Is it sacrilegious? 2 2

[John E.]

I think Gene makes a very valid point, but only if putting the cost of the inking (or coloring) aside. Run them side by side (unmolested vs. molested actual cost basis) for ROI...who knows. I'm not sure the OP will recover that premium (at the same ROI rate) on the pieces as it's now "enhanced", same as I'm not so sure the Conan situation would either. Maybe it just makes it more liquid?

 

Yeah, I'm reading two different conversations (like most threads). One is the ethics of altering original art; the second is how must is the value affected by the alteration.

 

Like eeewnuk pointed out, the market for Jae Lee's work is strong and this is a strong piece. If the owner decided to auction the page off tomorrow and I had to place a bet as to whether is would make money or lose money, I'd play it conservatively and bet that it'll lose a little bit of money because that's what modern art (art created in the last month to three years) does. But fifteen years from now...or fifteen years after death...I don't think the alteration will matter and the piece would end on a hammer price higher than the original "investment."

 

I feel that the reason so many objections are raised is because the OP had so many options to go with than to alter the original. I agree with this and thus why I would err on this side. But like Vodou pointed out, I'm not sure if I care so much to embellish something I already own. If I bought that pencil page, it's because I liked the pencil work on it. And I would certainly put the brakes on anyone trying to ink an original Kirby pencil piece; but this isn't Kirby we're talking about.

[John E.]

Malvin must be working overtime to bring the haters out.

 

There are more than 60 unsold pieces of Jae Lee Bats/Supes art on AlbertMoy.com alone, and that only encompasses selected pages from a small handful of issues from the series. There must be thousands of unsold Jae Lee pages out there in total (not all on the website obviously) from all the series that he's worked on. Yes, the art is cool, but there's more supply than demand can ever meet. Like I said, you could incinerate most of it and few would even realize the art was missing. No one is going to miss one or even a hundred random pages that are inked over and no longer exist in their original form.

 

If anyone wants a good pencil-only Jae Lee example, there's more than enough to go around for everyone for now...and all of eternity. :whatthe:

 

You're speaking of Jae's work as a group and not really focusing on this one, unique, impossible to replace page such as most of the rest of the people here are. Sure, there are a lot of pages out there unclaimed (their list price may have something to do with that, just saying, but that's another conversation), but it doesn't change the fact that this page, that someone did buy, has been modified beyond repair.

 

Yes, it's impossible to replace that page, but it's not the only "Batman vs. Catwoman" Lee piece created, and if a collector is looking for an example, he or she can find another. I think Gene's point is that if you're looking for an example by Jae Lee, there's plenty out there with more than 60 pages available on Albert's site (albeit no A+ examples). Realistically, altering one Jae Lee page isn't going to cause ripples in the supply. Similarly, if I can add to my previous point, objections are raised because collectors entered the hobby on the premise that each page is unique and one-of-a-kind. In this respect, yes, what the OP did was sacrilege. But to Gene's point, this is one altered one-of-a-kind piece among a million one-of-a-kind pieces in the hobby. Is it really that special?

[SquareChaos]

Malvin must be working overtime to bring the haters out.

 

There are more than 60 unsold pieces of Jae Lee Bats/Supes art on AlbertMoy.com alone, and that only encompasses selected pages from a small handful of issues from the series. There must be thousands of unsold Jae Lee pages out there in total (not all on the website obviously) from all the series that he's worked on. Yes, the art is cool, but there's more supply than demand can ever meet. Like I said, you could incinerate most of it and few would even realize the art was missing. No one is going to miss one or even a hundred random pages that are inked over and no longer exist in their original form.

 

If anyone wants a good pencil-only Jae Lee example, there's more than enough to go around for everyone for now...and all of eternity. :whatthe:

 

You're speaking of Jae's work as a group and not really focusing on this one, unique, impossible to replace page such as most of the rest of the people here are. Sure, there are a lot of pages out there unclaimed (their list price may have something to do with that, just saying, but that's another conversation), but it doesn't change the fact that this page, that someone did buy, has been modified beyond repair.

