With technology scattering pop culture like never before... 1 1

[Nexus]

If it wasn't clear, all my comments were in the context of expanding the market. Your rebuttals appear to have missed that.

 

Ah, OK. In that case, then no, I don't believe $250 represents any barrier to expanding the market.

 

As for serving the artist...absolutely, I always consider the artist's market, including his future market. At the same time, I want to treat collectors fairly, too. No one's expressed any complaints to me so far. I'm not perfect, but I work hard. I think the artists, and most collectors, appreciate that, at least.

[Nexus]

Felix, I've always wondered this, but are there a lot of instances of a handful of buyers swooping in on these books and buying a bunch of the pages? Or do you see a lot of different buyers at one page apiece?

 

Not that we have any right to your data, but I've always been curious. I often visit your site, I think you rep a lot of great artists, but I also find myself wondering (if it's a bunch of people buying single pages) who the hell these people are and where they are.

 

I have sold issues complete, but for the most part, it's one page at a time. Sometimes a buyer will pick up multiple pieces, say 2 or 3, but I would estimate that 90% of the transactions are for single pages. This is a blue-collar gig!

 

As who these people are, and where they are...I would say that a good percentage (let's say 50%) are not dedicated CAF types. They're just casual, maybe even impulse, buyers. I don't see them moving up to five-figure art.

 

I strongly suspect most are on the younger side, which to me means 20's and 30's. There are a LOT more women that I would have guessed coming into this. And there are also a LOT of international buyers.

 

When I did the first Bryan Lee O'Malley sale in 2014, I put up 100 pieces. Every single one sold. I took a picture of the outgoing packages, with domestic stacked on one side, and international on the other. It was even.

 

I did another sale a month later (also a sell-out)...same thing.

 

Big surprise to me at the time, but now I've become used to it.

[vodou]

If it wasn't clear, all my comments were in the context of expanding the market. Your rebuttals appear to have missed that.

 

Ah, OK. In that case, then no, I don't believe $250 represents any barrier to expanding the market.

 

As for serving the artist...absolutely, I always consider the artist's market, including his future market. At the same time, I want to treat collectors fairly, too. No one's expressed any complaints to me so far. I'm not perfect, but I work hard. I think the artists, and most collectors, appreciate that, at least.

"Either you're a collector in this hobby, or you're not." Statements like this, not so expansive. And I suspect you may never know how many customers liked what they saw but turned away for price (or competing calls on the same $), you'll only know about those that didn't. For that matter, forget the money for a moment but...was I on your radar as being interested in Ian's art. I mean, before I said I was

[BCarter27]

So yeah, new art is selling. And to a much more diverse audience than what makes up this board.

 

These are the "dark matter" collectors I was referring to. The "soft" or "casual" collectors who have bought art like this since the early 80s and will likely keep doing so in the same manner until digital production really dries up the supply for good.

 

As for pen and ink recreations of digital pages, that's very interesting. Though they are just that to me... recreations. However, if they are all that is available, I might consider them. But given the choice between a one-off recreation of a digital page and a one-off print of the published digital page, I am not sure. I might go with the recreation since hands touched paper. I'd have to think about that.

 

But modern OA collectors will have to come to terms with questions like these. We are already seeing it with the pencils vs blueline inks. (Btw, sell me all of your worthless blueline ink pages. I can't see those much-preferred pencil pages on my wall from 5 feet away!)

[vodou]

As who these people are, and where they are...

Great data. Interesting too. Thanks for sharing!

[SquareChaos]

Felix, I've always wondered this, but are there a lot of instances of a handful of buyers swooping in on these books and buying a bunch of the pages? Or do you see a lot of different buyers at one page apiece?

 

Not that we have any right to your data, but I've always been curious. I often visit your site, I think you rep a lot of great artists, but I also find myself wondering (if it's a bunch of people buying single pages) who the hell these people are and where they are.

 

I have sold issues complete, but for the most part, it's one page at a time. Sometimes a buyer will pick up multiple pieces, say 2 or 3, but I would estimate that 90% of the transactions are for single pages. This is a blue-collar gig!

 

As who these people are, and where they are...I would say that a good percentage (let's say 50%) are not dedicated CAF types. They're just casual, maybe even impulse, buyers. I don't see them moving up to five-figure art.

