With technology scattering pop culture like never before... 1 1

[delekkerste]

And from now on you will always look like this in my mind's eye when I read your posts:

[Bronty]

I refute that notion as well. All of this is irrelevant in my view. This whole discussion is about demographics at its core, and storytelling doesn't change demographics.

 

You think the OA from the whole era is a turd, I think that's irrelevant, but either way there won't be as many readers to turn into collectors to support it all, at some point

[Nexus]

Just kidding around;)

 

As I've said before, and just repeated, ideally, OA would include the intended word balloons (McSpidey notwithstanding).

 

I don't agree, however, that older art has a better "middle class" as LEGIONISMYNAME believes, and that that art is always going to be better than ANY modern art, because it's got lettering, compressed storytelling, et al.

 

And ultimately, if quality is equal, and the older page has lettering, and the newer page doesn't, the new reader will still want what's familiar to him. The fact that there are these differences in how the art has been created across eras, only really matters to those of use who have collected over these eras. The new guy, who only knows about new books, and is only interested in new art, doesn't care.

 

I just don't agree with imposing our values on collectors of new art, or on the art itself, for that matter. Our rules don't apply here.

 

 

hmm, where did I say that? I never said ANY Modern OA will be inferior to ANY BA art. That's patently ridiculous.

 

modern art is inherently an inferior object compared to GA/SA/BA/CA art-

 

Modern art is BORING

 

That's what I mean by soulless. It's just *spoon*.

 

 

This is what I said, which echoes what Gene has said as well:

 

Basically, older art has a larger "middle class" of good art.

 

And how do you define "good"? What you mean is that older art has more people who are nostalgic for it.

 

They're nostalgic for it because they read the comics as kids. Not because the art itself has word balloons, compressed storylines, no blue inks, etc.

 

If modern art proves not to be as collectible, it won't be because the art doesn't look like the more collectible older art, it will be because the conditions of comics fandom has changed.

 

You seem to be making two points into one. I agree with one, not the other.

 

And you sidestep Eric pointing out that your argument is really limited to Marvel/DC. If your points ARE limited to Marvel/DC, I would have less objection. I just don't believe you know what you're talking about when it comes to non-Big Two, especially non-Big Two moderns.

[SquareChaos]

Again, I like a lot of Modern comics. I don't agree, however, that most of the writing and art is better than in the old days, though, because it's not just about the visuals and the fact that comics are more "cinematic" these days or look like they took longer to draw.

 

Case in point: I recently read Jim Starlin's "The Death of Captain Marvel" for the first time. It's not decompressed. It's not cinematic. The art is not hyper-detailed. There are not great posed, splashy shots with OA after-market sales in mind. The latest artistic tools and storytelling techniques are not used. But, damn if that isn't one of the greatest things ever written in comics. All in one issue (albeit a longer Marvel Graphic Novel). Didn't need 132 pages. Tons of emotion dripping off of each packed page. Absolutely masterful. Yes, it's a shame that the originals are so marker-heavy, but, my point is that the writing and art were so great. Different than today's (allegedly superior according to some) standards. But so memorable. So emotional. So impactful. A meaningful and historic piece of comic history that is still fondly remembered and admired decades later, not just a well-written story that's here today and gone tomorrow like Chinese take-out.

 

You can tell a great story in compressed or decompressed format. The notion that everything is always progressing and improving upon what came before is an imperfect analogy when it comes to the arts. This isn't athletics. Shakespeare wasn't just good for his time, he's still in the Literary Hall of Fame. Similarly, Rembrandt and Picasso have not been surpassed by modern artists just because the latter are working with the latest techniques and many are technically skilled at the highest level - there is more to great comic art and storytelling than that. I agree that there's a lot of great talent working in comics today; I just wish the physical OA itself captured more of it. But, I do love reading a lot of what is being published these days!

 

Man, it's hard to keep up with this thread, it's like a second, more enjoyable job!

 

I just wanted to add a quick point in response to your frequent comments that modern comics are typically unsatisfying after consumption.

 

Modern books exist that have a strong emotional impact. Sadly, I don't think you'll find many of them from Marvel or DC. The problem on display here isn't the different art techniques used to produce the books, its the fact that you're reading books about intellectual property first, and characters second. I've said this previously, maybe even in this thread, but the Big Two product is, primarily, soulless. To my somewhat jaded eyes, it tends to read as if it were written by a focus group, and I don't care how great the art is, I likely won't form any emotional attachments to something like that.

