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Adam Warlock 1st appearance?
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75 posts in this topic

I really thot Thor 165 would be the 1st appearance of Warlock but it looks like most people point to FF 67  as his 1st FULL appearance and Marvel Premiere 1 as 1st app as Adam Warlock. I guess Thor 165 has no relevance?

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False. Thor #165 is his 1st FULL appearance. FF#67 is a cameo appearance. 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7914847

 

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Edited by AGGIEZ
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All three are pretty hot.

The Thor 166 and FF 66 are long since dropped from par with their neighbor book, but that's well known.  Only mention it because it's the irritation of change (I tended to buy copies of these in pairs, although on the bright side it means I have the key too).

Wouldn't be surprised if we're seeing a peak in Warlock popularity/speculation that will last until there is confirmation of Warlock's role in the Avengers pair of movies.  I've only been observing the correlation between movies and market a year, but also did a lot of reading here, and it seems the slope downward in prices hits several months before the "event" movie.  Obviously it's fluid, and the top' may last a few or even several months (2-5?).  E.g. for clarity, I sold a VG/F Doc 169 six months before the movie for 100 and three months later could be found around half that.   And Warlock's still in the 'soul gem' spec phase, which probably means it could go on a while . . .

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On 2/25/2017 at 7:46 PM, Bronx said:

Have to agree.  FF67 all the way. Beautiful full cover of him in iconic cocoon.  Talking through the cocoon.  Origin story.  Full panel views of HIM.  Appears two full years before Thor 165.  Fans should try to own 165 & MP 1 but you must have FF67 in any Silver key collection.  

Yep, I have all three. Three CGC copies in each different titles and three raw copies in each different titles. Also I have extra copies in each titles.  Just wait and see if the movie will come out.

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The argument for Thor 165 just does not compare to other examples being used: 

1. Hulk 180 & 181 

2. Spiderman 299 & 300 

3. X-Factor 5 & 6 

4. Fantastic Four 48 & 49

There are quite a few different reasons.  The biggest is the time difference between so called cameo and full appearance.  Each of the above issues occurred within one month of each other from one issue to the next.  Marvel meant to create anticipation so they teased the character.  The two year gap between FF67 and Th165 shows Marvel had no desire to tease the character.  They told the entire story across two issues.  FF66 is the actual cameo or teaser to his full intro in FF67.  

Add that to the multiple panels of the cocoon, multiple panels of HIM, multiple panels of HIM talking in person, in cocoon and fading away into oblivion as well as the entire two comic storyline based on HIM's origin and creation and you have a lovely all time classic Kirby/Lee storyline in one neat two issue installment.  

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The timing between the books is completely irrelevant. The appearance of the character is what matters here. FF #67 is a 2-panel cameo...nothing more. Yes, a first appearance but in the same vein as ASM #299 as Venom's first appearance. It's a first appearance in a cameo and collectors generally don't value that as much as the first FULL appearance, particularly when the character appears on the cover.

CGC label agrees and it looks like the fanboy market, looking at GPA sales, favors Thor #165 as well. 

If we're talking about the first appearance of a cocoon, that's a different story...

 

Edited by AGGIEZ
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On 2/27/2017 at 8:24 PM, AGGIEZ said:

The timing between the books is completely irrelevant. The appearance of the character is what matters here. FF #67 is a 2-panel cameo...nothing more. Yes, a first appearance but in the same vein as ASM #299 as Venom's first appearance. It's a first appearance in a cameo and collectors generally don't value that as much as the first FULL appearance, particularly when the character appears on the cover.

CGC label agrees and it looks like the fanboy market, looking at GPA sales, favors Thor #165 as well. 

If we're talking about the first appearance of a cocoon, that's a different story...

 

2 years is quite significant. It shows that Lee and Kirby has established the character in '67. No follow up needed. Thor 165 did not contribute to HIM/Warlock's character development - Marvel Premiere 1 is actually more important (after FF 67) if you actually read the books.

FF 67 = origin (check), focal point of the story (check), full body appearance (check), dialogue (check)

Thor 165 = cover appearance (check). 

I don't care what the "market"/flippers says. Thor 165 is nothing more than a book to flip. FF67 all day!!! 

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Wrong...

