Marvel UK Price Variants 16 16

[Get Marwood & I]

10 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

On 9/22/2020 at 2:20 PM, Antoni Veys said:

One thing I have not yet noticed within these hallowed pages is that early in the run of UK distributed Atlas titles, Journey Into Mystery lagged a month behind Astonish, Suspense and Strange Tales.

The first one I bought was JIM # 68, cover dated May 1961, and I purchased along with it, in my local newsagents, Astonish # 20, Suspense # 18 and Strange Tales # 85, all dated June 1961.

This pattern continued until at least the end of 1961, with the JIM cover date always a month behind.

So it is possible that JIM # 58 was shipped along with the June 1960 issues, having literally missed the boat which carried Astonish # 9 and Suspense # 9., both of which were distributed in the UK, but only in cents versions.

I paid no heed to westerns at the time, but it is possible that Gunsmoke Western was also printed too late to go with the May issues, and was shipped along with those of June.

Anyone else buying in 1960 and 1961 notice the anomaly with JIM?

 

Welcome to the thread Antoni. That's an interesting theory / observation. I'm just in - will respond more fully tomorrow on it (JIM is a funny book in many ways, as it turns out) 

OK, where were we. Oh yes, JIM.

Antoni, I'm too young to have any at the time experience of the late JIM scenario you outline, and have never seen it mentioned before. But I think I have some evidence in my research to support it.

If you read my journal thread on the UKPV T&P indicias...

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/blogs/entry/4927-marvel-ukpvs-thorpe-porter-indicias-june-1960-~-november-1964/

.... you'll see that JIM often presents as an anomaly. If you look at the 'Type 3' summary here...

 

... you'll see that of the four T&P distributed books cover dated December 1960, only JIM #63 has an indicia which features in all other books from January 1961 (Type 4). This is a clear indication that JIM 63 was likely printed last in the sequence and that they changed the indicia format just before doing so.

Also, if we look at those four December 1960 cover dated T&P distributed books over at Mikes Comic Newsstand, the 'on sale' dates, in date order, are:

1. Kid Colt Outlaw #95 - 28th July
2. Strange Tales #79 - 28th July
3. Tales to Astonish #14 - 28th July
4. JIM #63 - 29th August

 

So it's clear that JIM was indeed, for this month at least, 'in arrears' compared to its cover date peers. 

There are a few other aspects to the JIM title which set it aside - number 60 has it's own unique misspelt indicia and is the only September cover dated UKPV, it has more font variants and a few other things which make it the most oddly temperamental book.

As for your JIM / GW #58 comment, don't forget that GW was distributed by L Miller and may have had an entirely different path / distribution area from the T&P JIM #58 once it landed in the UK. They may have been on the same boat of course, but who knows what happened after that!

Thanks for posting @Antoni Veys - I love it when separate anecdotes and observations collide 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/22/2020 at 2:20 PM, Antoni Veys said:

So it is possible that JIM # 58 was shipped along with the June 1960 issues, having literally missed the boat which carried Astonish # 9 and Suspense # 9, both of which were distributed in the UK, but only in cents versions.

Are you reporting this from memory Antoni?

I've looked at these two issues exhaustively down the years in light of Duncan's UKCBPG website comment (see the foot of the website extract below) but have never seen anything to indicate the 'make weight' copies came over? No cover stamps, proliferation of examples compared to surrounding issues etc?

[OtherEric]

51 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

.... joking aside, I'm going to wait until I find a second copy of this book before adding it to the list. Whilst I don't necessarily distrust it, I am wary of images on the GCD which are cropped and which may have been tampered with. Very easy to add that top left corner box to an image like that. So I'll keep looking for a second copy, preferably one in hand. Damn cool though, that, after all this time. 

One thing that occasionally irks me about the GCD is the requirement that the scans be completely cropped.  I get why from an esthetic position, and because it creates a clear set of guidelines for how to present the issue.  But it does mean it's hard not to lose at least slight details.

Edited September 26, 2020 by OtherEric

[Redshade]

46 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

.... joking aside, I'm going to wait until I find a second copy of this book before adding it to the list. Whilst I don't necessarily distrust it, I am wary of images on the GCD which are cropped and which may have been tampered with. Very easy to add that top left corner box to an image like that. So I'll keep looking for a second copy, preferably one in hand. Damn cool though, that, after all this time. 

