

Also, it's important to remember that, so many people get just as much or more satisfaction from the social interactions and friendships that are forged in this hobby as they do from buying, selling and owning the art itself. I think a lot of people when they hit that 55-65 age frame will realize that they can still get a lot out of the hobby even if they buy less, shift to collecting less expensive art, stop buying altogether, or even liquidating their collections. While anything can happen, my bet is that it won't take 25-30 years for buying & selling patterns to change dramatically in the hobby given the critical mass of collectors who are already in their 40s or older.

 

Speaking of which, for those who believe that there will be a next generation coming up in the numbers that would allow for a seamless transition (or even a continued boom) from today's current Gen X and Baby Boomer collectors, I would ask you this: what age group today represents the critical mass of collectors in the hobby? Now ask yourself this: what was that number 5 years ago? 10? 15? I'm pretty sure that number is growing along with the Gen X cohort and that it hasn't remained constant. I don't think it bodes well for 15 years from now, and it certainly won't for 25-30 years from now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Pre-emptive explanation for the comprehension-challenged living in Hong Kong: I never said that hedge fund managers and billionaires don't buy comics or comic art. I said that they don't buy comics or comic art just because they came into money, as they would, say, fine art, luxury automobiles and mega-mansions, or buy random things that they know nothing about on whims to impress their friends and such. On the other hand, those with a pre-existing interest in comics or comic art can and do collect some/more after they come into money.

[delekkerste]

I wouldn't say the art is "inferior". It's different. Art used to be twice-up...is later smaller art "inherently inferior"? Not necessarily; it's too much a blanket statement. And really, for fans of new comics, who only know new comics, THEY DON'T CARE that modern art doesn't look the same as a vintage page. They like what they like, they want what they want, and the fact that an older page from a comic they don't know has lettering, means very little. In much the same way a nostalgia collector won't care about anything new.

 

Fair point...to some extent. Smaller art IS inferior to twice-up art, all other things being equal. But, content is the great equalizer. Unfortunately, with modern art, the content is often inferior too - not just because of the lack of lettering and such, but because less happens on any given page. The combination of the two is deadly - if this medium is about the art of storytelling, you're getting no words and less of a sequential storytelling flow from most modern pages.

 

Furthermore, here's another big point: these newer books reach a much smaller audience than the older books did. So, the potential market/audience is a lot smaller from the outset. If you're a fan of the material, though, fair point: you don't care. But, what makes vintage so great is that so many people do care, and there is a thriving secondary market where many people collect the same things and there is a very liquid market compared to most other art & collectibles. Not so for Modern - collectors there are niche within a niche.

 

 

There is a lot of art being produced, no question. But as someone else has already pointed out, more and more of it is digital. The number of actual physical pages doesn't equal the number of comics on the stands.

 

True, but enough of it is physical pages that the point still holds. Just. look at all the pages in Artist Alley and the modern OA dealers (Splash Page, Cadence, etc.) - and that's just the tiny tip of the iceberg.

 

 

Also, the % which is truly collectible may be absolutely tiny...to you. For the right price, it's all collectible to someone. Anyway, whatever the definition is for "truly collectible", I doubt the % changes much for whatever period we're in for comics.

 

This I disagree with strongly. There's just too much of it. Yes, at $2/page, somebody's probably going to pick up just about any Modern page. But, at prevailing market prices, if you buy it, your chances of recouping your purchase price on any given Modern page is slim. My friend picked up a page from Ultimate DD & Elektra at a Baltimore con some years ago. Didn't have much happening on the page, but it was set at Columbia University, his alma mater. What are the chances that he could get his money back on that page now, ~10 years later? Who else is going to care? That's not "collectible" in my book.

