Marvel US Price Font Variations (June 1960 ~ February 1961) 3 3

[Aman619]

One more thing.. to me the "proof" that the variants were not printed here in the states for the other distribs is that if they were, Marvel would have easily done away with the whole white box workaround, and just stripped (created final film) for every price variation worldwide as a knockout from the color plates as they appear in our US printings. (Knockout referring to type that appears white within the artwork itself.)

 

to do that you must have access to the actual color separations shot from the artwork plus the color seps (from Eastern Litho in most cases). Atlas and Marvel paid for that step to produce the US editions.  As cheap as this whole business was all around, the simple method was to do the white box thing and just send the other distribs a dupe set of film... same set to everyone.  Cheap and easy and out of Marvels hands.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

Keep in mind that covers are not printed alongside the interiors.  Or on the same machines in the same place.  But they are assembled on the same machines... newsprint pages folded trimmed then saddle stitched to the covers.

therefore, however they printed the covers, and price and indicia variations, if the interiors were identical for each variant cover, they just load up the cover intake point with all of the covers and separate them later... or pause between each cover variant .

 

Or, they COULD do it that way, ...

and as to why there were two different 10 cent fonts used, I think it relates to why there are white boxes.  The primary covers were the US 10c comics.  But in order to serve their international licensed distribs, I believe they "neutered" the covers to have NO PRICES on them, allowing each market to strip in their own price, and change the indicia if need be.  The way you do that is to "mask out" the US price on the negatives with a black box in same position on all four plates/CMYK.  Being a negative, that black box becomes a white box when printed.  And, being white, or clear when reversed, as positive film, it's an easy fix to add black type price back inside the box.  place a empty white box And there are different 10c versions because there was at least one market that also priced the comics at 10c.  

So in effect, they had to add back the same price that Atlas/marvel used here at home. Using a slightly different font (typefaces were not  nearly as ubiquitous back then. You had to order typesetting from a shop, nobody did it inhouse and choose from the font choices the shop had stocked up on.)

Even though the foreign comics also said 10c, so it feels like they could all have been printed here in the states, I think Atlas/Marvel just didn't want to be responsible for printing someone else's comics, preferring  that the licensed foreign distribs take care the trouble and expense (with no shipping costs) themselves.. in other words take the fee and be done with it.

 

im not sure this is what happened, but it makes sense from a technical basis.

 

Thanks for your thoughts @Aman619 

If I understand you correctly, you're theorising that Marvel produced a second set of copies with white boxes / no price to allow foreign distributors to add their own price at a later time? Whilst that makes sense, it opens up a lot of questions.

If the 9d copies were the product of someone else adding a 9d price to a white box, who was that person, and where were they based - Thorpe & Porter? All the online information I have found suggests that the 9d versions were printed in the US. They (Sparta?) run a set with a 9d price, changed the plates (or whatever the term is) and then run the cents priced copies (or vice versa). The 9d copies were then shipped to Thorpe & porter to distribute in the UK. The US copies were distributed in the US.

Re the 10c variations, if a portion of the run was made with a blank white box, to allow an alternative price to be added, there was (to my knowledge) no other country in the world which used cents where the exchange rate would have lead to a 10c price. So the logical assumption is that the 10c copies were all intended for the US. If they were intended for different regions of the US, again, why change the font if the price is the same? A reasonable assumption would be that the US copies have different price fonts because they were printed in separate places or at separate times / on separate presses in the same place. 

The reason I persist with this is that while there is doubt, there remains the possibility that one of these 10c copies is not part of the 'first printing' run and that, potentially, has significant implications given how collectors perceive the value in first and subsequent printings. I care not one jot about the financial implications personally. The production mechanics interest me and I hate a mystery. Wouldn't it be a laugh if we uncovered something which, say, lead CGC to have to state which version a specific font represented? How can CGC grade two issues of the same comic and make no mention of the fact that one is visibly different to the other? If they differ, there must be a reason. That reason could be something as significant as 'UK Edition' or 'Second Printing' which CGC state currently. Or it could be explained in a way that has no bearing at all (e.g. they're all first printings and the variation is because the guy on the presses was mucking about). 

You are much more conversant with printing techniques than I am Aman, and I appreciate your thoughts. There must be someone out there who worked on the presses and can tell us how, and where things were done. If we keep banging on, maybe one day that person will surface 

 

[Aman619]

How are you sure all were printed in the US?  I must have missed that detail.

however, one overriding factor applies: whatever was done the reason was because it was the cheapest solution at the time. If all versions were in fact printed here in the US at Sparta, perhaps the big clue is the short 5 month period we are seeing the three versions.  That they juryrigged a solution that led to what we are trying to unravel for just a short while until they figured out a cheaper more efficient way.

