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Marvel US Price Font Variations (June 1960 ~ February 1961)
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127 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I just felt that I should respond to let you know I was keeping up with the thread :foryou:lol 

Stop mucking about Mark. This is deadly serious stuff. Ditko thought so anyway, God rest his cranky soul....:eek:

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Oh, there you are.

I can't hardly remember what was going on in here now, truth be told. A leaky memory is a terrible thing isn't it :p

A leaky mem, oh forget it.

Poor old Steve is dead now, so here's the full un-redacted letter he sent me about the font variants I asked him about two years ago:

sdl2.thumb.jpg.c43c49ebb87cccc3f2d078851736eea2.jpg

 

This is the letter I sent him by the way, crude as you like (he sent it back with his reply):

sdl3.thumb.jpg.86213e574d3d8c82f6f4073ddfcf69cb.jpg

I can't remember if I've posted that already. I like that he homed in on the 9d copy. Foreign Country indeed. God rest his cranky soul. If it wasn't for him I may not be here now, pottering about with comics. When I'm gone, no one will give two hoots. He left his mark forever. Well, until we blow ourselves up that is, and then have to start all over again.

As for the font research, I parked that while I concentrated on the pence indicia work (see Marvel pence thread). The two cross over, as the copies with font variations clash with pence issues, indicia types etc. I'm trying to work out how to present it all. There's definitely something there I think, but it will probably only appeal to TMAADLS. The other issue is that I tend to forget where I got to, if I stay away from it for too long. So it's like a rediscovery each time I revisit it.

OK, I'm rambling, probably repeating myself, likely boring everyone and dying on the inside*

Wish me luck :)

 

*English humour

 

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35 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

sdl2.thumb.jpg.c43c49ebb87cccc3f2d078851736eea2.jpg

 

This is the letter I sent him by the way, crude as you like (he sent it back with his reply):

sdl3.thumb.jpg.86213e574d3d8c82f6f4073ddfcf69cb.jpg

The date on Ditko's reply back to you on his letter is January 14, 2017

Your initial letter to him is dated June 1, 2017?

I knew Ditko was ahead of his time, but never knew he had talent to predict the future!

NOSTRODITKO!

 

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3 minutes ago, DanCooper said:

The date on Ditko's reply back to you on his letter is January 14, 2017

Your initial letter to him is dated June 1, 2017?

I knew Ditko was ahead of his time, but never knew he had talent to predict the future!

NOSTRODITKO!

 

I bet he could Dan :)

But we here in Englandville do the day first, month second. So my letter is the 6th of January. He replied very quickly, bless him.  

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3 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I bet he could Dan :)

But we here in Englandville do the day first, month second. So my letter is the 6th of January. He replied very quickly, bless him.  

Ahhhh, ANOTHER mystery solved! Thank you!

Did not know you were from "across the pond"

Please carry on with the topic as I head over to the Bigfoot and JFK conspiracy boards!

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Morning :)

I updated my font summary chart this morning, following the recent discovery of these two pence copies of Journey into Mystery #64 and 65:

64.thumb.jpg.24dd010863af881ae93aaa0ec7c0c176.jpg  65.thumb.jpg.006d2d320730baf4276eb191c71696e9.jpg

Here it is:

jim.PNG.501e2075b8c6aa2806f42c5ec07ca296.PNG

 

Only JIM #61 is missing a pence copy now. You can't say it won't ever appear because of the presence of the single bold fonted US 10c copy, as pence versions exist for #58 and 60 which also have that font type. But then again, JIM always seems to buck the trend (see pence thread for indicia research - especially JIM #60!).

I had some interesting discussions with @Aman619 in my pence thread earlier this week, and the subject of how things were printed again came up. When I look at the picture above I can see how with JIM #58, the cents copies would have been run first as the cents price is printed white, presumably having been etched out of the overall red background colour plate. To print the 9d pence copies, I presume that the 10c price was scratched out to form a square, and a 9d raised plate was inserted to print the 9d price. I'm theorising, but that seems to make sense. 

So when I look at issues 62 to 65, and I note that no solid bold font 10c priced copy seems to exist for any of them, I'm left wondering why the cents copies do not follow the #58 scenario, namely, a bold white 10c font in the background colour. Why would the cents copies sit in a white square box when that appearance always seems to indicate that something previous was removed? Here's my theory.

All marvels up until April 1960 carried this bold fonted cents cover price 2113898648_60USFatcrop.PNG.088e2189c2d654ebde1e18bbbf60cfbb.PNG either black on white or white within the background colour of the cover.

So the printers would have been using that for years. Same price, same font, year after year. Then one day, they get a direction to produce some 9d priced copies. So they do the logical thing - scratch out the primary 10c price from the production plate and add a 9d raised price. Hence the white box, 9d price where the cover background is coloured. But one day they get the order wrong and scratch out the 10c price to add the 9d plate and run the pence copies. Realising they haven't run the cents copies yet, they add a raised 10c price. So the end result is all copies have a white box on the covers with a 9d or 10c price. 

What other explanation could there be for the absence of bold fonted 10c cover prices? Why would you scratch out a white box / 10c price when previous standard practice was for a black price on white, or a white price sitting in a colour background?

The fact that there are no fewer than 7 types of Thorpe & Porter indicias in a short window of time indicates that there was no consistency during this period. It seems to have been very random and haphazard, with every issue feeling like it was 'the first time they had been asked to vary the regular cents production process'. 

Does the absence of 10c bold fonted copies of JIM #62-65 (and other titles on my chart) indicate that the 9d copies were printed first? Otherwise, would not the cents copies follow the JIM #58 format?