 

I strongly suspect most are on the younger side, which to me means 20's and 30's. There are a LOT more women that I would have guessed coming into this. And there are also a LOT of international buyers.

 

When I did the first Bryan Lee O'Malley sale in 2014, I put up 100 pieces. Every single one sold. I took a picture of the outgoing packages, with domestic stacked on one side, and international on the other. It was even.

 

I did another sale a month later (also a sell-out)...same thing.

 

Big surprise to me at the time, but now I've become used to it.

 

Very interesting, but honestly not surprising to me - not even the overseas bit, especially when talking about Scott Pilgrim specifically.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[BCarter27]

I have sold issues complete, but for the most part, it's one page at a time. Sometimes a buyer will pick up multiple pieces, say 2 or 3, but I would estimate that 90% of the transactions are for single pages. This is a blue-collar gig!

...

...

 

I did another sale a month later (also a sell-out)...same thing.

 

Big surprise to me at the time, but now I've become used to it.

 

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that data. I think it puts a lot of questions to bed, and I would love to hear other modern OA reps weigh in on the same questions.

[Nexus]

I think the thing about the vintage market is that a cherry-picking of sorts has already happened because we only see a fraction of it. Gobs of bad to mediocre stuff -- from even after the Big Two started handing art back -- must have been thrown away by the artists or their heirs. Or maybe I am wrong and it's all just sitting in closets somewhere.

 

This is kind of what I was getting at with Gene's "% of truly collectible". My take is that whatever era we're talking about, the % of A/B/C-quality art will be similar. If "truly collectible" refers to A-quality art, then that % will be tiny for any period.

[NinjaSealed]

Great thread, I really think with all the current factors that play into the OA market(and the comic market) make for interesting analysis for the future of the hobby.

 

I think most would agree the core route to the birth of a collector is adult male looking to recapture/relive the childhood/youthful happiness and buy the stuff from these days in a sometimes not so fun adult world.

I think It is fair to call the silver age the kickstart to the birth of the current base of collectors. Those born in 1955 were 10 years old as the Marvel started to truly peak. It is very hard to find any males born in the late 50's who didn't read superhero comics as a kid. I am sure there are collectors who are older, but I would bet the collectors per capita tails off for those born pre 1955.

This group of people who read paper sequential art as a kid runs all the way to about 1995 when the digital age really started to kick into gear. Those born in 1982(my age) were 10 years old when X-Men #1, The Death of Superman and some of these other major events hit the stand. I can actually remember buying books off of newsstand racks. Still children of a pre digital world. Those born in 1985 were hitting 10 years old at when the internet took off, and I would bet on the top end this is where collectors per capita starts to tail off on the top end.(It is incredibly difficult to find people born after 1990 who read comics as a child, have yet to meet one.)

 

That gives you a group of collectors born from 1955-1985(30 years) who will find the hobby by standard means. The group today ranges from 32-62 years old. The bottom end getting ready for retirement, the top entering into their aggressive collecting periods, done with college, started a family and now have some extra coin in their pocket and need a hobby. The amount of new collectors that will be entering the hobby will now be shrinking(and quickly!) My gut tells me in about 15 years, when the youngest of those group are approaching 50 and the bulk of the group over 60 is where we may start to see some real issues develop in the market.

 

Of course, it's not that simple, as the superhero genre has taken a hold on pop culture as perhaps nothing has before. The movies have dominated the box office for over a decade. How many copies of KJ and DKR sell every week? I am sure this will lead to collectors coming into the hobby from a nonconventional path.

If you have a billion people who are introduced to the characters and 1/100th of them pick up a TPB that is 10 million people. If 1/100th of them become comic collectors that is 100 thousand people. If 1/100 of them become premium vintage collectors that is 1 thousand people. If half of them make the switch to OA that is 500 people.

 

Now of course I am pulling these numbers from you know where, but the fact remains that there IS a number of people who will come to the hobby by other means. What kind of difference will it make? Damned if I know.

 

I also wonder what the future of sequential art is? Does the paper comic die? Does the art form itself die? I sure hope not, but can't say it is impossible. What effect does this have on the OA market?

