X-MEN: DARK PHOENIX directed by Simon Kinberg (11/2/18) 4 4

[Ken Aldred]

2 hours ago, drotto said:

I think ultimately it is a story that does not work in a short movie format.  It is a story that is perfect for long format serial TV, but do not think it will ever get the chance.

+1

Claremont and Byrne were that era's masters of extended narrative storytelling. Much too detailed clearly to condense the escalation of Jean Grey's abilities down into 2 or 3 hours; from X-Men 101's Phoenix genesis, to the damage inflicted by Jason Wyngarde / Mastermind's psychological manipulation in the Hellfire Club sequence, to Jean's ultimate decision to kill herself in order to prevent the Phoenix Force from committing galactic-level genocide while her teammates are incapable of accepting this bigger picture conflict and letting go of her in issue 137.

Selfless heroism; hardly mental illness, and a story deserving of much more screen time.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Ken Aldred

[Bosco685]

Glad to see at least the cast is maintaining a positive vibe about this.

 

[drotto]

1 hour ago, Ken Aldred said:

+1

Claremont and Byrne were that era's masters of extended narrative storytelling. Much too detailed clearly to condense the escalation of Jean Grey's abilities down into 2 or 3 hours; from X-Men 101's Phoenix genesis, to the damage inflicted by Jason Wyngarde / Mastermind's psychological manipulation in the Hellfire Club sequence, to Jean's ultimate decision to kill herself in order to prevent the Phoenix Force from committing galactic-level genocide while her teammates are incapable of accepting this bigger picture conflict and letting go of her in issue 137.

Selfless heroism; hardly mental illness, and a story deserving of much more screen time.

Without destroying the planet and the 5 billion aliens, Jean's decision to kill herself makes much less impact and sense, because you have not seen how powerful and how bad this power can get. The history of the story at Marvel where it was changed last minute, shows how the writers struggled with ending the story. They finally realized (correctly), that as written her death was the only way to stop the threat. It was earned. The movies have been unwilling to show her committing genocide and how profoundly she was losing herself to the Phoenix Force, and I understand why to an extent.  As shown by GOT season 8, having a character go mad (to that degree) without buildup and laying the groundwork, does not go over so well. Thus leading us to two (arguable, I have not seen the new movie) unsuccessful adaptations.

 

Having this play out over 10 to 13 episodes, or even better 3 or 4 seasons of a slow burn type TV series could be brilliant. But truncating it into 2 to 3 hours has been proven unworkable. The many steps that lead her to killing herself are too complex, and need room to breath before jumping to the next plot point or action sequence. In my mind, her decision in the comics shows great clarity, selflessness, and sacrifice, as opposed to mental illness.

Edited June 8, 2019 by drotto

[paperheart]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

Glad to see at least the cast is maintaining a positive vibe about this.

 

paychecks didn't bounce; some seem to be watching residuals going up in smoke

[Bosco685]

10 minutes ago, paperheart said:

paychecks didn't bounce; some seem to be watching residuals going up in smoke

[Bosco685]

By the way, there was a character appearance hinted at over a number of movies, and finally shown.

Spoiler

Quote

If you went to refill your Diet Coke early in “X-Men: Dark Phoenix,” you may have missed the long-awaited cinematic debut of Alison Blaire, aka Dazzler — one of the most kicked-around characters in the X-Men universe of outcasts.

 

Almost from the beginning, Marvel had big-screen ambitions for Dazzler. But like so many cinematic dreams, Dazzler’s have been repeatedly dashed, leading to makeshift makeovers, dark trips down industry side alleys, and coulda-been-a-contender moments in the makeup mirror. But Dazzler’s failure as a movie star — both in the comics and in real life — has fueled some of the most compelling-yet-forgotten Marvel stories of the 1980s.

 

Alison Blair’s struggle for success is all the more emotional because Marvel struggled so hard to make her popular with readers. Just as Dazzler the singer-actress never really took off, neither did Dazzler the character. At least, not as successfully as the other characters in the “X-Men” films. The “First Class” movies, which conclude with “Dark Phoenix,” have continued the efforts to make Dazzler happen.

 

In 2016, Sophie Turner (the Jean/Dark Phoenix of “Dark Phoenix”) posted an Instagram image from a deleted scene in “X-Men: Apocalypse” in which Jean and Scott (Tye Sheridan) come across an old-looking Dazzler album.