[Nexus]

I'm picturing a modern page. Clean, perfect condition, no oil stains, no white out, no ugly margin notes. Obviously all modern art is better than all vintage art as a result. Thus endeth the lesson

 

24-year old collector receives his "vintage" art purchased off eBay in the mail: "Cool, word balloons. Wait. Why are are half of them peeling off? This one just fell off. Oh man, why are the panels all yellow? I wish the seller had written in the description that these paste-ups were falling off. So do I glue them back on? Is that allowed? Do I use Elmer's glue? Where do I buy rice paste? Do I hire a professional? How much would that cost? Where do I find a professional? Is this conservation or alternation? If I leave it as is, does it affect the value of my art? If I paste the balloons back on, does it affect the value of my art? Do I have to come clean about it or will the Boards tar and feather me if I don't? Oh. I knew I should have bought that wordless Manhattan Projects page."

 

 

 

this happens to be hanging in my room, I chose it at random because I liked the inking. Do you see any yellowed, peeling word balloons here? No you don't because Aparo lettered it himself, right there on the art.

 

 

 

I will concede however, that I've passed on many a page where the pasted on word balloons were all yellow, and it really detracted from the page. One of the reason I've never really coveted covers is because they are often the most likely OA to have stats, glue, corrections, tape, stains, discoloration, etc.

 

Nice page! REALLY nice page!

 

I see your BA DC page...and raise you a modern indie page:

 

 

OMG, a modern page with word balloons! They exist!

 

Now, do I like that the word balloons are on this page? Yes! But would I still want the page if there was no lettering? YES!

 

And for any modern page that doesn't have lettering, if it's important enough to me to have it, I'LL GET AN OVERLAY MADE. As others have been pointing out! Not hard!

 

It's like you guys have never heard of overlays before...

[Nexus]

I've read every post in this thread top to bottom, and wanted to add that I think there's a ton of insight to be had from everyone participating, for anybody taking the time to read all of it. I wouldn't completely discount anything that's been said actually. There's a merit to all of it, and we can all recognize this to differing degrees, and ultimately it's all good food for thought.

 

Gene's points about the early story compression giving the occasional single page the maximum number of elements/artifacts, touchstones whatever you want to call them is fair, and understandable. Who as a serious collector doesn't often want what feels like captured lightning in a bottle? The essence of a particular book hanging on the wall for all to see. The one that OTHER lovers of a book will see and covet and bow down to? A totem of sorts, that we are able to see and feel and understand as closely to our nostalgia as the original art will take us? I dare say we are all susceptible to that pang and pull, no matter what we are into.

 

What I think is interesting is that, despite not being interested or far less interested in the OA, many will also concede that there are modern books that are as good or better than their vintage counterparts. Better art. Better storytelling. Sometimes both.

 

Who wouldn't want to own some of THAT? I get it some don't, but it doesn't compute for me personally.

 

What I see in modern OA is that some of it really is better than the issues of books I read as a kid. I want a piece of that too. I love comic OA. I just do. I am a fan of the medium. I love seeing original pages from books I know nothing about, just because I can easily admire and respect the work, even the stuff I don't want to own or collect personally.

 

And maybe it's naive and altruistic of me to say that I still enjoy supporting a medium that has given me so much joy over the decades since finding my first OA page, (and the atom bomb of recognition of the stuff being available that it represented.)

 

In a way, anyone that buys modern OA is continuing on as a patron of the form. I welcome that from any and all. Even if it means competition (or eventually less of it as people bow out). I like buying pieces directly from artists (or their reps) because I want to show those creators that I appreciate what they do, and to give them financial encouragement to continue to push the boundaries of the form. I LOVE comic art. I love people that love comic art. Paradoxically I love that much of the world doesn't love comic art. Maybe that's my old punk rock spirit showing? But it's also true. It's a club of sorts. A tribe.

 

Sure, the new pages don't have the text balloons. Neither did most of my painted pages from the 90s. Some occasionally came with the letterers white overlay on tissue paper, but many did not. I bought them anyway. And the stuff I hung, I put clear overlays on a floating layer above the OA in the frame when I felt like I wanted it there.

 

I eventually got over that though. A personal choice. But I could add bubbles to overlays again if I felt the need. It wouldn't take away that the page is a great book from a great story. That fact would still be true sans-bubbles. I'd just have to do the legwork. People don't seem to have a problem doing that legwork on vintage pieces when it suits them.

Though it is important if selling a piece, to note that the overlay is not original from the process, so all is on the up and up.