Let's say Atlas is producing comics solely for the US for years.  Then they make a deal for Thorpe, and they agree to produce and ship them their comics.  Then at some point later on, they need more 10c cover priced copies Sparta would still have the plates, so the new 10c should look same as the first printed US copies.  Or, maybe as I have heard happen back then, the original plates are unusable again.  In this case they'd figure out the cheapest way to go... and that may have been to edit the U.K. Film.

overall I agree wth your goal to determine the order of the printings as the hobby is moving in that direction for all ages, 

[Get Marwood & I]

16 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

How are you sure all were printed in the US?  I must have missed that detail.

however, one overriding factor applies: whatever was done the reason was because it was the cheapest solution at the time. If all versions were in fact printed here in the US at Sparta, perhaps the big clue is the short 5 month period we are seeing the three versions.  That they juryrigged a solution that led to what we are trying to unravel for just a short while until they figured out a cheaper more efficient way.

Let's say Atlas is producing comics solely for the US for years.  Then they make a deal for Thorpe, and they agree to produce and ship them their comics.  Then at some point later on, they need more 10c cover priced copies Sparta would still have the plates, so the new 10c should look same as the first printed US copies.  Or, maybe as I have heard happen back then, the original plates are unusable again.  In this case they'd figure out the cheapest way to go... and that may have been to edit the U.K. Film.

overall I agree wth your goal to determine the order of the printings as the hobby is moving in that direction for all ages, 

I'm not sure they were, that's just what every other online comment I've ever seen has inferred. The reason is likely to be so simple and obvious, once we know it. I just wish we did!

[Aman619]

It's going to be hard to get the answer from someone who actually was there. Assuming a kid on the press run was 20 in 1960, he is 77 now and long out of comics biz. Stan would know, having made the deals, perhaps, but they say he's getting frailer.

[Get Marwood & I]

4 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

It's going to be hard to get the answer from someone who actually was there. Assuming a kid on the press run was 20 in 1960, he is 77 now and long out of comics biz. Stan would know, having made the deals, perhaps, but they say he's getting frailer.

You might be right. There must be someone on here who knows someone, or even who has contact with Stan. Maybe ask him at a signing. I tried writing to Steve Ditko and he wished me goodnight.  Maybe I could try writing to Stan but I doubt it would get to him even, nevermind him actually replying. 

[Aman619]

Stan only replies in one sentence answers now... because, in reality, so much of this is in his faraway past... just not that important.

[Get Marwood & I]

45 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

Stan only replies in one sentence answers now... because, in reality, so much of this is in his faraway past... just not that important.

I don't doubt it. Some one will chime in with the answer one day, I just know it.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 2017-5-20 at 8:48 PM, Marwood & I said:

I don't doubt it. Some one will chime in with the answer one day, I just know it.

[Get Marwood & I]

[Get Marwood & I]

Hello.

Here are two copies of Battle #70 from June 1960, the last issue of the title. One 'bold' font, and one 'tall' font:

 

It's not a particularly common book in Englandville, and I live in hope that a Pence Copy may exist (much like Wyatt Earp #29 which was also the last issue in the title before a long lay off, and just snuck into the pence date range).

I've only seen one indicia so far - here it is, the 'tall' font copy:

 

I'd be interested to see if the bold font copy has the same indicia or whether it has a Thorpe & Porter line as many of these font variations do. Anyone got a copy?

Great cover by the way isn't it. Here they are in full (both lifted from the web):

Bold Font Copy

 

Tall Font Copy

 

Will we ever learn the truth.....?

[mikeyc67]

Hi I was looking for explanation of this too - I have three different cents copies as well as 9d copy for Rawhide Kid # 17

 

[Get Marwood & I]

25 minutes ago, mikeyc67 said:

Hi I was looking for explanation of this too - I have three different cents copies as well as 9d copy for Rawhide Kid # 17

 

Wow! Where have you been hiding @mikeyc67 !?!?!

You own those four RHK #17s ? Fa-bu-lous my friend 

I thought I was doing well with my two copies!

 

Now you've found me, a few questions if I may:

First up, could you check whether your pence RHK is an L Miller distributed copy please? If you check out the last post in my thread here, you'll see why I'm asking:

 

Secondly, do you have any other copies of RHK (cents of pence), notably 18 through to 25? If so, are any L Miller distributed copies?

Finally, what made you collect all three cent variations - you must have had an interest in the font differences to do so? Any theories on why these exist? I'm convinced it has something to do with the introduction of UK distributed copies. The font variations start in June 1960, one month after pence copies commence. So much happens in this short time - maybe the introduction of L Miller / Thorpe & Porter as UK distributors is the reason we see different cent fonts and cent priced copies with Thorpe & Porter indicia's? It's a crazy period.