 

As Gene said earlier, is there really any way the market can absorb 100 top shelf collections comics to the market, once a quarter, for the next 25 years?

Only time will tell. I'll just gonna sit here in awe of the art I currently have, and patiently wait for Killing Joke pages and Kirby Silver Surfer to lose half their FMV

[SquareChaos]

I think the thing about the vintage market is that a cherry-picking of sorts has already happened because we only see a fraction of it. Gobs of bad to mediocre stuff -- from even after the Big Two started handing art back -- must have been thrown away by the artists or their heirs. Or maybe I am wrong and it's all just sitting in closets somewhere.

 

This is kind of what I was getting at with Gene's "% of truly collectible". My take is that whatever era we're talking about, the % of A/B/C-quality art will be similar. If "truly collectible" refers to A-quality art, then at % will be tiny for any period.

 

I don't know, there probably is a cost to be paid due to decompression, or "widescreen" comic art. I think that cost has to be reflected in a good number of visually less interesting pages. When I read that, I assumed that to be at the heart of what he meant.

[Nexus]

If it wasn't clear, all my comments were in the context of expanding the market. Your rebuttals appear to have missed that.

 

Ah, OK. In that case, then no, I don't believe $250 represents any barrier to expanding the market.

 

As for serving the artist...absolutely, I always consider the artist's market, including his future market. At the same time, I want to treat collectors fairly, too. No one's expressed any complaints to me so far. I'm not perfect, but I work hard. I think the artists, and most collectors, appreciate that, at least.

"Either you're a collector in this hobby, or you're not." Statements like this, not so expansive. And I suspect you may never know how many customers liked what they saw but turned away for price (or competing calls on the same $), you'll only know about those that didn't. For that matter, forget the money for a moment but...was I on your radar as being interested in Ian's art. I mean, before I said I was

 

Well, here's another one for you..."the market is the market". I've said that to people who feel commission rates are too high. Well, if the lists always fill up...then the market is the market.

 

I do know that there are potential buyers who feel prices are too high, either absolutely or relatively. But if enough of it sells...

 

I didn't know that you were interested in Ian's art. Not specifically. That's great! I'm sure there are many others. You, and they, will come when you're ready. If not, that's OK, for both of us, since again, enough of it has been selling.

[Nexus]

...who the hell these people are and where they are.

And why aren't they on this Board? Assuming they skew younger...shouldn't they be even more plugged in than older, stodgier generations? Or are they not younger? Or is this Board "lame" to them for some reason (too many "old" guys around?!)

 

Additional question (if Felix is answering any of these): are the majority "one order buyers" (of whatever size) or repeat customers returning again and again at approximately the same spend in each instance, over time?

 

They ain't got time for this board! For that matter, neither do many older (and wealthier) collectors. Have the means and the motivation, but aren't totally consumed like us. And so can't be bothered.

 

We are the minority.

 

Lots of repeat customers. Lots on single order buyers, too. But who may come back again? Time will tell.

 

I'm getting a lot of new eyeballs from the print ads and the podcast. I'm happy about that. THAT'S expanding the market. Not just for me, either. I just had one guy write me to say that because of the podcast, he had decided to get into OA. He had just picked up several pieces, would I like to see them? Sure...and he then proceeded to show me five covers he bought from another rep. !

 

That guy owes me dinner. At least.

 

[SquareChaos]

...who the hell these people are and where they are.

And why aren't they on this Board? Assuming they skew younger...shouldn't they be even more plugged in than older, stodgier generations? Or are they not younger? Or is this Board "lame" to them for some reason (too many "old" guys around?!)

 

Additional question (if Felix is answering any of these): are the majority "one order buyers" (of whatever size) or repeat customers returning again and again at approximately the same spend in each instance, over time?

 

They ain't got time for this board! For that matter, neither do many older (and wealthier) collectors. Have the means and the motivation, but aren't totally consumed like us. And so can't be bothered.

 

We are the minority.

 

Lots of repeat customers. Lots on single order buyers, too. But who may come back again? Time will tell.

 

I'm getting a lot of new eyeballs from the print ads and the podcast. I'm happy about that. THAT'S expanding the market. Not just for me, either. I just had one guy write me to say that because of the podcast, he had decided to get into OA. He had just picked up several pieces, would I like to see them? Sure...and he then proceeded to show me five covers he bought from another rep. !

