General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[DeadOne]

23 minutes ago, Dale Roberts said:

We need to hear other peoples opinions.

A separate thread in Comics General, where the greatest amount of people will see it, created with a poll is probably what Arch was getting at. When that's done, link it here and tag Arch so he easily find it.

[JollyComics]

I tried to sell my books in Cooper/Modern thread.  It's always dead for me.  G/S/B thread is my strong selling point.  How can we turn Cooper/Modern other strong selling point like G/S/B thread?  I sometimes use the link(s) in G/S/B thread so they could see my books in Cooper/Modern thread. It worked well.

[Bird]

6 minutes ago, JollyComics said:

I tried to sell my books in Cooper/Modern thread.  It's always dead for me.  G/S/B thread is my strong selling point.  How can we turn Cooper/Modern other strong selling point like G/S/B thread?  I sometimes use the link(s) in G/S/B thread so they could see my books in Cooper/Modern thread. It worked well.

I think that it is the nature of the beast. GA books are the grooviest and will attract the most eyes. SA is right behind, that wacky SA! Copper/modern has cool books and the majority of my own collection but you can find those books much more readily than you can books in the other thread. Plus we are all getting older and therefore will therefore be looking to the older books. I like the new software n some respects and having 20 threads on the first page is one of them but if it were one large sales forum everything would be falling off the page and getting bumped and it would be chaos. I like Arch's idea of some leeway in the dates but pushing the envelope beyond that seems like a bad idea.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Bird

[Park]

I don't have any issue with some spillover from different ages in sales threads.

Over the past few months that I have been paying attention, it would have affected only a handful of threads. These threads seemed to be like Dale's in that there was a lot of stuff and it makes it easier for the buyers and the seller.

What issue has there been regarding these threads that could potentially have spillover? I am trying to think of something that would be a negative for a buyer or a seller? 

I am all for dropping the mixed forum and letting there be carryover. Quite honestly to me, I could care less if a thread was split 50/50 down the line as far as Gold and Modern. Not being argumentative, but what is the issue there? What am I missing? As a buyer, if I am running through a thread and looking to fill in a run (which I have been doing recently), having to go to another thread because that run went from bronze to copper is silly. Same thing for a seller.

So far, the only reason for not doing this has been that there are rules in place? Ok but what am I missing there as far as problems. The majority of rules have been put in place to address problems. The potential problem I could see here would be everyone would list in G?S?B as that is where the most traffic is. Then why not allow 25% crossover? Essentially, from Copper to Bronze? 

Like I said, I have been poking in a lot of threads recently and I am not seeing this as causing a probem with threads blowing up in G/S/B. And if it does, then do away with the rule and go back the old way. I just don't see a compelling argument against allowing this other than "those are the rules". 

 

[skypinkblu]

1 hour ago, Park said:

I don't have any issue with some spillover from different ages in sales threads.

Over the past few months that I have been paying attention, it would have affected only a handful of threads. These threads seemed to be like Dale's in that there was a lot of stuff and it makes it easier for the buyers and the seller.

What issue has there been regarding these threads that could potentially have spillover? I am trying to think of something that would be a negative for a buyer or a seller? 

I am all for dropping the mixed forum and letting there be carryover. Quite honestly to me, I could care less if a thread was split 50/50 down the line as far as Gold and Modern. Not being argumentative, but what is the issue there? What am I missing? As a buyer, if I am running through a thread and looking to fill in a run (which I have been doing recently), having to go to another thread because that run went from bronze to copper is silly. Same thing for a seller.

So far, the only reason for not doing this has been that there are rules in place? Ok but what am I missing there as far as problems. The majority of rules have been put in place to address problems. The potential problem I could see here would be everyone would list in G?S?B as that is where the most traffic is. Then why not allow 25% crossover? Essentially, from Copper to Bronze? 

Like I said, I have been poking in a lot of threads recently and I am not seeing this as causing a probem with threads blowing up in G/S/B. And if it does, then do away with the rule and go back the old way. I just don't see a compelling argument against allowing this other than "those are the rules". 