 

At the last NYCC, I saw some pretty good artist (forget his name) in Artist Alley, who had gotten on some recent Marvel books. And, guess what - after working on some Marvel books for a couple of years, you accumulate literally hundreds of pages that are stacked on your table. What are those pages worth after you buy them from him? There's just so much of it that there's no real liquidity and no secondary market to speak of. It's a lot like most newer fine art - you'll never get your money out of it, maybe even not recoup anything more than a token amount.

 

That's NOT to discourage anyone from buying it. But, with 99.5% of Modern OA, it's a consumption purchase that you really have to write off almost completely (like 99.5% of fine art as well). And, that's fine, if people have no illusions about it. But, here's another thing: whether they admit it or not, a lot of vintage collectors love that prices go up. That there is a brisk secondary market. That they've made money with their collections. If you can't do that with 99.5% of Modern art, is there the same appeal? Even if there is, will people buy as much as they would vintage art where they know they'll be able to recoup most of their outlay (at least for now)?

 

I think the answer is an emphatic no.

 

I'll also second that, like yourself, I don't personally consider OA to be an investment and that I collect solely for fun, not profit. That said, even if I loved Modern books/OA more than vintage books/OA, there is no way I'd spend as much as I've spent on vintage art on Modern OA if vintage had the same supply/demand and lack of liquidity/secondary market characteristics as Modern has. Modern attracts a different breed of collector, either by choice or necessity. It's also why a thriving Modern market is unlikely to mean a bright future for vintage IMO.

[otherworldsj33]

Dealers, auction houses, and collectors. I bet Heritage with all their neatly stored and disseminated information base has a better idea then any one of us has as to what the future of the hobby may look like.

Maybe the Metro guys too. And others of course.

I have not been around much lately so I really have no accurate idea. Is there any one person, or a group out there who can compare notes and come up with fairly accurate population numbers, age demographics, financial wealth and collecting habits information as to what the OA hobby currently looks like?

Rather then just focusing the equation solely on longer term established older collectors who may be liquidating in the next 15 years, we'd get a much better idea of who may be coming up to replace them. And a more pinpoint prediction of how this may play out.

Although after saying all that, it does seem as if Genes forecast is more true then not.

[Nexus]

I ...feel that Modern OA is largely a mug's game.

A big part of the problem with modern OA that of entry point. Newer current artists are standing on the shoulders of vintage 'collectible' reputations and pricing, using that as a benchmark to position themselves, their 'market'.

 

So we know all about Capullo. There's threads, no need to re-hash. You can add Jim Lee and a host of other still living/active comic artists to this list too. They started producing and built their reputations during the heyday of comic art rising at a 45 degree angle over the last 25 years. Not who I'm talking about, there's a track record and a built in collector base that keeps this train rolling at sufficient speed (for now).

 

Yes, I agree with this. But you see it more with Big 2 superhero art, than you do with indie art.

 

Jim Lee and Greg Capullo have built-in fanbases at this point. At the same time, they don't really care if their art sells (at least that's what how it appears to me), so they can ask whatever they want. Either someone will pay their price, or they won't.

 

The guys I rep *want* to sell their art. So we have to be sensitive to the market. We don't slap astronomical price tags on the art waiting for that one right buyer to (hopefully) come along. We price to sell! And sell we do.

 

'm thinking more of Ian Bertram. As an example. (So NO I am not picking on Ian, Felix or their pricing model, figure the relatives skins are thick enough here to not cause a problem, just sayin'!) I like this guy's work. A lot. Saw some House of Penance posted on CAF this morning, reminded me of his work (again), and that I wanted to "do" something at some point there (= BUY!!) And then I got to the prices. And understand, I haven't read any of these books, don't know what's going on (no text on these), and in the case of HoP, it's a limited and done thing, right? (Meaning not Dr. Strange or whatever!) So the stuff that's a lot of fun to look at and excites my appreciate of Ian's skill...$250+. Forget about speculating, flipping down the road, all that...$250 as an entry point, well that buys a lot of things in the real world that "do" real things. Cheap lawn mower, hella nice coffee maker, service call to the electrician, plumber, a/c/heat guy, etc. That's what people outside comics think of first when it comes to $250. I'm inside and I still sorta back off. Not because $250 is the end of the world but it is competing with all the other vintage third-tier or not in costume art out there that does have some track record, some built-in following, can be let back out down the road for circa same money. Not sure about Bertram BoP though, I don't know what the aftermarket is and what the appreciation others have is (echo chamber = bad way to spend money on art!)