 

Yes, it's impossible to replace that page, but it's not the only "Batman vs. Catwoman" Lee piece created, and if a collector is looking for an example, he or she can find another. I think Gene's point is that if you're looking for an example by Jae Lee, there's plenty out there with more than 60 pages available on Albert's site (albeit no A+ examples). Realistically, altering one Jae Lee page isn't going to cause ripples in the supply. Similarly, if I can add to my previous point, objections are raised because collectors entered the hobby on the premise that each page is unique and one-of-a-kind. In this respect, yes, what the OP did was sacrilege. But to Gene's point, this is one altered one-of-a-kind piece among a million one-of-a-kind pieces in the hobby. Is it really that special?

 

I completely get it, I just don't think that is what the conversation was about. It's a valid tangent, but I think the real point was about modifying a piece of OA in a vacuum, not talking about the market as a whole and what that modification may mean to the nebulous "Jae Lee collecting public."

 

I always appreciate reading Gene's comments since I tend to learn something - being a relatively noob and all - but it just seemed off point to me logically

[delekkerste]

You're speaking of Jae's work as a group and not really focusing on this one, unique, impossible to replace page such as most of the rest of the people here are. Sure, there are a lot of pages out there unclaimed (their list price may have something to do with that, just saying, but that's another conversation), but it doesn't change the fact that this page, that someone did buy, has been modified beyond repair.

 

Sure, that particular page is irreparably changed, but my point is...and so what? (and I say that in the nicest possible way )

 

Due to decompressed storytelling, it's not like there isn't going to be another 100+ pages from just that one same storyline and probably one or more pages featuring very similar content. And if you just want a nice example, you'll probably have dozens/hundreds more pages to choose from. And, given the size of the fanbase today vs. in the vintage era (before everyone's consciousness was splintered into an infinite # of different directions post-1995/6), combined with the # of titles being published across dozens of publishers nowadays, you basically have a situation where there is more content being created than ever before, being viewed by fewer eyeballs than ever before. No different from network TV or newspapers and magazines, which have all seen their viewership/readership decline due to competition from other media. How many people are even going to notice or care if a page has been changed or even destroyed? How many people are going to be fixated on one particular page? This, to me, is like a "if a tree falls in the woods..." situation. If Jae inked a hundred of his best recent pages after the fact and didn't tell anyone about it...I doubt it would have any consequences on anything. If Barry Smith inked all of his pencil-only Conan 19 pages, on the other hand, I'm sure that would create quite a furor in the hobby.

 

If you're not producing art for a top 1% book or are a top 1% working artist, chances you are producing more art than collectors will ever want. Jae Lee is an excellent artist. But, he is not Jim Lee, and there is probably already more Jae Lee art in existence to satisfy collector demand from now until eternity. As such, I just can't see it as being anything but a non-event if someone has Jae himself ink one of his pages to make it more presentable. Any of his pages, for that matter.

 

I had a racing exhaust put onto my (modern) sports car a while ago. Would I have made any non-stock modifications if I owned a classic car? Of course not. Same goes with vintage OA vs. Modern OA. There are very real differences between the two and I don't think all the same rules that apply to the former should have to apply to the latter.

 

Ultimately, it's a matter of opinion...YMMV!

[SquareChaos]

You're speaking of Jae's work as a group and not really focusing on this one, unique, impossible to replace page such as most of the rest of the people here are. Sure, there are a lot of pages out there unclaimed (their list price may have something to do with that, just saying, but that's another conversation), but it doesn't change the fact that this page, that someone did buy, has been modified beyond repair.

 

Sure, that particular page is irreparably changed, but my point is...and so what? (and I say that in the nicest possible way )

 

Due to decompressed storytelling, it's not like there isn't going to be another 100+ pages from just that one same storyline and probably one or more pages featuring very similar content. And if you just want a nice example, you'll probably have dozens/hundreds more pages to choose from. And, given the size of the fanbase today vs. in the vintage era (before everyone's consciousness was splintered into an infinite # of different directions post-1995/6), combined with the # of titles being published across dozens of publishers nowadays, you basically have a situation where there is more content being created than ever before, being viewed by fewer eyeballs than ever before. No different from network TV or newspapers and magazines, which have all seen their viewership/readership decline due to competition from other media. How many people are even going to notice or care if a page has been changed or even destroyed? How many people are going to be fixated on one particular page?