 

That guy owes me dinner. At least.

 

 

Well other than that, it sounds like you're doing pretty well. And if it's any (very small) consolation, I'm keeping an eye on your site for something from Tradd and James Harren.

[Panelfan1]

Hi Felix,

 

You are in a unique situation with the podcast. Would love for a future podcast to possibly have a panel of new and old collectors giving their points of view. Not a crazy debate, but a demonstration of their collecting philosophies. Showcasing the differences/similarities.

[NinjaSealed]

The current modern art market(produced within the last 5 years) is probably deserving of its own thread, but some of the prices people are paying for this art is absolutely insane. I am seeing 1k+ for nice panel pages, $3k+ for nice splashes and $6k plus for covers, from artists not named Jim Lee or Greg Capullo, where the ink isn't even dry yet. I am willing to overpay for art, especially if the cash is going in the artists pocket, but not at 3 times what I think it would sell for at auction.

 

Felix's updates are a breath of fresh air in the current market, because they art is almost always priced very fairly.

[Nexus]

...who the hell these people are and where they are.

And why aren't they on this Board? Assuming they skew younger...shouldn't they be even more plugged in than older, stodgier generations? Or are they not younger? Or is this Board "lame" to them for some reason (too many "old" guys around?!)

 

Additional question (if Felix is answering any of these): are the majority "one order buyers" (of whatever size) or repeat customers returning again and again at approximately the same spend in each instance, over time?

 

They ain't got time for this board! For that matter, neither do many older (and wealthier) collectors. Have the means and the motivation, but aren't totally consumed like us. And so can't be bothered.

 

We are the minority.

 

Lots of repeat customers. Lots on single order buyers, too. But who may come back again? Time will tell.

 

I'm getting a lot of new eyeballs from the print ads and the podcast. I'm happy about that. THAT'S expanding the market. Not just for me, either. I just had one guy write me to say that because of the podcast, he had decided to get into OA. He had just picked up several pieces, would I like to see them? Sure...and he then proceeded to show me five covers he bought from another rep. !

 

That guy owes me dinner. At least.

 

 

Well other than that, it sounds like you're doing pretty well. And if it's any (very small) consolation, I'm keeping an eye on your site for something from Tradd and James Harren.

 

Awesome! Hope you see something you like!

 

Here's something else about that guy I just mentioned. He showed me yet another piece recently. It was a Kim Jung Gi Marvel cover that he bought for $20K. It's a gorgeous cover, but...$20K!

 

He's not on CAF, doesn't read these boards, doesn't even know any other collectors. That may change, but for now, he's on his own, with only the podcast as his window into the hobby. He's like an alien to me, but I guess there are guys like him out there.

[vodou]

The current modern art market(produced within the last 5 years) is probably deserving of its own thread, but some of the prices people are paying for this art is absolutely insane. I am seeing 1k+ for nice panel pages, $3k+ for nice splashes and $6k plus for covers, from artists not named Jim Lee or Greg Capullo, where the ink isn't even dry yet. I am willing to overpay for art, especially if the cash is going in the artists pocket, but not at 3 times what I think it would sell for at auction.

 

Felix's updates are a breath of fresh air in the current market, because they art is almost always priced very fairly.

Great analysis. I actually and specifically picked Ian/Felix as an example because the pricing is (relatively) fair. Across the site too. After all this IS art. It IS a luxury good by anybody's definition but especially our non-collecting family and friends

 

A whole lot of the rest of the modern market? Bonkers imo. I'm sure there are some other "Ian/Felix" situations out there, probably mostly on Felix's site (ha!), but otherwise...who indeed is paying four figures plus for new guys, with some flash (sure), but what else... Is it "love", is it "speculation" (misguided as that is with no track record), or all dudes that make $800k/yr so it just doesn't matter...their $2200 panel page is my buffalo wings money? I wish those collectors (whoever they are) were around to defend it a bit , tell me something I don't pessimistically come up with on my own (echo chamber) and help me make sense of it. I bet it makes perfect sense to them!

[Nexus]

Hi Felix,

 

You are in a unique situation with the podcast. Would love for a future podcast to possibly have a panel of new and old collectors giving their points of view. Not a crazy debate, but a demonstration of their collecting philosophies. Showcasing the differences/similarities.