 

I don't mind you bringing up Ian at all! He's a beast! Bring up everyone I rep, !

 

Here's a listing of Ian's HOUSE OF PENANCE art from my site:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=578&Mag=HOUSE+OF+PENANCE&From=Title

 

As you can see, quite a fair amount of it has sold. The prices ranged from $150 to $2000. Now, $250/page may be too high for your liking, but YOU, by yourself, don't decide the market (no one does).

 

And I agree with you in that, in the real world, $250 can still buy a lot of practical things. But that's ultimately meaningless, here. Either you're a collector in this hobby, or you're not.

 

So is it a mug's game? Maybe not, but buy it to love it (but why a particular interior page out of many available of an indie title??) and consider the money lost. Sure. Assuming one even has $250 to burn on 'pure fun', xwhich is not a given in today's economy for those under 30 (35?!) Does anybody (a small handful aside) even "love" BoP at $250 to begin with? Is $250 the market price, or is the market being forced to pay that number or walk away? Just a gut but I'm feeling the eBay $0.99 start auction would end closer to $85-$100. Nice art, but not too much risk being taken on "fun" not paying out later.

 

This is your perspective and it's totally legitimate. I have no idea what the future will bring, value-wise, for HoP. Or ANY OTHER ART I SELL, for that matter. I NEVER tell people that the art they buy will go up. I hate that mess.

 

Anyway, you've seen how much has sold at the going rate, so you tell me if that's the market price or not. In any case, no one's being forced to do anything. Would the art sell for less on eBay? Very possibly. But that's true for everything, regardless of the era. And again, if that's what matters most to you or anyone, then don't buy.

 

I get that this is all real money. At some point, we all have to consider these things. I, along with most collectors in this hobby, can still "play" at the modern art level; YMMV.

 

All of this, not the math we had twenty, thirty years ago when "stuff" art was $20/page. And yes gas was $1.50/gal and we all made hella less (but we were teens/college, no resume, experience and not on salary either!) But median household wasn't too much lower than now (inflation adjusted) and household debt..was. There was likely more play money laying about. Ultimately it wasn't as hard to drop Friday night money on a page or two at a show, when it was $40-$60 total for two or three "stuffs" (of no particular anything, not covers et al). Don't know where you guys live, but in my area...Friday night money is not $250, it's about 25% of that. As much as I do like Bertram's BoP, it's not $50. I don't, at least today, love it for $250. At $50 I'd probably grab two or three...for fun and never look back. All fwiw...

 

Again, this is all very reasonable, and even responsible. This end of the hobby simply isn't for you. But whether you agree with them or not, there are plenty of collectors who just don't care as much about the $$$. Who just like the damn art, and can afford it.

 

This may blow your mind: As expensive as Ian's pages may seem to you at $250, his basic commissions run from $400-1000. Let's call the average $600. And his list always fills up. Those collectors KNOW that they're not likely to ever get that money back...and it doesn't matter. Just how it is out there.

 

[BCarter27]

I have not been around much lately so I really have no accurate idea. Is there any one person, or a group out there who can compare notes and come up with fairly accurate population numbers, age demographics, financial wealth and collecting habits information as to what the OA hobby currently looks like?

 

I would think Mark Hay, Felix, Essential Sequential, and the like would have a better handle on the modern OA collecting population. ComicLink skews the youngest out of the auction house (outside of ebay). ComicConnect and Heritage are getting the older, wealthier crowd.