 

I was not here when the sales forum was set up. I WAS here when dealers were not allowed. At the time, it seemed that the divisions were set up because the collectors preferred looking just at the genre they collected. There were not so many huge sales from people who wanted to list everything (at least that I recall). 

So if times have changed, maybe the "rules" need to as well.

However, having the rules and allowing "some" spillover, doesn't work because "some" to one is more than it is to someone else and that causes bad feelings.

I just think it makes more sense to do away with the divisions altogether if that is what the poll shows is the preference and @Architecht.agrees.

Since the sales forum is not as busy, it might bring some modern people in who will notice Gold and Silver and some Gold and Silver people in who will see Moderns.  It could always be split again if it becomes a problem.

I just don't like the "some" because with no guidelines it becomes a free for all and complaining ensues. Just like complaining ensues when there are "rules" that are broken.

So leave it and come up with specific dates that are posted, or ditch the divisions altogether. 

Personally, I can see it either way. I rarely look at modern or mixed, but just a few weeks ago I spent a lot of money in mixed because the seller didn't want to do several threads and he followed the rules and put his large thread in Mixed. I noticed the thread because it was highlighted on the right as having activity (and after 2 years I finally got used to looking there;) I PMed a few friends and at least 1 or 2 bought books from the thread, too.

I think Dale's thread would do just as well in mixed, he advertises it as much as he can and it would show activity, so people would spread the word.

But either way works for me. Get rid of the divisions, or just make the dates clearer.

[Park]

8 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

I was not here when the sales forum was set up. I WAS here when dealers were not allowed. At the time, it seemed that the divisions were set up because the collectors preferred looking just at the genre they collected. There were not so many huge sales from people who wanted to list everything (at least that I recall). 

So if times have changed, maybe the "rules" need to as well.

However, having the rules and allowing "some" spillover, doesn't work because "some" to one is more than it is to someone else and that causes bad feelings.

I just think it makes more sense to do away with the divisions altogether if that is what the poll shows is the preference and @Architecht.agrees.

Since the sales forum is not as busy, it might bring some modern people in who will notice Gold and Silver and some Gold and Silver people in who will see Moderns.  It could always be split again if it becomes a problem.

I just don't like the "some" because with no guidelines it becomes a free for all and complaining ensues. Just like complaining ensues when there are "rules" that are broken.

So leave it and come up with specific dates that are posted, or ditch the divisions altogether. 

Personally, I can see it either way. I rarely look at modern or mixed, but just a few weeks ago I spent a lot of money in mixed because the seller didn't want to do several threads and he followed the rules and put his large thread in Mixed. I noticed the thread because it was highlighted on the right as having activity (and after 2 years I finally got used to looking there;) I PMed a few friends and at least 1 or 2 bought books from the thread, too.

I think Dale's thread would do just as well in mixed, he advertises it as much as he can and it would show activity, so people would spread the word.

But either way works for me. Get rid of the divisions, or just make the dates clearer.

I think a rule of 20% Copper spillover into G/S/B would alleviate any issue, if there really is an issue. And I think the spillover should be limited to Copper in the G/S/B section. Modern and Gold? Tough nuts. You get to split or go to mixed.

There is a rabbit hole waiting to be explored as to when we are judging the 20% rule. Black and white has never worked anywhere in the world so there has to be some allowance for a grey area. As in "you know it when you see it" tyep of thing. Seller X is running at 22% in a huge thread? Is that egregious? Seller Y is rolling at 50/50? Drop the hammer.

Now saying that, I know that with this group it is almost an impossibility to play it by ear so the spillover idea is probably toast before it starts. I can already envision page after page of discussion regarding when is a seller at X% and how long can they be at X%. It is hurting my head already.

As to dates for the ages, it can give more definition but I don't know if it solves anything.

At this point, maybe move the order of how the forums are listed and put Mixed on top. I sometimes forget to go there but I can almost guarantee that I would go there first if it were listed first. That is just me of course but after thinking about this for a solid six or seven minutes, it is probably the only thing worth doing.