Anyway, thanks for responding. I don't get much interest in these threads so it's a treat to have someone join the fray - especially with such lovely pictures 

Cheers, Steve

[mikeyc67]

Hi Steve

I actually have another two RHK # 17's but no more variants! Love the cover. 

Started picking up Kirby westerns a couple of years ago - favourites are the Gunsmoke Westerns - # 66 in particular - have a nice clean pence copy and Kid Colt # 100 nice pence copy for that too.

The pence copy of the RHK # 17 is exclusively printed for L Miller.

I have RHK #'s 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and 25. # 25 is pence copy also exclusively printed. #'s 19, 20 and 23 are cents copies with pence stamps (9d for 23 and 6d for 19 and 20) exclusively printed for L Miller.

Your research and its presentation is very impressive. 

Cheers

Mikey

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

9 hours ago, mikeyc67 said:

Hi Steve

I actually have another two RHK # 17's but no more variants! Love the cover. 

Started picking up Kirby westerns a couple of years ago - favourites are the Gunsmoke Westerns - # 66 in particular - have a nice clean pence copy and Kid Colt # 100 nice pence copy for that too.

The pence copy of the RHK # 17 is exclusively printed for L Miller.

I have RHK #'s 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and 25. # 25 is pence copy also exclusively printed. #'s 19, 20 and 23 are cents copies with pence stamps (9d for 23 and 6d for 19 and 20) exclusively printed for L Miller.

Your research and its presentation is very impressive. 

Cheers

Mikey

 

@mikeyc67

Thanks for the kind words Mikey - I'm so pleased you dropped by 

If you check the 'about me' page of my profile you'll see that your posts here cross three of the threads I dabble in - Font Variations, L Miller copies and Marvel Pence Price Variants. 

In my Pence Variants thread here...

 

...you'll see that I have posted a 'missing list' of those pence comics which I think should exist but have yet to find a copy of:

 

RHK #25 is on there - could you post a scan of your pence printed copy so I can add it to the list please?

Regarding your cent copy L Miller 20 and 23 - and I know this is a big request - is there any chance you could take a picture of the indicia pages showing the L Miller straplines? No worries if not, it's just great to know they're out there. 

If you read through my Pence thread you'll see lots more western copies. If you have any other titles on my missing list above, do let me know.

Cheers Mikey!

P.S. and please give me first refusal if you ever decide to sell the Millers won't you! 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 19/05/2017 at 2:37 PM, Marwood & I said:

Hello Friends of Obscure and Unexplained Price Font Variations!

It’s taken me some time to recover from being told by Steve Ditko that price font variations for early Marvel comics are, and I quote, “not some CRIME NEVER to be done. The problem is TRIVIAL”.

I like Steve Ditko. He is one cool, if slightly cranky fellow 

Putting to one side his cruel disinterest in my question, the fact remains that we still don’t seem to know (or care?) why there are early Marvel comics with different fonts being used for the same US prices.

During the Dog Like Sparky car crash years  I speculated in detail as to why these variations may exist and came up with some detailed, but extremely tedious observations.

There are two aspects which I think are noteworthy however.

1. For the period June 1960 to February 1961, some US original cents priced titles have multiple fonts for the same priced issues.

I would love to know why this is the case. I do not now believe the variations infer second printings, as it is widely documented that Marvel comics in this era were hugely over-printed so there would be no call for a further printing. I have found no evidence that the different issues were printed in different locations. Because the prices are the same, there is no reason to suggest the different copies were intended for different markets or regions. 10c is 10c, so why would we need to have these differences?

    

       2. For the period January 1961 to March 1961, every US original that I have found, pence or cents, carries the Thorpe & Porter distribution indicia line.

If you asked most people about Thorpe & Porter, they would say that they handled the distribution of Marvels into the UK. It is for this reason that early pence priced Marvels often carry an additional "Sole Distributors In The United Kingdom - Thorpe & Porter Ltd” strap line under their indicias. What I cannot understand is why the T&P indicia line exists on all copies that I have found, cents or pence, during the period stated? Surely it would only appear on those pence priced copies intended for the UK, and any US bound issues would not have it? If any of you in the US have cent priced Marvels around these dates, check the indicias and see if they have a Thorpe & Porter distribution line.

 

Here are some charts I put together for two of the titles crossing the dates involved. I have charts for 6 titles, but these two will do for now so you get the point. You’ll see that I show the price type (pence / cents), any font variation and what indicia details exist. These are all from copies lifted from the web, notably Ebay USA (where you would expect the majority of listed comics to be home grown US destined copies).