[BCarter27]

About the museum donation thing... I don't know why this idea always rubs me the wrong way. Maybe the thought of so many pieces being out of play takes the fun out of the game and this is pure selfishness on my part. However, unless your art has some kind of social relevance (AF 15, GL GA drug issue, Ali vs. Superman, Crumb, Mad, Bechdel, etc.) I think there is a lot of hubris in thinking a museum/library/university would want it. They really aren't going to appreciate it the way your fellow collectors will. And it will probably just turn into a burden on the institution to be deaccessioned later. Meanwhile, we all will have to drive to the Univ of Toledo to see those What If and Blue Devil pages you donated!

 

[Bronty]

My thoughts exactly on that issue.

[vodou]

...The guys I rep *want* to sell their art. So we have to be sensitive to the market. We don't slap astronomical price tags on the art waiting for that one right buyer to (hopefully) come along. We price to sell! And sell we do.

 

'm thinking more of Ian Bertram. As an example. (So NO I am not picking on Ian, Felix or their pricing model, figure the relatives skins are thick enough here to not cause a problem, just sayin'!) I like this guy's work. A lot. Saw some House of Penance posted on CAF this morning, reminded me of his work (again), and that I wanted to "do" something at some point there (= BUY!!) And then I got to the prices. And understand, I haven't read any of these books, don't know what's going on (no text on these), and in the case of HoP, it's a limited and done thing, right? (Meaning not Dr. Strange or whatever!) So the stuff that's a lot of fun to look at and excites my appreciate of Ian's skill...$250+. Forget about speculating, flipping down the road, all that...$250 as an entry point, well that buys a lot of things in the real world that "do" real things. Cheap lawn mower, hella nice coffee maker, service call to the electrician, plumber, a/c/heat guy, etc. That's what people outside comics think of first when it comes to $250. I'm inside and I still sorta back off. Not because $250 is the end of the world but it is competing with all the other vintage third-tier or not in costume art out there that does have some track record, some built-in following, can be let back out down the road for circa same money. Not sure about Bertram BoP though, I don't know what the aftermarket is and what the appreciation others have is (echo chamber = bad way to spend money on art!)

 

I don't mind you bringing up Ian at all! He's a beast! Bring up everyone I rep, !

 

Here's a listing of Ian's HOUSE OF PENANCE art from my site:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=578&Mag=HOUSE+OF+PENANCE&From=Title

 

As you can see, quite a fair amount of it has sold. The prices ranged from $150 to $2000. Now, $250/page may be too high for your liking, but YOU, by yourself, don't decide the market (no one does).

 

And I agree with you in that, in the real world, $250 can still buy a lot of practical things. But that's ultimately meaningless, here. Either you're a collector in this hobby, or you're not.

 

So is it a mug's game? Maybe not, but buy it to love it (but why a particular interior page out of many available of an indie title??) and consider the money lost. Sure. Assuming one even has $250 to burn on 'pure fun', xwhich is not a given in today's economy for those under 30 (35?!) Does anybody (a small handful aside) even "love" BoP at $250 to begin with? Is $250 the market price, or is the market being forced to pay that number or walk away? Just a gut but I'm feeling the eBay $0.99 start auction would end closer to $85-$100. Nice art, but not too much risk being taken on "fun" not paying out later.

 

This is your perspective and it's totally legitimate. I have no idea what the future will bring, value-wise, for HoP. Or ANY OTHER ART I SELL, for that matter. I NEVER tell people that the art they buy will go up. I hate that mess.

 

Anyway, you've seen how much has sold at the going rate, so you tell me if that's the market price or not. In any case, no one's being forced to do anything. Would the art sell for less on eBay? Very possibly. But that's true for everything, regardless of the era. And again, if that's what matters most to you or anyone, then don't buy.

 

I get that this is all real money. At some point, we all have to consider these things. I, along with most collectors in this hobby, can still "play" at the modern art level; YMMV.