 

If you're not producing art from a top 1% book or are a top 1% working artist, chances you are producing more art than collectors will ever want. Jae Lee is an excellent artist. But, he is not Jim Lee, and there is probably already more Jae Lee art in existence to satisfy collector demand from now until eternity. As such, I just can't see it as being anything but a non-event if someone has Jae himself ink one of his pages to make it more presentable. Any of his pages, for that matter.

 

I had a racing exhaust put onto my (modern) sports car a while ago. Would I have made any non-stock modifications if I owned a classic car? Of course not. Same goes with vintage OA vs. Modern OA. There are very real differences between the two and I don't think all the same rules that apply to the former should have to apply to the latter.

 

Ultimately, it's a matter of opinion...YMMV!

 

No, I hear where you're coming from. This premise is a direct result of the current pet topic of the forum - perhaps the question boils down to whether one respects modern comic art as a medium... and not just the top 'A-level pages' that make up an increasingly small percentage of the whole.

[Cleangone]

I'm not a regular cgc-boardster, but was pointed to this thread for obvious reasons.

 

IMO, congratulations on a project well done. You now have one of the best looking pages from that book, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more Jae post-inked pages showing up. I disagree with people that say it's no longer the original page and is now some type of recreation - you had the inker ink the page. The inker! And I completely agree with your idea to do it on the actual page. I'm not a fan of blueline inks unless it's a project where multiple inkers are doing their interpretation of an image, a-la the Big Wow auction pieces. We're not talking about a 5-figure 40 year old page. It's a several hundred dollar modern page who's brothers and sisters can be purchased at Albert's any day of the week.

 

If he had all day to labor over pages, and the page itself was the end result, I'd be willing to bet Jae would have inked them all for publication. But as technology advances, artists continue to explore ways to get published books out faster and more reliably. Some pencil and then ink digitally. Some pencil digitally and then ink manually. Some piece pages together panel by panel. Some drop-in digital backgrounds or digital zip-like tones/screens. But regardless of the specific process, the physical page looks less and less like the printed product.

 

I can see where people do not liked inked prelims - that is taking something that was meant to be in pencil form and changing it. But here, you had the time (not on a deadline) and money to revisit a page meant for inks, and allow the artist himself to fully express what he would have wanted the page to look. And not that you need more ammo for your side of the discussion, but look at the positive response Jae himself gave you. He could have said the the page was already finished, but instead he liked the idea.

 

andy robbins

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

One harmless page becomes a thousand eventually and the original(s) are needlessly lost. Another decade of worthless digital art and people will be craving for original pencil work.

[MyNameIsLegion]

I agree with 100% of everything Gene has said in this thread, and on the subject of Modern OA in general.

 

 

The rest of you....not so much

[Cleangone]

A quick note - I assumed it was Jae himself who did the digital inks. If that's not true, just insert "artist" into my self-righteous statement above.

 

andy

[Nexus]

Sigh...this same old mess again...

 

Yes, sometimes the art is on two boards, one with pencils, one with inks.

 

But that's not ALL modern OA. Which some people here seem to believe. That's actually just a small subset of modern OA.

 

Yes, there's are a lot of books coming out these days, and thus, a lot of art.. But a fair percentage of it is digital. So the amount of traditionally produced OA doesn't correspond exactly with what hits the racks.

 

On the matter of actually altering the art...to each their own. I'm personally not a fan, but I can't say I absolutely WOULDN'T, either. It's also amusing to me that some here believe this is primarily an ongoing issue for modern art, when vintage art still gets futzed with all the time. And isn't often disclosed. This doesn't affect the art directly, but I've heard that there's a dealer who buys mylars in bulk. And when a vintage page is too big for the mylar, instead of finding a bigger one, he'll trim the page so that it fits the mylar.