Such a suspicious cynic thou art Marwood.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Redshade said:

Such a suspicious cynic thou art Marwood.

I have to maintain the integrity of my research Stephen.

Plus, they're all liars out there! 

1 hour ago, OtherEric said:

One thing that occasionally irks me about the GCD is the requirement that the scans be completely cropped.  I get why from an esthetic position, and because it creates a clear set of guidelines for how to present the issue.  But it does mean it's hard not to lose at least slight details.

Yes, I've mentioned before that I offered all my scans but gave up because I found the process so clunky, disagreed with their naming conventions and did not want to crop everything. To me, it's important to be able to see that the comic is indeed a comic. A cropped image on all sides, especially a poor quality one, leaves room for doubt. A great example is the brown font 12c JIM 76 below (on the left):

I wrote to the GCD and advised that it was highly unlikely that the copy was a real book and they agreed. If you can't see the edges, creases etc, you can't say for certain what you're seeing. Not that any book can't be shopped though, cropped or not, but it doesn't help. Let us see the whole thing!

[Garystar]

11 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

What more do you know / recall of the distribution shake up by the way? That's not an area I've looked too deeply into really. I always tend to focus on what exists, the associated connections and nuances, and then draw conclusions and observations from them.

Mostly recollection with some fact: Early 1970s distribution rights for US Marvel comics transferred from T&P to World Distributors. I believe WD were the distributors of US Marvels when MWOM was published in October 1972, a (very) quick search on Ebay shows T&P stamps on Marvels cover dated July 1971 but no T&P stamps on Marvels post August 1971 so I assume this is when the change over occurred.

I started collecting in May 1973 but Marvels were incredibly hard to find, I could find no regular source of Marvels, those I found titles were pretty scattergun and dates ranged from late 1960s to present and were a mixture of 15c T&P, UKPV 1/- and UKPV 6p. Then in December 1973 current UKPV Marvels started appearing in all the newsagents whilst the older T&P ones disappeared. However they only appeared for a few months until March 1974 when only six issues appeared (possibly the six earliest printed for cover date March) then none at all April – July anywhere in UK. In August 1974 UKPV 7p Marvels re-appeared everywhere and were easy to find. However distribution was now aligned with Marvel’s UK B&W reprint and several titles which had UK reprints were no longer available – Avengers, Spider-man, Hulk etc. Spider-man and Hulk had already been non-distributed since 1973, I suspect that once Marvel UK started publication with MWOM in October 1972 Marvel took much more interest in distribution – not from a collector/readers point but from a financial one.

I think I’ll look to getting some UK fanzines from around the early 1970s and see what they have to say. I recall a lot of discontent with the non-appearance of several titles.

[Garystar]

2 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

.... joking aside, I'm going to wait until I find a second copy of this book before adding it to the list. Whilst I don't necessarily distrust it, I am wary of images on the GCD which are cropped and which may have been tampered with. Very easy to add that top left corner box to an image like that. So I'll keep looking for a second copy, preferably one in hand. Damn cool though, that, after all this time. 

I think there's a chance with Sgt Fury #167. It fits the pattern of final issues and same month as the recently found Marvel superheroes #104. It makes some sense that titles with falling sales are sent to UK to find some more buyers and perhaps save them from cancellation. Sgt Fury #167 would have had a declining print run, with UKPV being a small fraction of the overall print then they would be quite scarce. I would have only looked for Sgt fury #167 when i was looking to complete my set, I obviously didn't see any UKPV at the time because mind is cents. I'll keep an eye out now though.  

[Get Marwood & I]

Not a bad price for a pence copy - just this minute sold:

[Kevin.J]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Not a bad price for a pence copy - just this minute sold:

I hope whoever bought that looked at the fees, I bought a few things from them recently totaling £158, actual price after fees £220 and took 5 weeks for them to send the package, never again

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Kevin.J said:

I hope whoever bought that looked at the fees, I bought a few things from them recently totaling £158, actual price after fees £220 and took 5 weeks for them to send the package, never again

The fees always get ya don't they. My last invoice from Compal nearly knocked me off my rocking chair and that was just for a handful of grotty Charlies. 