 

[Bird]

I think moving Bronze to be with Copper makes sense. Or just leave it the way it is. But whatever rules our hosts set up should be followed, not flauntingly ignored.

[skypinkblu]

7 hours ago, Park said:

I think a rule of 20% Copper spillover into G/S/B would alleviate any issue, if there really is an issue. And I think the spillover should be limited to Copper in the G/S/B section. Modern and Gold? Tough nuts. You get to split or go to mixed.

There is a rabbit hole waiting to be explored as to when we are judging the 20% rule. Black and white has never worked anywhere in the world so there has to be some allowance for a grey area. As in "you know it when you see it" tyep of thing. Seller X is running at 22% in a huge thread? Is that egregious? Seller Y is rolling at 50/50? Drop the hammer.

Now saying that, I know that with this group it is almost an impossibility to play it by ear so the spillover idea is probably toast before it starts. I can already envision page after page of discussion regarding when is a seller at X% and how long can they be at X%. It is hurting my head already.

As to dates for the ages, it can give more definition but I don't know if it solves anything.

At this point, maybe move the order of how the forums are listed and put Mixed on top. I sometimes forget to go there but I can almost guarantee that I would go there first if it were listed first. That is just me of course but after thinking about this for a solid six or seven minutes, it is probably the only thing worth doing.

 

First of all, I agree with @DeadOne  If Dale wants to discuss this, then he should start a poll in General.

But to answer your answer;) I'm saying this from the viewpoint of someone who ran some very large offices, with lots of people from the outside involved and "rules". 20% and grey areas are lovely concepts, but they will be impossible to administer. No one will be happy.

If someone with a 20 book sales thread lists 4 copper books, sure...that's easy to see. No problem, but I don't really see people with 20 book sales threads complaining. I see people with HUGE sales threads complaining.

 

Scenario one.   Dale (sorry Dale, not trying to pick on you but you were the one who brought it up). Dale lists 500 books in G/S/B. He's got 101 copper books. First of all, if someone complains the mods (and someone will) they need to COUNT all the books. That's not going to happen with the volunteers so it's going to have to go to the paid Administrators, which is something @Architecht.should consider.

Dale gets a notice, he says "no problem" I just listed another BA book, so it's less than 20%. 

A total waste of time. When with 100 copper books, it would have been easy to start another thread.

Scenario 2. Dale lists 20 modern books in the same G/S/B thread, After all, Copper is allowed, what's  few modern books?

When he's told that's not in the "rules" we start this all over again.

Scenario 3. Dale is told he is over his limit with 101 books, he fixes it. Joe New Guy chimes in..."but I had 10 books with 4 copper books (40%) last week, I got a notice, had you TOLD me that I could add more older books, I would have done it. Why isn't that in the rules? What ARE the rules?

Grey area with one or two books, no problem. When you go to 20% it becomes a PITA.

As someone mentioned last night. If you see a speed sign, does it say 50 MPH but 60 is OK? and 65 is OK if you are someone who knows the mayor?

I repeat, a poll is a great idea. If a lot of people, other than the huge sellers care, let's take down the barriers. Try it that way. Making rules and then having multiple grey areas is nothing more than a recipe for more people getting upset.

[DR.X]

Just remember what would happen back when the old regime was still here and this place was tons of fun. If a newb came in here and posted books in the wrong forum the torches would come out in minutes and it would be open season, and you know it.

[comicdonna]

3 minutes ago, DR.X said:

Just remember what would happen back when the old regime was still here and this place was tons of fun. If a newb came in here and posted books in the wrong forum the torches would come out in minutes and it would be open season, and you know it.

This is a good point.  A few has stated that it wasn't a problem in the past.  That is because they got a free pass, that the new people did not get.  I have seen it many times in the last 14 years.  

[DR.X]

16 hours ago, comicdonna said:

If this happens, people will abuse it.  i say leave it as it is.  

bingo

[DR.X]

1 minute ago, comicdonna said:

This is a good point.  A few has stated that it wasn't a problem in the past.  That is because they got a free pass, that the new people did not get.  I have seen it many times in the last 14 years.  