 

I don't alter any of the art I sell, but if someone wants to ink it, color it, trim it, etc. after they buy it, then that's their choice. It's not just that there's a lot of modern art, and thus, what does it really matter. From the '70s on, there's a lot of art, period. And much like poor Jae Lee who's undeservedly become a punching bag here, people will only end up caring about a small percentage of it. Let's not get TOO precious about the "art".

 

 

[malvin]

I haven't been counting, nor did we really define "haters" when we made our friendly bet. But I think we have exceeded 5 right?

 

Malvin

[Eric Seffinga]

And at the threat of beating the dead equine, I just want to point out again, that the reason modern art is so seemingly plentiful is that it's modern. And back in the 70s when that art was modern, it too was plentiful Sold by the stack full, and out of trunks, etc. Hand colored by kids, or poorly trimmed/framed and otherwise with, by it's owners.

 

I know the arguments of 'compressed" vs "uncompressed" and the arguments of vintage art's superiority (despite the fact that there is schlocky and filler in EVERY era of comic creation.

 

At the end of the day, the older stuff is scarcer because it's had a 10, 20, 30+ year head start. Come back in 30 years and lets talk about the glut/dearth of modern art. Until then it's just more educated guesswork.

 

How many people thought their early 2000s $50 Preacher talking heads pages were gonna bring in what they do now? Well other than MNSN?

 

 

Back in the 90s and early 2000sguitarists ragged on how terrible a 70s Fender guitar was. It was the era, and anyone that paid more than a few hundred bucks was a damn fool. Now, Fender makes REISSUES of 70s Strats and sells them for $2K+. That's crazy sauce, IMO.

 

Never think you know what's going to play out for collectability and what is inherently superior or not. The future is just waiting to laugh at you!

[Bronty]

Sigh...this same old mess again...

 

Yes, sometimes the art is on two boards, one with pencils, one with inks.

 

But that's not ALL modern OA. Which some people here seem to believe. That's actually just a small subset of modern OA.

 

Yes, there's are a lot of books coming out these days, and thus, a lot of art.. But a fair percentage of it is digital. So the amount of traditionally produced OA doesn't correspond exactly with what hits the racks.

 

On the matter of actually altering the art...to each their own. I'm personally not a fan, but I can't say I absolutely WOULDN'T, either. It's also amusing to me that some here believe this is primarily an ongoing issue for modern art, when vintage art still gets futzed with all the time. And isn't often disclosed. This doesn't affect the art directly, but I've heard that there's a dealer who buys mylars in bulk. And when a vintage page is too big for the mylar, instead of finding a bigger one, he'll trim the page so that it fits the mylar.

 

I don't alter any of the art I sell, but if someone wants to ink it, color it, trim it, etc. after they buy it, then that's their choice. It's not just that there's a lot of modern art, and thus, what does it really matter. From the '70s on, there's a lot of art, period. And much like poor Jae Lee who's undeservedly become a punching bag here, people will only end up caring about a small percentage of it. Let's not get TOO precious about the "art".

 

 

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. The point has been made that its not an expensive page (and I think THAT is the *real* point that was made when you dress it down - not that there's a lot of them, because there's a lot of kirby and such as well). Fine. Its not an expensive page.

 

So the question is: are we talking about this page in particular or the practice in general? I'm not a fan of any practice that alters originals or even mass produced items unless its truly necessary for conservation. There are 1000 pressing threads that would indicate its a fairly prevalent notion that items shouldn't be messed with, however slightly. Just leave the stuff alone in the context of resale. In the context of keeping it for all time... knock yourself out. Use some kirby for toilet paper while you're at it.

[Twanj]

which is worse, inking recreation commissions or having stuff colored?

 

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jim-lee-and-scott-williams-batman-614-hush-joker-page-8-original-art-dc-2003-/a/7147-92151.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

 

[SquareChaos]

I'm not a regular cgc-boardster, but was pointed to this thread for obvious reasons.