[Albert Tatlock]

Astonish # 9 and Suspense # 9.,  were definitely available in England. I was not collecting early enough to find them on the newsstands, but I had copies of both, and so did a few other local collectors. I still have the copy of Suspense 9 that i bought in the summer of 1967 from JM Heal of Weston-super-Mare.  This was before any large scale purchases by UK collectors from US sources.

His copies were signed in the top margin of the back cover and I still have many of them.

During the mid 1960s I came across both of them more than once, although they were definitely scarce, but then, so were all the 1960 Atlas issues. 

A couple of stray issues could turn up anywhere, but the May 1960 Astonish and Suspense were about in the sort of quantities that the corresponding no. 10s were, so i am sure that they would have been available at the newsagents at the time.

How about this for a hypothesis... these 2 issues were shipped before it was realised that the customer (T & P) wanted a UK price printing, or maybe it was already too late to alter the printing plates for the cover (the covers were printed in advance of the interior, remember). This was then corrected the following month, by which time the May JIM was also ready and went on sale alongside the June issues.

Suspense 11 never turned up, though, nor Astonish 12 and 13, either pence or cents, but I do have JM Heal's copy of Suspense 12, also purchased in 1967. It is inevitably a cents cover. Any copies of this issue which reached these shores must have been few and far between, and unlikely to have been part of any official distribution, as it as not until I attended Phil Seuling's July Comic Convention 1n 1974 that I was able to fill the late 1960 gaps.

[Albert Tatlock]

The Buyer's Premium charged by the auction houses is a long-running scandal. Excalibur add 31% to the hammer price, but the vendor gets not a penny of it, and also pays Excalibur 20% of the hammer price.

So, the buyer has paid a total of £17,030 for the AF 15. The vendor receives £10.400, and Excalibur pocket £6,630. Nice work for an outlay of zero, they take no risk at all.

Another disturbing facet is that the auction houses try to conceal the additional commission they take from the vendor, by referring to the hammer price as though it were the total sale price, which it clearly is not.

Many items are consigned to auction following bereavements, when the vendors are at their most vulnerable, especially if they are elderly.

There are a few honourable firms who charge no Buyers Premium, or only a reasonable amount, but these are becoming few and far between, and the industry norm is now about 30%. 

If they were honest, the auctioneers would inform their their vendors that they charge 2 commissions, and that the vendor should expect only about 55-60% of the total amount paid by the buyer. 

Not holding my breath, though.

[Get Marwood & I]

23 minutes ago, Antoni Veys said:

How about this for a hypothesis... these 2 issues were shipped before it was realised that the customer (T & P) wanted a UK price printing, or maybe it was already too late to alter the printing plates for the cover (the covers were printed in advance of the interior, remember). This was then corrected the following month, by which time the May JIM was also ready and went on sale alongside the June issues.

I like the way your mind works Antoni. The customer was T&P though and they were quite adept at that point at stamping the cents books they imported with 9d prices (see here). If they could stamp their cents 1959 Charltons and DC's systematically, why wouldn't they have stamped those two Marvels? If they were imported by design, why would they release them into the wild with no UK price indicator on them?

 

[Kevin.J]

18 minutes ago, Antoni Veys said:

The Buyer's Premium charged by the auction houses is a long-running scandal. Excalibur add 31% to the hammer price, but the vendor gets not a penny of it, and also pays Excalibur 20% of the hammer price.

So, the buyer has paid a total of £17,030 for the AF 15. The vendor receives £10.400, and Excalibur pocket £6,630. Nice work for an outlay of zero, they take no risk at all.

Another disturbing facet is that the auction houses try to conceal the additional commission they take from the vendor, by referring to the hammer price as though it were the total sale price, which it clearly is not.

Many items are consigned to auction following bereavements, when the vendors are at their most vulnerable, especially if they are elderly.

There are a few honourable firms who charge no Buyers Premium, or only a reasonable amount, but these are becoming few and far between, and the industry norm is now about 30%. 

If they were honest, the auctioneers would inform their their vendors that they charge 2 commissions, and that the vendor should expect only about 55-60% of the total amount paid by the buyer. 

Not holding my breath, though.

Yeah I buy from COMPAL regular through Saleroom and the fees are high, but I bought from Excaliber through saleroom and assumed  the fees were the same as Compal, big mistake.