 

I'll use Sandman as an example, because it was a bridge of the period. My first Sandman page was hand lettered. My last Sandman page was stat lettering, glued to the board. So technically, that board doesn't have the lettering "on it". But it's present. And I like that it's there. I really do. But I'd have bought it anyway, had it not been. Why? Because I love Sandman. The Zulli pencil pages from the last arc? Lettered on tissue overlays. You had to remove them to actually see the delicate pencils properly. All perfectly acceptable in my little world of OA.

 

I see reading new stories as making new "nostalgia" points in my life. In my 40s now, I look back on my 20s and they were very different. And books like Stray Bullets and Madman, and Sandman, etc. I have a large amount of nostalgia for those times. Yet I wasn't 10 years old. I don't need that kiddie connection for the nostalgia to exist. But it is different in the kind of material that I carry as adult nostalgia. Its the kind of material I can enjoy as an adult. I don't mean dirty pictures, I mean intellectually.

 

I don't need new art to be created the way I want it to be, for it to capture my interest. I accept the art form for what it is, and what may lack in it's current state. Would it be nice if the books were still lettered on the page? Sometimes, yeah. But I'll take them as they are vs not having them at all (i.e. digital, etc.)

 

Having a piece of a great book is still lighting in a bottle for me.

For someone else, perhaps those missing elements are just a bridge too far?

 

I treat buying modern OA the same as I did when I started. It's a disposable enjoyment. The glee I get from looking at a piece produced by a creator that I admire far outweighs the few hundred dollars I've spent on the occasional panel page.

 

As far as I'm concerned, most of it is still fairly affordable. I bought a couple pages this year that were $150. That's what I spent on my first Sandman page 20+ years ago. I never thought that Sandman page would get the offers I have PMd to me all the time through CAF. And really I could care less about those offers. I love that art. I never wanted the pages to go up so much. I didn't expect it would then, and I don't expect my new OA to go up either. And they may not. But again, when I get a charge out of seeing that OA? It's worth it every time. I've spent 5 figures for that charge before, knowing much of that could go up in smoke if I sold it. But the thrill, in my lifetime, life is to short to not enjoy these small pleasures that add up so much day to day. It's why I frame and live with so much of my collection daily.

 

IMO if it's great art, from a great story, I'm supporting a great book. I can't fault that in any way, text or no.

Maybe in 10 years time no one will give any about my pages. Or maybe in retrospect the pages will be from something perceived as the next Dark Knight? A paradigm shift in the field could come at any point, even through a fractured market. If a book is brilliant, people will find it eventually. Look at Walking Dead and it's numbers. And I dare say it's a good book, and at times a great book But never a truly brilliant one. But I think a brilliant use of the medium could come along. Truly. And it may not have lettering on the pages.

 

People always say these things can't happen or will never happen. Until they do. Or don't.

I wouldn't ever speculate on this stuff, but it really does always come back to the old adage we all repeat over and over again. Buy what you love. That simple. Always has been.

 

Those of us who can't love Modern OA, for whatever hangups we carry, it's not for us. And that's OK.

 

But I remember a time when people thrashed Kelley Jones for his style on Batman, and lamented how it sucked compared to Adams. And similarly again the love it/hate it style of Tim Sale. There are still people who can't stand his Batman work. But I've seen both go from cult figures to gaining very large acceptance as people grew to enjoy their work, and even long for it nostalgically. I mean for gods sake, Liefeld has a following again. And believe me it's not the word bubbles or his compressed storytelling driving that market. Compressed waists, cheeks and good taste, maybe but... it's still fun.

 

I'm not ready to rule out the acceptance of modern OA over the next decade. As for it's ultimate sustainability beyond? Most all comic art will fall by the wayside eventually, and the stuff from the past we think is important today may be a mere blip compared to something that becomes a phenomenon in the meantime. We might all be thinking Dark Knight, and it turns out to be WD or Scott Pilgrim. Or Blankets getting taught in schools, or who knows?

 

But the rest will largely be landfill fodder and be propped up against walls in antique stores with photos of someones long dead grandparents, and some bronze doodad that was fashionable for a time.

I don't see a way around that larger scenario. It's bound to happen.

 

But barring global catastrophe, just as there are still collectors of Williamson's Secret Agent X9 strip art today, there will still be some 30-something year old guy out there looking for Tradd Moore's Strode pages because they dig it. Even if they didn't get to read it in the original funny pages. Maybe it was in digicopies on Uncle Bill's holopad, and they fell in love with it. Or it was from seeing the Luther Strode 3: The Legacy movie or playing some video game with old-timey characters like Luther as a hidden bonus feature?