 

IMO, congratulations on a project well done. You now have one of the best looking pages from that book, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more Jae post-inked pages showing up. I disagree with people that say it's no longer the original page and is now some type of recreation - you had the inker ink the page. The inker! And I completely agree with your idea to do it on the actual page. I'm not a fan of blueline inks unless it's a project where multiple inkers are doing their interpretation of an image, a-la the Big Wow auction pieces. We're not talking about a 5-figure 40 year old page. It's a several hundred dollar modern page who's brothers and sisters can be purchased at Albert's any day of the week.

 

If he had all day to labor over pages, and the page itself was the end result, I'd be willing to bet Jae would have inked them all for publication. But as technology advances, artists continue to explore ways to get published books out faster and more reliably. Some pencil and then ink digitally. Some pencil digitally and then ink manually. Some piece pages together panel by panel. Some drop-in digital backgrounds or digital zip-like tones/screens. But regardless of the specific process, the physical page looks less and less like the printed product.

 

I can see where people do not liked inked prelims - that is taking something that was meant to be in pencil form and changing it. But here, you had the time (not on a deadline) and money to revisit a page meant for inks, and allow the artist himself to fully express what he would have wanted the page to look. And not that you need more ammo for your side of the discussion, but look at the positive response Jae himself gave you. He could have said the the page was already finished, but instead he liked the idea.

 

andy robbins

 

 

I personally have no problem with what someone wants to do with their art, but it is impossible to claim this isn't some form of recreation / destruction of the original. Logic seems to dictate that it doesn't matter who did this work (as in, the original inker / illustrator), it matters when the work was done... before or after it was published.

 

And, for the record, it does look very nice, this isn't an aesthetics argument from me on any account, just a statement that the only piece of 'original art' for the final published piece no longer exists.

[alxjhnsn]

I wouldn't have done it. I'd have asked him to blue-line ink or lightbox ink it..

 

I have a Curt Swan pencil commission that I wanted to see inked by an inker that wouldn't overwhelm Curt. Joe Rubinstein did that for me and Laura Martin hand colored it. I think the result is exceptional and my daughter hangs it in the entryway of her new home while the pencils hang in my den.

 

I consider them two separate pieces of OA and I'm quite happy that I didn't ink the original.

 

There are days that I wish I'd had Laura color a photocopy of the inks.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by alxjhnsn

[Cleangone]

Realistically, altering one Jae Lee page isn't going to cause ripples in the supply. Similarly, if I can add to my previous point, objections are raised because collectors entered the hobby on the premise that each page is unique and one-of-a-kind. In this respect, yes, what the OP did was sacrilege. But to Gene's point, this is one altered one-of-a-kind piece among a million one-of-a-kind pieces in the hobby. Is it really that special?

 

But because the work was done on the page, its uniqueness and one-of-a-kind-ness was not affected. it's still the unique, one-of-a-kind original to that page of the book. In this respect, it's the blueline inks of pages that are more sacrilegious.

 

andy

 

[delekkerste]

Felix, it's not just that there's SO MUCH new art being created these days. Even accounting for digital, it's a staggering amount. It's also that, pre-1996, vintage books had readerships that were multiples (often many multiples) of today's (talking about per book/title). And, add to that all the people who read this material after the publication date - it's literally an order of magnitude higher than the number of eyeballs that will read any given issue of most current titles.

 

Add again to that the fact that storytelling was not decompressed, and the delineation between storylines very distinct. There's a reason why people remember pretty much every cover of X-Men or Spider-Man from the old days but would struggle to place associate particular images from those titles over the past 15 years with specific issues or even storylines. Or, even to recall particular images in the first place.

 

My point being, a lot more people, both contemporaneously and ex post facto, remember so much of that older art, not just the storylines and specific issues, but specific pages and even as granular as specific panels. And that's why you don't futz around with vintage art (one of the reasons, anyway). Can you honestly say that's the case with Modern OA? I've read literally DOZENS of modern books over the past couple of months and my image recall/association/retention is almost nil. It's just a very different product/experience than reading comic books of old. And of course no one approves of undisclosed restoration and alteration of vintage art. That goes without saying.