Which is the key...ASM #299 or #300? First FULL appearance is what matters to first appearance collectors...not some 2-panel cameo, regardless of the timing. And the story in 165 certainly did contribute to the characters deveopment. Have you read it? It tells you why he was created and what he did to his creators...thats part of his origin.

In a vacuum, if this book were published 2 months after FF#67 you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. It's obviously his first full appearance but the fact that it came out 24 months after his cameo makes you discount the fact that this is his first full appearance...so time is your only argument. Weak and irrelevant...but agree to disagree. You collect all the ASM 299s, Man of Steel 17s, Hulk 180s and Jimmy Olsen 134s you want. I'll stick to the more relevant first full appearance books.

Point made (check). 

Edited by AGGIEZ
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1 hour ago, AGGIEZ said:

Wrong...

Which is the key...ASM #299 or #300? First FULL appearance is what matters to first appearance collectors...not some 2-panel cameo, regardless of the timing. And the story in 165 certainly did contribute to the characters deveopment. Have you read it? It tells you why he was created and what he did to his creators...thats part of his origin.

In a vacuum, if this book were published 2 months after FF#67 you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. It's obviously his first full appearance but the fact that it came out 24 months after his cameo makes you discount the fact that this is his first full appearance...so time is your only argument. Weak and irrelevant...but agree to disagree. You collect all the ASM 299s, Man of Steel 17s, Hulk 180s and Jimmy Olsen 134s you want. I'll stick to the more relevant first full appearance books.

Point made (check). 

We're not talking about ASM 299 and 300, which is part of a continuous storyline. We're talking about FF67 and Thor 165, which are TWO years apart. Sure, if Thor 165 came out the following month and is part of the first HIM story arc, then I would say Thor 165 is relevant. But that is not the case is it? 

Yes, I read Thor 165. HIM was lonely and decided to kidnap and mate with Sif. Since the book came out 2 yrs after FF 66 and 67, Lee and Kirby had to rehash his origin - yes, it has been that long... Read FF 66 and 67 and you will see how irrelevant Thor 165 is! I'll give Thor 165 some brownie points for having a cooler cover, but not by much! The cocoon cover is quite epic too!

Disclaimer, I have multiple copies of both FF67 and Thor 165. 

FF67 to keep, Thor 165 to flip! (check)

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Hey everyone, thx for your input. Ive read all of the threads on this board about this situation and I asked again to get a clearer picture of what we are talking about here.  Also, I think we can share thoughts on this topic without getting rude so lets try to just examine the points without trying to be right where it demeans the other side.  Out of all the Marvel cameo vs full appearance examples, this one is the most unique.  Because you have the character there and communicating yet in a cocoon(FF 67).  But if he remained in that form, and that form was what he turns out to be, I believe FF 67 is his FULL app.  The problem is, that isnt his actual permanent form.  His humanoid body is.  So if we follow all the other cameos, where they tease the next story with the final panels, the blueprint would make Thor 165 the FULL app and FF 67 the cameo.  

I have read Aggies responses in the other threads on this topic and have to agree, time and intent of the character makes no bearing because we are talking about appearances not the reason they appeared so much later or sooner because exposure of the character is at stake here.  But I agree with Prez that Him's origin had to be retold because it was so long ago that he got introduced, but with that same argument, this links Him back to the original story arc and continues his existence to evolve and grow as a character.

I dont always buy the marketplace argument because its always about supply and demand so if a cameo was very rare and people desired it, the cameo would be more valuable.  Unfortunately, in the Marvel Universe we have no examples of this because people always arent satisfied with a couple panels and they want the full app. This drives demand up and the full app usually is reflected in the marketplace. Yes, this paragraph contradicts itself. Until a cameo is worth more than the full app, the 1st sentence of this paragraph will not be true.

Examples:  1. Hulk 180 & 181
2. Spiderman 299 & 300
3. X-Factor 5 & 6
4. Fantastic Four 48 & 49

So agree or not, the marketplace and I believe the 1st FULL app is Thot 165 unless you value Him the cocoon, then its FF 67.

OK HERE ANOTHER ONE:

Should we value the 1st image appearance of a hero more than the actual 1st appearance?  Ill explain,  Example 1, 1st image app of Captain America in Silver age was Strange Tales 114. 1st actual silver app Avengers 4.  In ST 114 it was an android disguised as Cap. Stan's way of test marketing his comeback.