 

No, not a ton of comic readers are kids. But I know a bunch who are. The future of comics may be smaller, but it doesn't mean the few that get involved will love it any less.

 

Sorry, I totally started rambling off the road again! I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere when I started.

 

Another winner!

 

Thanks for, again, doing a better (and more diplomatic!) job of communicating what I've been trying to say! Really what most, if not all, of us have been trying to say.

 

In the end, we all like what we like. Again, no point in trying to impose our values on others. Beauty in the eye of the beholder, and all that.

 

[SquareChaos]

 

In the end, we all like what we like. Again, no point in trying to impose our values on others. Beauty in the eye of the beholder, and all that.

 

True to a point, but this is pop culture right? There most be a broad base of appeal for the market as we know it to continue at relatively the same pace.

[Nexus]

Omg thank you. It's hard to break past the "this 70s hack (artist or writer) was a genius because I am familiar with him mindset".

 

Lots of high value art isn't that great when you strip away context so discussing the art's collectibility solely on its artistic merits or storytelling style misses the point.

Really deserving of a whole different thread, but yeah the 70s decade of comics and art, mostly sucked @ss. It's only nostalgia for those unlucky enough to be a young teen in those years that props the art up today (of course painting with a big brush here...there are probably a handful of exceptions).

 

My decade is the 80s, and I'm not sure I can strip my nostalgia back either...but the art sure seems prettier and lighter overall, less cluttered with massive dialogue boxes and heavyhanded inking (Chan's Conan over Buscema aside!)

 

That's kind of my point. As much as I like having lettering on the art, let's face it, a lot of comics writing is total drivel. Not necessarily missing anything when it's not there, either.

 

I'd point to certain eras being worse than others, too, but as has been stated, every era has its fair share of .

[delekkerste]

Somebody needs to start a Richard Dragon, Kung-Fu Fighter Art Appreciation Thread.

[Nexus]

Kidding and poking fun, but serious too... if we are going to use the old metrics then it's worth mentioning that even with the dialogue and trade dress taken away, modern covers are often the 'perfect shot' that yesterday's collector would want.

 

Yes, if we are strictly evaluating the art on aesthetics alone. But so much more to consider, including nostalgia...which, in the thread, is the greatest variable of all. I'm just not sure how many realize it, or will admit it?

In the face of the Baby Boomer Generation of Big Two OA heading toward the graveyard ...perhaps this is the lifeline for both vintage and modern comic art maintaining (and maybe even growing fanbase/demand and thus prices) - an aesthetic/critical approach to sequential art appreciation that's appealing to the masses, all the closet art fans and art school students that may not know they would buy an comic OA one day for all the reasons stated so far...but they would based solely on "art form" (so not strictly a page out of sequence due to the "action", iconic storyline moment or in-costume aspects)...how genius the sequentiality of it is? Maybe..

 

Of course if this does happen, understand that the deck would be greatly re-shuffled as to what's "hot" and what's "not", with significant price adjustments to follow (e.g. goodbye Wolverine on cover premium!)

 

There's a chance. There are academics who are making this attempt at study. Similar to film studies. I find it fascinating. Now, the odds of it breaking through to our market...negligible. At least in our lifetimes. Further down the line? Who knows? I'd love for it to happen.

 

I posted a link to an article on the Lucas Museum a couple of days ago. Interestingly, it listed FUN HOME as a recent OA acquisition. Not superhero, no action, certainly not "hot". But they still deemed it worthy for potential display.

 

Circling back to the point that there's more to comics than Big Two capes-and-tights.

[eewwnuk]

i thought people mainly collected art for the art and not the word balloons?

 

give me an iconic batman image over a talking word balloon Alfred and commissioner Gordon page any day!

[Bronty]

Somebody needs to start a Richard Dragon, Kung-Fu Fighter Art Appreciation Thread.

 

YES!! Go right ahead Classics like this! No modern cover could compare!

 

 

 

[Eric Seffinga]

oh mama...

[Nexus]

I think there is still going to be key, impactful and sought after modern OA work, but they are very few and far between. You can probably count on both hands the work that people will care about in the future.

Hasn't the 'modern' version of sequential storytelling been around long enough for some to rise to the top? What's hot in comics, in OA from fifteen years ago that's 'modern' in form? I'm asking because I don't know and am curious! (And maybe looking for something good to read in tpb anyway that isn't Big Two same old same old.)

 

The Definitive “Best Comics of the Decade” (2000-2009) Master List.