 

 

If anyone would like to join the debate as to why these variations exist, or why US cents copies have T&P indicia data, please dive in. I am no expert, I just like to document what I find / see. I’m hoping some of you guys will know yourselves, or know industry figures who may be able to shed some light on this.

I’m sure some of you reading this will be thinking “So what. Who cares if there are variations”, and I get that, but there is so little ‘new’ information or outstanding questions relating to old comics to find nowadays that I thought this was worth pursuing.

Anyway, as Thomas Crown once said, what else can we do on a Sunday? Except it's Friday. 

Cheers! 

I was about to regale you all with another round of deathly tedious exciting information about font variations but I seem to have mislaid my summary documents. 

 

Bugger.

[Get Marwood & I]

Afternoon.

For those of you that think my sole board purpose in life is to mither CGC about Newton Rings, bother Admin about Journals and bore everyone with pence research I'd like to remind you that I can also bore you to tears with price font research 

 

In the rather alluring folders above sits this fetching spreadsheet which is tracking all 20 Marvel books published in the shown date range and recording all the known price font variations. 

 

There is a tangible link, oddly enough (given it's me) to the presence or otherwise of pence priced books and I think I may be onto something. So watch this space, as a huge pile of pontification is coming soon. I may dress it up in wistful nonsense, if the mood takes me. 

Now on my screen is a red wiggly line under pontification. Is pontification not a word? And if so, why not? What is wrong with pontification? Is it not just pontificating with a ion instead of a ing? We need answers.

And why we're on the subject of answers, guess what response I got from CGC to this:

 

Ha! you was going to say 'none' wasn't you. Well you're wrong.

Here's what they said:

"Dear Steve, thank you for your question. We found it stultifyingly boring and all felt the urge to kill ourselves when it arrived and stunk up our inbox. But it did serve a purpose, as we printed off a copy and rolled it up into a cone. We sent it to the London Office and when you next pop in they have orders to shove it up your . Now will your please just   off."

Firm but fair. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Afternoon 

In my MPPV thread post here I speculate on the link between the font variations and the presence of pence printed copies:

 

As I work further into the detail, each title seems to back up the theory that the presence of this 'bold fonted' US Cents price  is a good indicator of whether a 9d pence price will exist or not. In the reverse, the absence of a pence copy indicates no US font variations. Here's RHK, sitting alongside the Patsy titles (NOPE means no pence edition found / known):

 

I know for a fact that there are no 9d pence copies for RHK 18-20 as these are L Miller indicia variant books. Where the pence copy appears - number 17 (also a Miller indicia, see my Miller thread for the explanation) - there are multiple US fonts, including on this occasion the 'bold' one. 

It's funny how I have commenced separate research on Pence Books, L Miller Variants and Font Variants and then all three have crossed over together in this case. When I have completed the font spreadsheet for all the eligible 20 titles I'll summarise my thoughts and observations. There is at least one title which undermines the theories, unless of course the 'gap' means an as yet undiscovered pence copy. But my research has shown me that there are often anomalies which make no sense and disturb an otherwise soundly observed pattern.

It could be though that I'll be able to state with close to near certainty which 9d priced books will never be found, if the patterns hold true throughout 

Additionally, it could help to explain why certain cents copies have the multiple fonts - maybe the bold font was run first, struck out for a 9d price run and then, for reasons unknown, a further run of cents copies were added. In the case of RHK, three changes were made during the run as four different fonts/prices exist. Speculating, maybe this happened:

1. Bold US cents copies run off 
2. Pence plate added, then those copies run off 
3. Whoops! We didn't run enough cents. New plate added 
4. Damn, the price plate broke midway through. Add another 

One other explanation that makes sense - RHK 17 was so popular as a relaunch that a second and third print run was undertaken. But there is no evidence of this - the common view seems to be for the era that if anything, too many books were printed first time round. 

Or - the title was printed over different days. Or sites. Or both. If I had 100K comics to run off as a printer, would it always follow that they would be done on the same day? Half today, half tomorrow? But why a different price plate if so? It's got to be something to do with the pence books.

Is there another explanation? 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

15 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

But my research has shown me that there are often anomalies which make no sense and disturb an otherwise soundly observed pattern

Looking at Kid Colt, the idea that the bold cents font means they'll be no pence copy is looking great for issues 90, 92, 93 and 94. That missing pence pattern matches other titles exactly by date incidentally. 91 and 96 have pence copies, and a different non-bold cents font.

But, annoyingly, 95 sods it all up with a pence copy and a bold cents font presence:

[Gnasher]

Righty-o, I've been trawling through the read on line site for the JIM's & ST's examples that you've given, JIM  65 is the only one I can add to, providing you haven't already found it...

 

So no T&P