 

All of this, not the math we had twenty, thirty years ago when "stuff" art was $20/page. And yes gas was $1.50/gal and we all made hella less (but we were teens/college, no resume, experience and not on salary either!) But median household wasn't too much lower than now (inflation adjusted) and household debt..was. There was likely more play money laying about. Ultimately it wasn't as hard to drop Friday night money on a page or two at a show, when it was $40-$60 total for two or three "stuffs" (of no particular anything, not covers et al). Don't know where you guys live, but in my area...Friday night money is not $250, it's about 25% of that. As much as I do like Bertram's BoP, it's not $50. I don't, at least today, love it for $250. At $50 I'd probably grab two or three...for fun and never look back. All fwiw...

 

Again, this is all very reasonable, and even responsible. This end of the hobby simply isn't for you. But whether you agree with them or not, there are plenty of collectors who just don't care as much about the $$$. Who just like the damn art, and can afford it.

 

This may blow your mind: As expensive as Ian's pages may seem to you at $250, his basic commissions run from $400-1000. Let's call the average $600. And his list always fills up. Those collectors KNOW that they're not likely to ever get that money back...and it doesn't matter. Just how it is out there.

If it wasn't clear, all my comments were in the context of expanding the market. Your rebuttals appear to have missed that.

 

Putting that aside, I agree with what you've written at each point and the commission situation and prices don't bother me or blow my mind. Further everyone's disposal income and financial discipline is different. What $250 (and that's just a number, "anything under $150-$300, any modern artist" could easily be used instead) means to me isn't going to be the same for anybody else, specifically. But maybe in the aggregate it would be of use to figure out what $250 represents to most of today's market for this art and what it represents to most of tomorrow's market (assuming we can ever figure out "how" they will get here - that's a highly debatable subject at present!) This isn't about if the art is a good investment or how to pitch it that way, who do we flip to etc, it's about identifying your artist's current and future market and how best to serve their needs. (We do understand this modern comic art is a buyer's market, right? Nobody needs this stuff. But the artists -as you've stated- do need the art to sell, they need or at least would really like to have the money instead.)

 

Bertram is Bertam, feel free to insert any other modern comic artist at this price point though (that did not make their rep in the 90s or earlier). Here's we're talking about "price: market". And his art is not sold through, so to some extent there is still the case of each page needing to find that "One. Right. Buyer. @ $250 (or whatever)." There are many ways to market products, at one extreme is volume variety at low price ala Walmart, Target, or anybody selling widgets (Home Depot washers @ 15 cents per). The other is luxury goods, low volume at very high 'experience' (not utility) prices. It can anything on Avenue des Champs-Elysées or comic art. I don't know what your exact target is (somewhere in the middle?0, and I think it would be somewhat different for each artist (and their needs) too. The only thing we know for sure is (re: Bertram BoP art) the right buyers haven't been found for all pieces yet, inventory is stagnant (to an extent) maybe those buyers already exist but they just haven't found the site yet? Or maybe there is a pricing problem? Traditional luxury has various ways of dealing with stale/unsold inventory but I'm thinking these pieces will not be shredded in the back alley to make room for next season, right? So then there's discounting, which has it's own set of unappealing (re: marketing) characteristics for the artist and rep. What do I know, just spitballin' here...

 

And for god's sakes...Ian's BoP art is great, I don't think any of the above is a real problem anyway, just using him as an example of "his generation". It's very likely that I'm the only one with a $250 problem, because art that isn't strategic (carefully researched and considered cost:benefit)...I don't buy for more than play money. And $250 is not play money (to me). $250 to subset of other people that like/want the art? I have no idea.

[Nexus]

[Again, this is all very reasonable, and even responsible. This end of the hobby simply isn't for you. But whether you agree with them or not, there are plenty of collectors who just don't care as much about the $$$. Who just like the damn art, and can afford it.