OMG we all seen it multiple times. people would get run out of here on a rail or the thread would get pulled right away after an azz reaming. you had to walk around in here on egg shells until you were assimilated in Borg like fashion.

[pickycollector]

Waiting for the poll to be created

[telerites]

I know it is subjective and matter of contention but I like having specific dates as cut-offs.  When I load my scans on MySlabbedComics, I categorize my books as 1970-1980 for BA and 1980 and up for CA and eras after that.  My SA starts with the CCA so what is that, 1957?  GA is anything before CCA.   But that is just me and it makes it a lot simpler for me to sort my slabs by just looking at the date or if the CCA is present. 

Then I assume we need to determine for raws, is it on sale date or cover date 

In any event, I personally do not mind an occasional  one or twoer outliers but I also understand where do you draw the line.  I look only in the GA/SA/BA sales forum as I only collect GA books and really don't waste my time with wading through other eras mixed in.  

I like democracy so a poll is great but formulating it may be difficult.  Is it as simple can a seller have outliers (eras) in the sales but determining what the number is (if folks think that is okay) is maze-like.  Also, determining break-out dates for the eras has been fodder of threads here since I joined over 11 years ago and from what I have searched well before that.  

 

[jimjum12]

When it comes to cut off dates for Bronze Age, opinions are very diverse, and most folks just aren't budging. I think OPG and eBay have it around 1984 …. but to me the Copper Age begins with NTT 1, FF 232, etc....  around 1980 … along with the plethora of Indy books that started showing up around then.... and no amount of polling or concensus will change my opinion.  For me, as an adult, I don't mind using 1984, since it was somehow sipped in there and has widespread acceptance amongst the ignorant masses …. and I know a losing battle when I see one. As far as listing two different sales threads being a pain..... what does it really require... click the "new topic" link, cut and paste the rules, and start listing the CA and up books in the correct spot.... not exactly what I call a pain. Personally, I'd rather have BA and CA in the same forum, GA and SA in another, with Modern in a separate area with misc. ….. but no one really cares what I want... and I'm comfortable with that. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Dale Roberts]

10 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

When it comes to cut off dates for Bronze Age, opinions are very diverse, and most folks just aren't budging. I think OPG and eBay have it around 1984 …. but to me the Copper Age begins with NTT 1, FF 232, etc....  around 1980 … along with the plethora of Indy books that started showing up around then.... and no amount of polling or concensus will change my opinion.  For me, as an adult, I don't mind using 1984, since it was somehow sipped in there and has widespread acceptance amongst the ignorant masses …. and I know a losing battle when I see one. As far as listing two different sales threads being a pain..... what does it really require... click the "new topic" link, cut and paste the rules, and start listing the CA and up books in the correct spot.... not exactly what I call a pain. Personally, I'd rather have BA and CA in the same forum, GA and SA in another, with Modern in a separate area with misc. ….. but no one really cares what I want... and I'm comfortable with that. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I care

[Callaway29]

 

10 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

When it comes to cut off dates for Bronze Age, opinions are very diverse, and most folks just aren't budging. I think OPG and eBay have it around 1984 …. but to me the Copper Age begins with NTT 1, FF 232, etc....  around 1980 … along with the plethora of Indy books that started showing up around then.... and no amount of polling or concensus will change my opinion.  For me, as an adult, I don't mind using 1984, since it was somehow sipped in there and has widespread acceptance amongst the ignorant masses …. and I know a losing battle when I see one. As far as listing two different sales threads being a pain..... what does it really require... click the "new topic" link, cut and paste the rules, and start listing the CA and up books in the correct spot.... not exactly what I call a pain. Personally, I'd rather have BA and CA in the same forum, GA and SA in another, with Modern in a separate area with misc. ….. but no one really cares what I want... and I'm comfortable with that. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

This.