 

I sort of attempted that in the NYCC roundtable episode, with Gene and Dan Jerome representing vintage, and Rotem and I representing modern. I'm going to try again down the line, as I've had a lot of people tell me they'd like to hear about modern art, as it's more relevant to them. Another surprise!

[SquareChaos]

...who the hell these people are and where they are.

And why aren't they on this Board? Assuming they skew younger...shouldn't they be even more plugged in than older, stodgier generations? Or are they not younger? Or is this Board "lame" to them for some reason (too many "old" guys around?!)

 

Additional question (if Felix is answering any of these): are the majority "one order buyers" (of whatever size) or repeat customers returning again and again at approximately the same spend in each instance, over time?

 

They ain't got time for this board! For that matter, neither do many older (and wealthier) collectors. Have the means and the motivation, but aren't totally consumed like us. And so can't be bothered.

 

We are the minority.

 

Lots of repeat customers. Lots on single order buyers, too. But who may come back again? Time will tell.

 

I'm getting a lot of new eyeballs from the print ads and the podcast. I'm happy about that. THAT'S expanding the market. Not just for me, either. I just had one guy write me to say that because of the podcast, he had decided to get into OA. He had just picked up several pieces, would I like to see them? Sure...and he then proceeded to show me five covers he bought from another rep. !

 

That guy owes me dinner. At least.

 

 

Well other than that, it sounds like you're doing pretty well. And if it's any (very small) consolation, I'm keeping an eye on your site for something from Tradd and James Harren.

 

Awesome! Hope you see something you like!

 

Here's something else about that guy I just mentioned. He showed me yet another piece recently. It was a Kim Jung Gi Marvel cover that he bought for $20K. It's a gorgeous cover, but...$20K!

 

He's not on CAF, doesn't read these boards, doesn't even know any other collectors. That may change, but for now, he's on his own, with only the podcast as his window into the hobby. He's like an alien to me, but I guess there are guys like him out there.

 

When I read things like this, it goes into the same category as the (often argued about ... like, right now in General, and always in Modern) ridiculously high priced modern variants.

 

What rich people (or irresponsible people who spend like they're rich) can buy on a whim has to be a red herring for these type of conversations. But yeah, I'm certain these guys exist in some number.

 

And Kim Jung Gi... not a name I've heard for a few years, that's interesting.

[delekkerste]

...who the hell these people are and where they are.

And why aren't they on this Board? Assuming they skew younger...shouldn't they be even more plugged in than older, stodgier generations? Or are they not younger? Or is this Board "lame" to them for some reason (too many "old" guys around?!)

 

Additional question (if Felix is answering any of these): are the majority "one order buyers" (of whatever size) or repeat customers returning again and again at approximately the same spend in each instance, over time?

 

I've had this conversation with Felix several times, and I've spent enough time hanging out at his booth at conventions to recognize what his clientele looks like. They're not on the Boards because they are just very different from us. Younger, yes, for the most part. Not nearly as male-dominated as what we see in the vintage world. Not so interested in what we read and collect - Felix will readily admit that the people who are obsessed with Scott Pilgrim will probably never get into Jack Kirby. Also, while they've made the leap to justifying $250 and $600 purchases (which separates them from most of the general population), my sense is that few are willing and even fewer are able to shell out the kind of sums needed to buy good/great mainstream vintage art. All of which is why me and Felix largely agree on the long-term future of the vintage side of the hobby. If you're holding your breath for the people buying Paper Girls to be Ditko Spidey OA buyers 10 years from now, you will pass out and go unconscious long before then.

 

Also, I get the sense that they're less obsessive than the vintage guys. Maybe it's because we grew up with fewer things, found something that we really loved, and just went full bore with it, while those in their 20s and 30s nowadays have had their interest scattered in more directions. Maybe they're just not as into hoarding and material accumulation as we are; it's often said that Millennials seem to be favoring experiences more than objects.

 

At the end of the day, a small part of modern OA has a thriving niche. But, I think there are a lot of built-in limitations with both the material itself and its audience that will prevent it both from blowing up as big as vintage as well as from being the savior of the vintage market in time.