 

As a follow-up, especially for those who don't know the modern art market, I began selling art from PAPER GIRLS last week. It's an indie drawn by Cliff Chiang and published by Image. It's definitely no Big 2 superhero book.

 

This is how the art sold:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=580&Mag=PAPER+GIRLS&From=Title

 

Average price was around $350 for pages (too high? artificial?). Even more than HOUSE OF PENANCE! Believe it or not, Voudou!

 

This week, I put up the first issue of a new comic called GOD COUNTRY. Again, an indie. And by two relatively new creators, who don't have near the track record of Brian K. Vaughan and Cliff Chiang.

 

This is how the art sold:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?Details=1&ArtistId=579&Mag=GOD+COUNTRY

 

Around $250/page.

 

I have no doubt that some are buying for speculation, especially for a #1 issue. I don't encourage it-- in fact, I strongly DISCOURAGE it-- but it's a reality and people are going to make their own choices. Still, I would say there's less of that going on here than some may think; I do get the sense that most of these buyers simply are fans of the books.

 

I'm not saying in any way that there will a thriving aftermarket later, or that this will have any impact on any other segment of the hobby, or any other prediction for the future. Just pointing out that, for now, new collectors are buying, and they don't necessarily have the same motivations for doing so as older collectors. It's akin to buying an expensive Absolute collection (or similar)...no one ever expects to get their money back out of it, they buy it because it's a high-end representation of a favorite title.

 

Here's another example I've brought up before, but worth bringing up again, as I bet most here have never read it, if they even know it. It's Bryan Lee O'Malley's SCOTT PILGRIM series, which has become a touchstone book for that generation. I don't think I sold a single page to any of you here (you're all too old:P). Yet, this is how it's been selling to everyone else out there (for all six volumes):

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM%27S+PRECIOUS+LITTLE+LIFE&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+VS%2E+THE+WORLD&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+AND+THE+INFINITE+SADNESS&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+GETS+IT+TOGETHER&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+VS%2E+THE+UNIVERSE&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM%27S+FINEST+HOUR&From=Title

 

This is from the last couple of years, I had already cleaned off the pages that sold before that.

 

So yeah, new art is selling. And to a much more diverse audience than what makes up this board.

[SquareChaos]

[Again, this is all very reasonable, and even responsible. This end of the hobby simply isn't for you. But whether you agree with them or not, there are plenty of collectors who just don't care as much about the $$$. Who just like the damn art, and can afford it.

 

As a follow-up, especially for those who don't know the modern art market, I began selling art from PAPER GIRLS last week. It's an indie drawn by Cliff Chiang and published by Image. It's definitely no Big 2 superhero book.

 

This is how the art sold:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=580&Mag=PAPER+GIRLS&From=Title

 

Average price was around $350 for pages (too high? artificial?). Even more than HOUSE OF PENANCE! Believe it or not, Voudou!

 

This week, I put up the first issue of a new comic called GOD COUNTRY. Again, an indie. And by two relatively new creators, who don't have near the track record of Brian K. Vaughan and Cliff Chiang.

 

This is how the art sold:

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?Details=1&ArtistId=579&Mag=GOD+COUNTRY

 

Around $250/page.

 

I have no doubt that some are buying for speculation, especially for a #1 issue. I don't encourage it-- in fact, I strongly DISCOURAGE it-- but it's a reality and people are going to make their own choices. Still, I would say there's less of that going on here than some may think; I do get the sense that most of these buyers simply are fans of the books.

 

I'm not saying in any way that there will a thriving aftermarket later, or that this will have any impact on any other segment of the hobby, or any other prediction for the future. Just pointing out that, for now, new collectors are buying, and they don't necessarily have the same motivations for doing so as older collectors. It's akin to buying an expensive Absolute collection (or similar)...no one ever expects to get their money back out of it, they buy it because it's a high-end representation of a favorite title.