 

With most Modern books, you're lucky if 50,000 pairs of eyeballs lay eyes on it and if 1 or 2 people are interested in the art. For most of the Big Two titles, my guess is that the modal number of people actively seeking art from newly published issues is ZERO. Obviously that doesn't encompass all Modern titles, and we both agree that the best Modern titles are published by independents and repped by Felix Comic Art. No one is going to argue that Scott Pilgrim and Paper Girls and Manhattan Projects don't have a rabid group of fans who want a piece of the art. But, how many people are clamoring for art from the dozens of Marvel titles that come out every month?

[Bronty]

Felix, it's not just that there's SO MUCH new art being created these days. Even accounting for digital, it's a staggering amount. It's also that, pre-1996, vintage books had readerships that were multiples (often many multiples) of today's (talking about per book/title). And, add to that all the people who read this material after the publication date - it's literally an order of magnitude higher than the number of eyeballs that will read any given issue of most current titles.

 

Add again to that the fact that storytelling was not decompressed, and the delineation between storylines very distinct. There's a reason why people remember pretty much every cover of X-Men or Spider-Man from the old days but would struggle to place associate particular images from those titles over the past 15 years with specific issues or even storylines. Or, even to recall particular images in the first place.

 

My point being, a lot more people, both contemporaneously and ex post facto, remember so much of that older art, not just the storylines and specific issues, but specific pages and even as granular as specific panels. And that's why you don't futz around with vintage art (one of the reasons, anyway). Can you honestly say that's the case with Modern OA? I've read literally DOZENS of modern books over the past couple of months and my image recall/association/retention is almost nil. It's just a very different product/experience than reading comic books of old. And of course no one approves of undisclosed restoration and alteration of vintage art. That goes without saying.

 

With most Modern books, you're lucky if 50,000 pairs of eyeballs lay eyes on it and if 1 or 2 people are interested in the art. For most of the Big Two titles, my guess is that the modal number of people actively seeking art from newly published issues is ZERO. Obviously that doesn't encompass all Modern titles, and we both agree that the best Modern titles are published by independents and repped by Felix Comic Art. No one is going to argue that Scott Pilgrim and Paper Girls and Manhattan Projects don't have a rabid group of fans who want a piece of the art. But, how many people are clamoring for art from the dozens of Marvel titles that come out every month?

 

I feel like you are pushing the 'modern art is garbage' agenda more than anything.

 

 

[vodou]

At the end of the day, the older stuff is scarcer because it's had a 10, 20, 30+ year head start. Come back in 30 years and lets talk about the glut/dearth of modern art. Until then it's just more educated guesswork.

The older stuff is not scarcer unless you're talking pre-70s (and really much earlier, and scarce isn't what it's about anyway...see: random Golden Age art!) But it has all been "placed" and is hiding out of sight. Which is very different from almost all modern art, almost all Jae Lee art, etc. Best thing Jae and Albert could do (if they cared to) would be lower the prices down to fmv and blow them out, or pull the bulk (55+) of pieces off the market. Art "value" is fully perception based. And the perception we're talking here is stock vs. flow. A peek at my collection, in person, would dispel any myths there are about scarcity of 70s-80s Marvel art. Plenty of stock, but look around -publicly- not so much flow. It's just not out on the market "today". (Which explains a lot of things that make little sense on HA and CLink when the final hammer falls!) Stacks. Just like you used to be able to buy stacks, out of even bigger stacks, of Buscema Conan interiors for...$5/per. As many as you'd like. There was not a big line to do so though. And I doubt there was much culling of the Alcala inks out from the Chan inks either That came later when the (visible) stacks were...smaller.

 

Good point Eric. The market often makes fools of those that look to the immediate past to predict the immediate and even far-flung future (and then place big bets!) Otherwise...we'd all be rich, yah?