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Marvel UK Price Variants
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2,571 posts in this topic

Just for some background...(geek alert)

The CGC barcode contains a 26 digit numerical string like this "00048291692162110101377004". The 12th, 13th & 14th places (highlighted) form a 3 digit string that determines many of the characteristics of the book INCLUDING these foreign printings. In this example, "162" is a "Pacific Coast" pedigree book.

A CGC slab with the "U.K. Edition" label would have a 3 digit string of "209" in the 12-14 slot, here's the other foreign editions that are mapped in my codec:

"Australian Edition" is a "027"

"Canadian Edition" is "054"

"Italian Edition" is "264"

My codec is not complete, but I may have to dig out the old bar code scanner and fill in some blanks. I believe there is room to add new items to that field (considering there is 1,000 possible combinations from 000 to 999).

My point is, there is already a data point "holder" defined for these books in their system. We seem to be discussing a modification of the Text String that goes with it and appears on the label.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, bc said:

Just for some background...(geek alert)

The CGC barcode contains a 26 digit numerical string like this "00048291692162110101377004". The 12th, 13th & 14th places (highlighted) form a 3 digit string that determines many of the characteristics of the book INCLUDING these foreign printings. In this example, "162" is a "Pacific Coast" pedigree book.

A CGC slab with the "U.K. Edition" label would have a 3 digit string of "209" in the 12-14 slot, here's the other foreign editions that are mapped in my codec:

"Australian Edition" is a "027"

"Canadian Edition" is "054"

"Italian Edition" is "264"

My codec is not complete, but I may have to dig out the old bar code scanner and fill in some blanks. I believe there is room to add new items to that field (considering there is 1,000 possible combinations from 000 to 999).

My point is, there is already a data point "holder" defined for these books in their system. We seem to be discussing a modification of the Text String that goes with it and appears on the label.

 

 

I'm back. Hastings might be a bent copper. Hope not.

Anyway, the above coding is news to me bc. Is that common knowledge? 

"Italian Edition" further supports my anti-"Edition" stance. No such thing as a first printing Italian price variant. Is there? 

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7 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I'm back. Hastings might be a bent copper. Hope not.

Anyway, the above coding is news to me bc. Is that common knowledge? 

"Italian Edition" further supports my anti-"Edition" stance. No such thing as a first printing Italian price variant. Is there? 

Not sure if it common knowledge, but we had a limited discussion (that fizzled out) a few years back

A few of us consolidated our notes back then, but nothing new has been posted.

-bc

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5 minutes ago, bc said:

Not sure if it common knowledge, but we had a limited discussion (that fizzled out) a few years back

A few of us consolidated our notes back then, but nothing new has been posted.

-bc

Thanks bc. Didn't anyone ask CGC direct?  And do they really do all that work to determine a barcode number? They can't label books right in the first instance half the time :D

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1 minute ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Thanks bc. Didn't anyone ask CGC direct?  And do they really do all that work to determine a barcode number? They can't label books right in the first instance half the time :D

No we didn't ask-sort of a grassroots project. I suspect its something they may consider private IP (like the grading system).

Yes, all that info is in every barcode - just fired up the old scanner and checked my work a few minutes ago. I imagine most of it is check boxes/radio buttons on the screens that they check-in the books and then it follows it through grading and resto checks, etc. When they go to print the label for the slab, the barcode tells the system what text to put on the label.

That's why I made the original comment about the data CGC collects being so valuable compared to their competitors. Good data is king, smart data is money.

Sorry to sidetrack your thread.....

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22 minutes ago, bc said:

No we didn't ask-sort of a grassroots project. I suspect its something they may consider private IP (like the grading system).

Yes, all that info is in every barcode - just fired up the old scanner and checked my work a few minutes ago. I imagine most of it is check boxes/radio buttons on the screens that they check-in the books and then it follows it through grading and resto checks, etc. When they go to print the label for the slab, the barcode tells the system what text to put on the label.

That's why I made the original comment about the data CGC collects being so valuable compared to their competitors. Good data is king, smart data is money.

Sorry to sidetrack your thread.....

That's ok bc. It's dead in here at the best of times so I'm glad of the interaction!

And I'll soon have us back on track with exciting indicia stuff :)

Spoiler

:eek:

 

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So after a few pints thinking about this, if the only issue is the currency on the cover that warrants this "variant" or "Edition" connotation/classification, do we say that a Pound is a variant/Edition of the US Dollar or a Canadian Loonie is a variant/Edition of the US Dollar, etc.?