The stuff I bought, I could have used BIN now from eBay US and paid the postage to the UK and got it shipped quicker than 5 weeks and it still would have been a lot cheaper

[Albert Tatlock]

Possibly T & P were caught on the hop, not having received anything from Atlas before.

Anyway, I do remember seeing Suspense 9 several times at secondhand outlets during the early to mid 1960s. It was, if anything, more frequently found than Suspense 10. The first few months of Atlas importation were very sketchy, though, and the quantities available did not increase until the summer of 1961, but they were still scarce compared with DC. The Superman and Batman titles swamped everything else, but a few of the mystery titles were very difficult to find, you had to be quick. My local newsagent did not receive copies of every title, just a random selection, so I had to comb the whole area to fill the gaps, and even then had to rely on street markets and secondhand dealers, plus swapping with other kids, to build up a decent collection.

[Kevin.J]

I am missing 15 issues of TOS & 11 issues of TTA, both titles I am missing #9s, I have never came across them before, none graded exist either, it would be nice to see Pence copies of these but I guess if I didnt see them by now, then I doubt I ever will

[Get Marwood & I]

Morning 

We haven't had much in the way of debate in this thread lately so I thought I'd put the cat among the pigeons and see what people think of a thought that has been circling in my mind for a while now.

What would you all think if I proposed that I stopped calling the pence copies of the seven US publishers I've documented 'UK Price Variants' and started calling them 'UK Distribution Variants'?

In doing so we would:

1. Preserve the all important first printing aspect by retaining the key word 'variant'
2. Preserve the unique Country identifier - the UK 
3. Remove any confusion with the 'price variants' of books priced in the same currency / for the same country (e.g. 30/35 Cent Variants)
4. Enhance the salient point of why pence books exist in the first instance - for distribution in the UK
5. Reflect the actual wording of the early UK indicias - both T&P and Miller use the wording '....distribution in the UK'
6. Maintain the distinction between the first printing variants made in the US and any UK locally produced reprint publications
7. Annoy CGC (I did push them over the edge towards UKPVs I suppose)
8. Start a fight

The same could apply to 'Australian Distribution Variants' and 'Canadian Distribution Variants'. 

'Marvel UK Distribution Variants'.....

Seriously, what do you guys think? Is the existing terminology too embedded now do you think for the community to support a change? Give me your thoughts.

 

[Garystar]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Seriously, what do you guys think? Is the existing terminology too embedded now do you think for the community to support a change? Give me your thoughts.

I prefer UK Price Variant. This defines it as nothing but the price being different from the regular US version, whereas UK Distribution Variant might be construed as being something completely different to and produced separately from US version or even UK Produced. I think UK Price variant ties in with terminology of 30c/35c price variants and Canadian price variant both of which are terms used in the hobby.
It’s been an uphill battle to get collectors to understand what UK Price variants are, collectors know what 30c/35c price variants and Canadian price variants are and if UK price variants are going to get acceptance I think it’s best to tag along with these and keep similar naming terminology. 
Although I might be completely wrong. 

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

I prefer UK Price Variant. This defines it as nothing but the price being different from the regular US version, whereas UK Distribution Variant might be construed as being something completely different to and produced separately from US version or even UK Produced. I think UK Price variant ties in with terminology of 30c/35c price variants and Canadian price variant both of which are terms used in the hobby.
It’s been an uphill battle to get collectors to understand what UK Price variants are, collectors know what 30c/35c price variants and Canadian price variants are and if UK price variants are going to get acceptance I think it’s best to tag along with these and keep similar naming terminology. 
Although I might be completely wrong. 

Thanks for being first to reply Gary. It's worth a further discussion I think and your view is as valuable as anyone else's to me. My original thread title was 'Marvel Pence Priced Variants' with the d being quite important I thought to make the distinction between the price variants of the home currency that many were / still are keen on preserving.  Let's see what some others think. There's bound to be a few more opinions once the usual suspects have woken up. 

[Kevin.J]

Whatever they are called they will always be Pence copies to me.

Outside the CGC boards I bet most Americans think they are UK comics, as in printed in the UK no matter what we call them.

As price variants I dont think they will ever be accepted outside the UK except by a few niche collectors.

Lets face it, its only us that care about them anyway