 

Here's another example I've brought up before, but worth bringing up again, as I bet most here have never read it, if they even know it. It's Bryan Lee O'Malley's SCOTT PILGRIM series, which has become a touchstone book for that generation. I don't think I sold a single page to any of you here (you're all too old:P). Yet, this is how it's been selling to everyone else out there (for all six volumes):

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM%27S+PRECIOUS+LITTLE+LIFE&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+VS%2E+THE+WORLD&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+AND+THE+INFINITE+SADNESS&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+GETS+IT+TOGETHER&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM+VS%2E+THE+UNIVERSE&From=Title

 

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=572&Mag=SCOTT+PILGRIM%27S+FINEST+HOUR&From=Title

 

This is from the last couple of years, I had already cleaned off the pages that sold before that.

 

So yeah, new art is selling. And to a much more diverse audience than what makes up this board.

 

Felix, I've always wondered this, but are there a lot of instances of a handful of buyers swooping in on these books and buying a bunch of the pages? Or do you see a lot of different buyers at one page apiece?

 

Not that we have any right to your data, but I've always been curious. I often visit your site, I think you rep a lot of great artists, but I also find myself wondering (if it's a bunch of people buying single pages) who the hell these people are and where they are.

[vodou]

...who the hell these people are and where they are.

And why aren't they on this Board? Assuming they skew younger...shouldn't they be even more plugged in than older, stodgier generations? Or are they not younger? Or is this Board "lame" to them for some reason (too many "old" guys around?!)

 

Additional question (if Felix is answering any of these): are the majority "one order buyers" (of whatever size) or repeat customers returning again and again at approximately the same spend in each instance, over time?

[BCarter27]

At the last NYCC, I saw some pretty good artist (forget his name) in Artist Alley, who had gotten on some recent Marvel books. And, guess what - after working on some Marvel books for a couple of years, you accumulate literally hundreds of pages that are stacked on your table. What are those pages worth after you buy them from him? There's just so much of it that there's no real liquidity and no secondary market to speak of. It's a lot like most newer fine art - you'll never get your money out of it, maybe even not recoup anything more than a token amount.

 

You do see this a lot, but this is where a rep is needed to push those issues out the door as they come in... building the artist's market while the iron is hot.

 

Of course, a lot of this depends on the quality of the artist and the book's profile/sales too.

 

I think the thing about the vintage market is that a cherry-picking of sorts has already happened because we only see a fraction of it. Gobs of bad to mediocre stuff -- from even after the Big Two started handing art back -- must have been thrown away by the artists or their heirs. Or maybe I am wrong and it's all just sitting in closets somewhere.

 

I have a few artists from the Copper era that I lust after and I can't possibly fathom where all of the art from their 20-30 year career went. It was either destroyed or just sold off piecemeal over the years. I seriously doubt there are collectors hoarding hundreds of pages, but who knows? Prices were so cheap back then. I guess it's possible. But it's more likely that there are just a silent majority of "soft" OA collectors out there sitting on 1-2 pages. That "dark matter" of OA collectors and their heirs might inadvertently prop up prices longer than we expect... even after all of the BSDs and known dealers cash out.

 

Speaking of dealers, how are the major ones planning to close out? Will the business stay in the family, be sold off to a competitor, or inventory liquidated in progressive sales? Anyone know of any future plans? How have some of the retired, past dealers closed out?

[BCarter27]

...who the hell these people are and where they are.

And why aren't they on this Board? Assuming they skew younger...shouldn't they be even more plugged in than older, stodgier generations? Or are they not younger? Or is this Board "lame" to them for some reason (too many "old" guys around?!)

 

This board is awesome, but it is the equivalent of "going deep". That's why something like a Tumblr feed or iTunes podcast about OA will be much more accessible to the younger and or newer and or casual collector.

 

And everyone on here is a stodgy old fart with their own lingo, inside jokes, and agenda. :-)

[vodou]

...but it is the equivalent of "going deep".

Hahaha and that is exactly what's wrong with this whole new generation of ayeholes coming up