Example 2, 1st image of Valkyrie is Avengers 83 but it was really Enchantress disguised as her. Her actual 1st app was Inc Hulk 142. Discuss

 

 

 

Capt America.jpg

Valkyrie.jpg

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7 hours ago, brianchew said:

Hey everyone, thx for your input. Ive read all of the threads on this board about this situation and I asked again to get a clearer picture of what we are talking about here.  Also, I think we can share thoughts on this topic without getting rude so lets try to just examine the points without trying to be right where it demeans the other side.  Out of all the Marvel cameo vs full appearance examples, this one is the most unique.  Because you have the character there and communicating yet in a cocoon(FF 67).  But if he remained in that form, and that form was what he turns out to be, I believe FF 67 is his FULL app.  The problem is, that isnt his actual permanent form.  His humanoid body is.  So if we follow all the other cameos, where they tease the next story with the final panels, the blueprint would make Thor 165 the FULL app and FF 67 the cameo.  

I have read Aggies responses in the other threads on this topic and have to agree, time and intent of the character makes no bearing because we are talking about appearances not the reason they appeared so much later or sooner because exposure of the character is at stake here.  But I agree with Prez that Him's origin had to be retold because it was so long ago that he got introduced, but with that same argument, this links Him back to the original story arc and continues his existence to evolve and grow as a character.

I dont always buy the marketplace argument because its always about supply and demand so if a cameo was very rare and people desired it, the cameo would be more valuable.  Unfortunately, in the Marvel Universe we have no examples of this because people always arent satisfied with a couple panels and they want the full app. This drives demand up and the full app usually is reflected in the marketplace. Yes, this paragraph contradicts itself. Until a cameo is worth more than the full app, the 1st sentence of this paragraph will not be true.

Examples:  1. Hulk 180 & 181
2. Spiderman 299 & 300
3. X-Factor 5 & 6
4. Fantastic Four 48 & 49

So agree or not, the marketplace and I believe the 1st FULL app is Thot 165 unless you value Him the cocoon, then its FF 67.

 

Agree...

FF#67 = first FULL appearance of the Cocoon, HIM cameo (check)

THOR#165 = first FULL appearance of HIM (check)

Some people just don't get that the publishing time between issues is irrelevant...

Edited by AGGIEZ
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On 3/2/2017 at 11:00 PM, brianchew said:

 Example 1, 1st image app of Captain America in Silver age was Strange Tales 114. 1st actual silver app Avengers 4.  In ST 114 it was an android the acrobat disguised as Cap. Stan's way of test marketing his comeback.

Fixed that for you  :)

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On 3/3/2017 at 6:50 AM, AGGIEZ said:

Agree...

FF#67 = first FULL appearance of the Cocoon, HIM cameo (check)

THOR#165 = first FULL appearance of HIM (check)

Some people just don't get that the publishing time between issues is irrelevant...

 

The publishing time is definitely relevant. It shows that Marvel has fully established the HIM character in '67 - a full origin story arc with a climactic appearance at the end. HIM's reappearance in '69 is nothing more than a filler story. 

Nobody is disputing that Thor 165 is more valuable. You have fully drawn HIM on cover and a CGC note saying full appearance. It also helps that it has a black cover, tough to find in high grade. It is an easy book to hype and flip in today's market.

Let's be honest to ourselves and call Thor 165 as it is - another book to flip

 

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6 minutes ago, prez said:

Let's be honest to ourselves and call Thor 165 as it is - another book to flip

Not if you want the 1st full appearance, which is what most collectors seem to want these days. 

Obviously your approach works for you. You get to collect the less expensive comic and the one that's more important to you and flip the more expensive one. 

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I think all 3 titles (Fantastic Four,Thor and Marvel Premiere) are needed to get the full "first" appearance of the character. Let the market figure out what's what with value. The character we know today wasn't finished with his appearance until Marvel Premiere #1. 

 

Not every character has a clear cut intro. tied to one issue. Case in point how would determine Mockingbirds first appearance. There was a lot leading up to her in costume. 

 

With Warlock I think all 3 books (FF 67, Thor 165, MP 1) are needed if you want his "first" appearance. Which is most important in the market should come with demand. I'm sure the most valuable to a seller will happen to be which one of those he's selling at the time.

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