 

THE DETAILS:

• Compiled from over 60 “Best of the Decade” lists.

• Only those books that made at least 5 lists are included on the master list. Organized by number of mentions

• Limited to comics books and graphic novels released between 2000-2009. 38 comics in all.

 

THE LIST:

 

https://hudsonphillips.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/best-comics-of-the-decade/

 

I'll point out that of the 38 comics on the list, only 10 are Big 2 superhero books.

Thanks. Catching up here on 54 unreads in this thread, haven't actually clicked link yet, but the second part of my question was: "in OA", has any of the OA from that list also "risen to the top"? (I do not know, not territory I'm familiar with, I am not poking the bear here!)

 

Don't know what counts as "risen to the top", but every single one of the 38 books listed is collectible as OA.

 

Not all of it is available, and the audience size varies, but none of it is what I could consider "cheap".

 

Just going down the list...

 

1. YTLM: Pages sell very well. Even the ones without lettering. The most in-demand can command up to five figures. Not covers...pages.

 

2. (tie) ALL-STAR SUPERMAN: Pages sell great. Despite being pencil-only and no lettering.

 

2. (tie) SCOTT PILGRIM: See my earlier post. I've sold several hundred pages in the last couple of years.

 

4. BLANKETS...WTF is BLANKETS, you ask? Check out this eBay auction from 2012:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blankets-by-Craig-Thompson-Original-Cover-Art-/281018003578?afsrc=1&nma=true&si=ldr4RT6KSQCcDRB0hm0KB1bb3TA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

$21K+ for a cover. And not even THE cover, mind you, but a cover to a later edition.

 

Keep going down...FABLES...WALKING DEAD...NEW FRONTIER...all in demand.

 

Chris Ware JIMMY CORRIGAN art just sold for $38K at the last HA auction.

 

And on and on.

 

Yeah, all modern art is no one could possibly want.

 

 

[vodou]

From a 2006 Scoop! interview: GP: Well, "de lekkerste" is...

I know I was playing KK for a moment there, sorry it went over your head

[Nexus]

Really deserving of a whole different thread, but yeah the 70s decade of comics and art, mostly sucked @ss. It's only nostalgia for those unlucky enough to be a young teen in those years that props the art up today

 

And with that...Vodou is dead to me.

 

And you are..? WTF is a delekkste anyway (sounds like delicatessen to me?) and why is he wearing a privileged white guy mask?! (right back atcha baby )

 

"Delicatessen"...weak.

 

"Delikkerstore"...strong.

 

(We gotta get Lambert posting here again!)

[vodou]

That's a Lambert? Definitely better of the two. Must have missed it somewhere in the years I was barely in the hobby, I only remember the KK one ha ha.

[BCarter27]

Somebody needs to start a Richard Dragon, Kung-Fu Fighter Art Appreciation Thread.

 

First appearance of Lady Shiva in #5! Got my copy signed by Denny O'Neil. Wish I could've gotten those pages that popped up recently from Richard Dragon.

 

 

[delekkerste]

Chris Ware JIMMY CORRIGAN art just sold for $38K at the last HA auction.

 

Yeah, but those Jimmy Corrigan pieces are very much created in the pre-digital manner - pen & ink on large size board, much like Sunday strip art. Not exactly representative of typical modern OA. Plus, given the dates of creation and publication, it barely qualifies for a Best of the 2000s list. It's kind of like calling The Clash's "London Calling" the best album of the '80s (great album, but was created and released in 1979 and has as much in common with late '70s music as early '80s). Heritage says the Jimmy Corrigan example was from the '90s (pre-digital era).

 

A Jimmy Corrigan strip without the words would present terribly IMO (as would almost all strip art). Even moreso than comic books, it's more about the writing than the quality of the art. No one is microanalyzing Jimmy Corrigan panels for evidence of Chris Ware's "confident line" or "lush brushwork". :doh: The writing/text is absolutely integral.

 

 

Yeah, modern art is all no one could possibly want.

 

Well, this is supposedly a list of the best of the best of the best of the best, no?

[Nexus]

Chris Ware JIMMY CORRIGAN art just sold for $38K at the last HA auction.

 

Yeah, but those Jimmy Corrigan pieces are very much created in the pre-digital manner - pen & ink on large size board, much like Sunday strip art. Not exactly representative of typical modern OA.

 

 

Very conveniently omitting YTLM, ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, SCOTT PILGRIM, BLANKETS, et al.

 

Throw out JC if you like. But don't ignore the rest.