[Dale Roberts]

19 hours ago, telerites said:

I know it is subjective and matter of contention but I like having specific dates as cut-offs.  When I load my scans on MySlabbedComics, I categorize my books as 1970-1980 for BA and 1980 and up for CA and eras after that.  My SA starts with the CCA so what is that, 1957?  GA is anything before CCA.   But that is just me and it makes it a lot simpler for me to sort my slabs by just looking at the date or if the CCA is present. 

Then I assume we need to determine for raws, is it on sale date or cover date 

In any event, I personally do not mind an occasional  one or twoer outliers but I also understand where do you draw the line.  I look only in the GA/SA/BA sales forum as I only collect GA books and really don't waste my time with wading through other eras mixed in.  

I like democracy so a poll is great but formulating it may be difficult.  Is it as simple can a seller have outliers (eras) in the sales but determining what the number is (if folks think that is okay) is maze-like.  Also, determining break-out dates for the eras has been fodder of threads here since I joined over 11 years ago and from what I have searched well before that.  

 

If you are going to enforce the policy, it is an absolute must to have specific dates. How can you enforce it when their is no actual date?

I just think the easiest best solution is to let the free market decide. Honestly, whats the difference? We are talking about selling an Amazing Spider-man #259 (12/84) in one thread, and having to start a new thread to sell #260 (1/85). It just doesn't make any sense (or some such example, depending on the date). Does that really bother anyone?

If I am watching a thread to buy stuff, whether as a collector or a guy looking to buy books to sell, I would rather be able to see everything in the same thread. When I used to buy from Foolkiller's sales threads. I might buy a Captain America #100 and an X-Men #266 in back to back posts. It was convenient. It was fun. It made it easy for all of us, buyers and sellers alike. If you don't want the book, how is that any different from any other book that y ou are not interested in (regardless of age). I can understand if someone is listing 100s of copper age books in the wrong forum. That thread should be moved. But for just a few books, who cares? Just pass over the book, and go to the next one.

I've never started a poll. I'm not going to start one here. Arch asked me to post in the thread and start a discussion. That's what I've done. Anyone who wants to start a poll, have at it.

 

[Dale Roberts]

9 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

 

This.

The problem with "this", is you don't get the same views. That's the whole point. More people shop at Wal-Mart, because they have everything. You don't have to buy everything, but it is convenient to have it all in one place.

[telerites]

3 minutes ago, Dale Roberts said:

If you are going to enforce the policy, it is an absolute must to have specific dates. How can you enforce it when their is no actual date?

I just think the easiest best solution is to let the free market decide. Honestly, whats the difference? We are talking about selling an Amazing Spider-man #259 (12/84) in one thread, and having to start a new thread to sell #260 (1/85). It just doesn't make any sense (or some such example, depending on the date). Does that really bother anyone?

If I am watching a thread to buy stuff, whether as a collector or a guy looking to buy books to sell, I would rather be able to see everything in the same thread. When I used to buy from Foolkiller's sales threads. I might buy a Captain America #100 and an X-Men #266 in back to back posts. It was convenient. It was fun. It made it easy for all of us, buyers and sellers alike. If you don't want the book, how is that any different from any other book that y ou are not interested in (regardless of age). I can understand if someone is listing 100s of copper age books in the wrong forum. That thread should be moved. But for just a few books, who cares? Just pass over the book, and go to the next one.

I've never started a poll. I'm not going to start one here. Arch asked me to post in the thread and start a discussion. That's what I've done. Anyone who wants to start a poll, have at it.

 

I agree, Dale.  I was pointing out how difficult a poll would be because there are so many different opinions of when an era begins and ends.  And also if it is okay to post an occasional outlier, what is the number that one can post.  

I am a big fan of yours, especially your service and organization.  I personally am not averse to some outliers but if it gets to be a lot for my personal preference, I would most likely stop perusing the sales thread.  It is just such a nebulous and personal preference area, it makes it difficult with the tools offered here (and that is not a knock on CGC as they offer a marketplace at no cost and no fees).

So with all that said, I don't have an answer and I certainly wouldn't want to try to form a poll.