No, each has a unique name, value, classification and definition.

Just chucking some mental octane on the pyre.....

 

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6 hours ago, bc said:

So after a few pints thinking about this, if the only issue is the currency on the cover that warrants this "variant" or "Edition" connotation/classification, do we say that a Pound is a variant/Edition of the US Dollar or a Canadian Loonie is a variant/Edition of the US Dollar, etc.?

We might if all UK, Canadian, etc currency was "published" in the US, which it ain't. To my mind, the sole factor in classifying pence variants as variants is their relationship to the standard US copies, eg: they were all printed, published, piled up & pushed out as one lot intended for a number of destinations, one of which just happened to be another Anglophone country (or 3). The "vary" part of variant in the case of pence variants only really relates to the indicia. The indicia for all of them has the price in US currency, but the cover price varies in that it is in UK currency.

 

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13 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

How do you rate our chances of this being adopted on a sliding scale of one to ten - ten being 100% successful adoption, one being "shove off"?

I'd estimate the chances as a direct analogy to the ratio of pence variants to standard copies of any silver age key currently in the census.

In a word: slim.

 

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6 hours ago, bc said:

So after a few pints thinking about this, if the only issue is the currency on the cover that warrants this "variant" or "Edition" connotation/classification, do we say that a Pound is a variant/Edition of the US Dollar or a Canadian Loonie is a variant/Edition of the US Dollar, etc.?

No, each has a unique name, value, classification and definition.

Just chucking some mental octane on the pyre.....

 

Morning bc :)

I was trying to get some more participation last night if I'm honest. I accept that people will have different views on this and that's fine. It's difficult to get across a full, definitive description of something with a few words. But the industry needs a few words, as no one wants massive long detailed explanations on their labels. So my choice, as I've stated a few times in this thread and elsewhere, is as follows.

  1. We need to confirm that the books are first printings, that is, that they were produced alongside the cents copies, not later / elsewhere. So the word 'variant' is needed, as that word is generally accepted to mean just that in relation to comics (that is, a variant can only be a variant if it was produced concurrently with the 'original'. Anything else is a reprint or a repacked item)
  2. Then we need to identify the nature of the variance. In this case, predominantly, it's the price (although there are various other differences throughout the 1960-1982 period, all of which I cover in detail in my threads here).
  3. Then we need to identify to which country the price belongs. That will either be the UK, Australia or Canada. There are no other countries that I am aware of that have variants produced specifically for them which were produced at the same time as the cents priced originals. Italian, French, Spanish priced books etc - they are all repackaged books, printed elsewhere at a later date.

In my view, the best way to incorporate those three aspects with the minimum of words is:

  • UK Priced Variant 
  • Canadian Priced Variant 
  • Australian Priced Variant

As Redshade said, it would be great to firm up peoples understanding of pence copies. In an ideal world, and in respect of graded books, CGC would have a page on their site with a glossary explaining these things. It's going to be one of my suggestions to them. Collectors will see the revised label wording, and be able to cross reference it to a page on the main CGC website for further clarification. CGC should do this, as the UK, Canadian and Australian priced variants are products of the US. They are legitimate copies and should have equal status to their cents priced cousins. 

Having said all that, the one thing I would like to achieve, if nothing else, is for CGC to stop labelling UK priced reprints / repackaged books as "UK Editions" alongside the genuine pence priced variants. They have to be labelled differently, or the confusion will not only continue but it will erode the integrity of the census data and normalise a clear misconception. More and more people seem to look to CGC to lead the way now than, say, Overstreet. They have a duty to present accurate assessments and data.  

So I will be running this all by CGC soon. It's of course up to them what they call the books, having considered others input. There are a few permutations of wording that I would be satisfied with. But "UK Edition" isn't one of them, if they are going to lump any book with a pence price under this category.

 

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25 minutes ago, rakehell said:

We might if all UK, Canadian, etc currency was "published" in the US, which it ain't. To my mind, the sole factor in classifying pence variants as variants is their relationship to the standard US copies, eg: they were all printed, published, piled up & pushed out as one lot intended for a number of destinations, one of which just happened to be another Anglophone country (or 3). The "vary" part of variant in the case of pence variants only really relates to the indicia. The indicia for all of them has the price in US currency, but the cover price varies in that it is in UK currency.