 

Played by Halston Sage, she appears very briefly, during a celebration in the woods near Charles Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters. Dazzler is dressed as in her print debut: jumpsuit, blue facepaint around her eyes, surrounded by light. There are glimpses of her around the 2-minute mark of Emeli Sande’s video for “Extraordinary Being,” from the film:

 

And so, after 40 years, Dazzler finally gets to be in a movie. But she still isn’t a movie star.

 

She deserves better. Fortunately, she will soon get an animated series, “Marvel’s Tigra & Dazzler Show,” on Hulu. But even that seems like another twist on the big-screen dream: Marvel spent 40 years trying to make her a star, and she ended up a cartoon.

 

 

[mattn792]

Just in time for this incarnation of the franchise to die too!  

[fantastic_four]

10 hours ago, drotto said:

Disney has already stated there would be at least 5 years till we see the X-Men again.

Are you referring to the comment where Feige said they already had a 5-year plan worked out prior to them getting the X-Men?  All he said was that it would be a long time, not necessarily that they wouldn't get worked in to whatever that 5-year plan is.

[jason4]

Long time xmen comic, animated series, and movie fan here. I did not like xmen apocalypse.

I saw dark Phoenix with some people...

Everyone including myself thought it was awesome. Same thing happened with venom. I'm done even considering critics scores.

People were going to bash this just because it's going to mcu which is great but it did not mean this had to be a bad movie and it's not. 

[Bosco685]

7 hours ago, mattn792 said:

Just in time for this incarnation of the franchise to die too!  

[Bosco685]

6 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

Are you referring to the comment where Feige said they already had a 5-year plan worked out prior to them getting the X-Men?  All he said was that it would be a long time, not necessarily that they wouldn't get worked in to whatever that 5-year plan is.

Bingo! Once again, people reading a story in a way to support their negative perception.

KEVIN FEIGE SAYS MARVEL HAS A 'FIVE-YEAR PLAN' FOR WHAT COMES AFTER ENDGAME

17 hours ago, drotto said:

Disney has already stated there would be at least 5 years till we see the X-Men again.

You had to break our trend, didn't you? 

[Bosco685]

Interesting article on all the Easter Eggs throughout. I caught some of these, missed a few for sure.

Dark Phoenix: Every Easter Egg & Marvel Secret You Missed

Quote

THE 'X' IN THE LOGO GOES PHOENIX

The seasoned X-Men fans know that one of the subtlest Easter Eggs actually comes before the movie even begins, thanks to the 20th Century Fox title card. The music and animation are all exactly the same as any other Fox movie, with the exception of the "X" remaining illuminated for a split second, after the rest of the logo fades to black.

Naturally.

Quote

Spoiler

THE HELLFIRE CLUB'S BLACK QUEEN

It wouldn't be an X-Men movie without some barely mentioned, but totally canon characters appearing along the fringes of the story. For Dark Phoenix, that task falls to Magneto's assistant, Selene (played by actress Kota Eberhardt). Gifted with psychic abilities, the story suggests that she is a minor player to the overall plot... which isn't true. At least, it wasn't in the original comic.

For those unfamiliar, Selene is secretly one of the oldest mutants in history--potentially even older than Apocalypse, even if it means honoring her origins (and ignoring the later changes) above the famous villain's. If she wasn't the first, she's certainly the oldest, being born more than 17,000 years ago. Her gifts make her a 'psychic vampire,' consuming humans' life force to prolong her own immortality. She's also been the Black Queen of the Hellfire Club, which had a largely-erased role to play in the "Phoenix Saga" as well.

 

Totally missed that one, as I wondered who the character was, though very powerful in how she assisted the team.

Quote

Spoiler

CHARLES XAVIER IS TOTALLY NOT A HERO

After his death (just... don't ask) the 2000s saw many of Xavier's morally grey decisions brought to light. Whether it was mentally de-powering dangerous mutants, or erasing painful or inconvenient memories, some people knew that Charles Xavier wasn't a hero of the X-Men long ago.

 

Although it felt uncomfortable at first to see him like this, I actually thought it was an interesting twist.

[Bosco685]

John Campea was planning on seeing a total bomb before going to see Dark Phoenix.

Then he saw it for himself.

It's Act 3 that makes the film come across decent. Act 2, not so much.

[Bosco685]

Went back to watch the old X-Men TAS group of episodes that makes up the Dark Phoenix storyline. Still so good!