Heh heh, I was typing my post above and kept getting notifications from you Robert. Nearly lost the lot!

 

Get your jokes in now :bigsmile:

20 minutes ago, rakehell said:

I'd estimate the chances as a direct analogy to the ratio of pence variants to standard copies of any silver age key currently in the census.

In a word: slim.

We'll see. As I said earlier, I think CGC do want to get it right. I wouldn't have emails from Matt Nelson if he wasn't interested, as I'm sure he has enough to be getting on with. CGC's focus has always been on the US books. There aren't enough people contacting them about pence books, so it's understandable that the position is as it is. But that's they joy of their website, and the global nature of the hobby. We can all play a part building up the knowledge. 

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Here's a further example on the CGC labelling point.

This copy of the UK produced Spider-Man Digest, with repackaged US content, is labelled as "UK Edition", but also this time with the arguably unnecessary additional wording of "Distributed in the United Kingdom". It is labelled as a "UK Edition" even though there is no US Edition:

494438334_UKEdition5.jpg.58fb42d25bcdd9b7b77d78f2d0ecc49f.jpg

So this repackaged book carries the same "UK Edition" identifier as a genuine pence priced variant which cannot be right.

 

This nest copy of the similarly produced "Hulk Pocket Book" has no such "UK Edition" identifier, which is correct. The "Reprints..." wording is also correct. The book is what it is - it is not a "UK Edition" as that suggests a non-UK edition exists. But it is a reprint. So on this example, CGC get it right.

rep.thumb.jpg.f7f1ad8549eb79f55f2aee50e38412cc.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

We'll see. As I said earlier, I think CGC do want to get it right. I wouldn't have emails from Matt Nelson if he wasn't interested, as I'm sure he has enough to be getting on with. CGC's focus has always been on the US books. There aren't enough people contacting them about pence books, so it's understandable that the position is as it is. But that's they joy of their website, and the global nature of the hobby. We can all play a part building up the knowledge.

Fair enough. To be honest, I want them to get it right, once "right" has been definitively determined. I'm just a sarcastic bugger.:bigsmile:

39 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

..you can't call this a "UK Edition"...

av1.thumb.jpg.d58b1f3882cb443cb5faa80155f2fc12.jpg

 

...if you're also going to call this a "UK Edition":

1963538234_UKEdition6.thumb.jpg.9f1487073579cabe82c0232601887aa9.jpg

Ditto that!(thumbsu

 

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2 hours ago, rakehell said:

Fair enough. To be honest, I want them to get it right, once "right" has been definitively determined. I'm just a sarcastic bugger.:bigsmile:

You Robert? Sarcastic? Never! :)*

2 hours ago, rakehell said:

Ditto that!(thumbsu

 

The email has gone in, let's see what happens :wishluck:

 

*That was sarcasm

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4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Here's a further example on the CGC labelling point.

This copy of the UK produced Spider-Man Digest, with repackaged US content, is labelled as "UK Edition", but also this time with the arguably unnecessary additional wording of "Distributed in the United Kingdom". It is labelled as a "UK Edition" even though there is no US Edition:

494438334_UKEdition5.jpg.58fb42d25bcdd9b7b77d78f2d0ecc49f.jpg

So this repackaged book carries the same "UK Edition" identifier as a genuine pence priced variant which cannot be right.

 

This nest copy of the similarly produced "Hulk Pocket Book" has no such "UK Edition" identifier, which is correct. The "Reprints..." wording is also correct. The book is what it is - it is not a "UK Edition" as that suggests a non-UK edition exists. But it is a reprint. So on this example, CGC get it right.

rep.thumb.jpg.f7f1ad8549eb79f55f2aee50e38412cc.jpg

 

Morning Guys (or at least its morning here),

I agree with your earlier post that the "first printing" is one of the key points to establish. I do like the "UK Priced Variant" text description.

I'd really like to be able to check those barcodes above to see the difference in the CGC system. As far as I can tell, the 12th to 14th digit sequence for REPRINTS is "174". 

Now to brew some more tea....

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1 hour ago, bc said:

Morning Guys (or at least its morning here),

I agree with your earlier post that the "first printing" is one of the key points to establish. I do like the "UK Priced Variant" text description.

I'd really like to be able to check those barcodes above to see the difference in the CGC system. As far as I can tell, the 12th to 14th digit sequence for REPRINTS is "174". 

Now to brew some more tea....

Cheers bc. Always time for tea (thumbsu

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