The film team should have just gone for broke, and no matter what is in Captain Marvel (10...9...8...7...) do your story using the best of the source material. Don't worry about being categorized as copying another film.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Bosco685

[Bosco685]

OUCH!

 

[Aweandlorder]

Was an ok movie. Nothing to brag about. 

[paperheart]

$140MM WW, may scrape past $300MM, but unmitigated disaster

Edited June 9, 2019 by paperheart

[mattn792]

1 minute ago, paperheart said:

$140MM WW, probably will scrape past $300MM, but unmitigated disaster

They should’ve seen this coming from the start.  The first guy to say “let’s do the Phoenix thing again” should’ve been fired.  Lessons not learned.

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

They should’ve seen this coming from the start.  The first guy to say “let’s do the Phoenix thing again” should’ve been fired.  Lessons not learned.

Interesting on that across 18K users, IMDb is reflecting 6.0 versus trash-level bad that you would desire.

What is interesting is viewers 18 or younger rated this much stronger. I wonder if this is a Sophie Turner influence at play?

[@therealsilvermane]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

Went back to watch the old X-Men TAS group of episodes that makes up the Dark Phoenix storyline. Still so good!

The film team should have just gone for broke, and no matter what is in Captain Marvel (10...9...8...7...) do your story using the best of the source material. Don't worry about being categorized a copying another film.

Box office returns aside, changing the ending wasn't the movie's problem. Skrulls, D'Bari, whatever. There was no real story or plot development in this movie, other than Jean being possessed by the Phoenix. 

SPOILERS AHEAD (don't really feel like pressing the hide button, and does anybody really care?)

Basically, in this movie, we're following Jean Grey from Point A to Point B to Point C as she looks for help from all the men in her life. First Charles, then her dad, then Magneto, then finally a D'Bari shape shifted as a woman. The "woman" gives her answers. Fine. But as she progresses through this journey, the stakes should be raised. The film artificially raises the stakes, but not enough happens in the movie for the audience to truly feel the heightened danger and for the characters to act or react the way they do.

After the school bonfire party when Jean loses control, she flees to her home. She argues with dad. She talks about hurting people. But did she really hurt anybody? A few bruises maybe. But nothing to really compel her to find her lost father. In the comics, she destroyed the D'Bari planet before visiting her home. There were high stakes there. In the movie, not so much. Does she start hurting her dad? No, she safely makes him pass out as the X-Men arrive. And when they arrive, they arrive in battle gear at opposite ends of the street like a showdown. Why? Jean has done nothing at this point to warrant the team to be in battle mode. And why do five police cars suddenly show up with guns a blazing? Again, no reason other than artificially raising the stakes. Then Jean accidentally kills Raven. It was an accident. But before Jean can react in the moment to what she's done, so we can feel her emotion and the movie can build on that, she flees. As a result, her crying scene in the alley is not as strong as it could have been.

When she seeks out Magneto, why is she again met with suspicion by the mutants and Magneto? I thought they were friendly at least? Magneto doesn't know what happened. And then the army shows up in helicopters. Why? Because of the police incident? And why do they show up at Genosha? And then why does Jean start attacking the helicopters? Again, other than Raven being killed on accident, nothing has happened  to warrant this level of tension and aggression in the movie. None of it made any sense. And then when Magneto learns that it was Raven's blood on Jean's shirt, he turns into a madman bent on revenge. Why? Was he that close to Raven? I thought he tried to kill her in Days of Future Past? And didn't Hank realize that it was an accident? Surely Charles would have known.

 I liked the psionic battle between Jean and Charles, as it was right out of the comics. But at the same time, it was underwhelming. Jean realizing that Charles truly cared for her is what turns the tide? A bit lackluster.

During Jean Grey's Phoenix hero moment, when she's taking out D'Bari minions left and right, she does it with a cold detachment that makes her seem as if she's still evil. Shouldn't we see more emotion on her face or something so that we can see that she's truly fighting for something other than simply crushing ants beneath her fingers?

There were a lot of small emotional moments throughout the film that I appreciated and which the actors performed well. The ----script by Simon Kinberg, however, simply didn't warrant those emotional moments, or larger moments for that matter. The plot had no organic story legs to stand on. There was no logical or emotional progression to the Dark Phoenix story. Perhaps part of the ----script were left out in an effort to condense the story into two hours, but by the time the ending arrives, it doesn't matter if it was in outer space or on a train.  The film up to that point hasn't really given us, or at least some of us, reason to care.

Edited June 9, 2019 by @therealsilvermane