Could this explain why there is anecdotal evidence that some pence copies appear to have stronger colouring, better paperstock? Could this be why people such as Cuck Rozanski (I know, I know) say that they were told that pence books were printed first?

It seems to me that maybe some were, and some weren't during this period of change. What does anyone reading think?

Disclaimer: I am not trying to promote or 'pimp' pence books. I have none to sell. I'm am simply trying to make sense of these variations and identify what actually happened. These are some of the most researched, collected and desirable books in all of comic history. And we don't know why these variations exist or, in the case of pence / cents copies, which came first!

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@Brittany M. @CGC Comics

Hello Brittany! :)

I hope you'll forgive my calling you to this thread. I'm doing so because you are held in high regard here, having proven yourself to be a person who always responds, who gets things done and who promotes doing the right thing! So I'm looking for your help.

The CGC boards are a fabulous, free resource for the comic community. Yes, they exist in part to promote the CGC grading process but they are one of the most extensive comic resources online and have the greatest knowledge base buried in its membership. If you have a comic related question, you will find the answer here - or at least have a good debate about it!

I think it is important for CGC to promote the highest level of accuracy when it comes to the identification of comics that pass through their grading process. Books must be correctly identified to preserve the integrity of the census and associated records. So I'm hoping that you will try to help us find out why some early Marvel comics between the dates of June 1960 and February 1961 have different US price fonts.

To illustrate, Rawhide Kid #17 - a Western 'key' of some value and importance to collectors - has three different US 10c price fonts as follows:

rk2.jpg.58f52a1f5d4f11bb8563b7dc2513d804.jpg rk1.jpg.39f0025ba3b6179095768b36ddf4c4ff.jpg rk3.jpg.17a62b70f786ebbbeecfe632de138f59.jpg 

Currently, no one appears to know why these variations exist and no conclusive explanation has been forthcoming in this thread. The presence of these variations opens the possibility that one or more of the books may be subsequent printings, or printed for a market other than the US. If proven, that could have significant implications to collectors and it would be important for the CGC grading process to recognise that.

So, the point of my post here is to ask you to share this request, if you would, with your expert colleagues to see if anyone can explain the differences in price fonts and articulate any associated impact on how they should be treated / labelled when graded. It stands to reason that CGC staff will have greater access to industry contacts and also a legitimate reason to seek the answer, given that you are currently, it could be argued, grading these books without understanding why they differ.

Would you be able to help with this? I would have thought that the grading team would be keen to get to the bottom of this themselves and it seems odd that this question is still outstanding after so many years of these books being under the spotlight.

Even if the end result is "no body knows I'm afraid, so CGC will continue to treat all variations as first printings" we will at least have tried.

I hope you'll be able to help :wishluck:

Cheers, Steve

 

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Well it's three o'clock in the morning and I still can't get to sleep. What's the saying? "Insomnia ain't what it used to be". Or perhaps not?

Steve I'll be interested in the reply, if any, that you receive regarding this query.

I agree as has been stated elsewhere that if a publisher gives a job to a printer to produce 200,000 copies of a comic and the run starts late in the day and they stop the presses and continue in the morning that they are all first prints.

But, there is no way that the shift that starts in the morning will just arbitrarily change the font on the price box. I mean no way.

The only possible explanation that would satisfy me is that the original printing company sub-contracted the printing plates/stats (or whatever method was used) to another print shop and that the original plates were sans price which was added by the various sub-contractors.

So to my way of thinking all these comics were part of the same contract between the publisher and the printer(s) and are therefore all first editions.

Just my tuppence-worth.

Edited by Redshade
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7 hours ago, Redshade said:

Well it's three o'clock in the morning and I still can't get to sleep. What's the saying? "Insomnia ain't what it used to be". Or perhaps not?

Steve I'll be interested in the reply, if any, that you receive regarding this query.

I agree as has been stated elsewhere that if a publisher gives a job to a printer to produce 200,000 copies of a comic and the run starts late in the day and they stop the presses and continue in the morning that they are all first prints.

But, there is no way that the shift that starts in the morning will just arbitrarily change the font on the price box. I mean no way.

The only possible explanation that would satisfy me is that the original printing company sub-contracted the printing plates/stats (or whatever method was used) to another print shop and that the original plates were sans price which was added by the various sub-contractors.

So to my way of thinking all these comics were part of the same contract between the publisher and the printer(s) and are therefore all first editions.

Just my tuppence-worth.

All theories are welcome Stephen, and that's as good as any even though there is not one scintilla of information that I've ever seen to support it. Stepping back from all the theories, the simple fact is that the same book (RHK #17) has four variations - one pence copy and three cents with different fonts.  It is really difficult to imagine how those four variations were the product of one singular print job in the same location. RHK #17 was a popular book, so a reprint wouldn't be beyond the limits of credulity. And yet, again, no such information exists or is implied anywhere that I can see. Quite the opposite in fact - all books from this time were allegedly overprinted in the first place. And remember, from my research, there are 12 other books with these cents font variations, none of which fit an obvious 'we need a reprint' scenario.

So lets hope that Brittany takes up the challenge. Someone out there must know. The answer may be convoluted, simple, or ridiculous. Or a mix of the three. But someone must know, and I think that asking CGC personnel to take up the challenge is a good way of finding that person :wishluck: 

Imagine how cool it would be to discover something meaningful about these books, 60 years after they've been analysed to death...

 

 

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On 1/30/2019 at 6:45 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Oh, there you are.

I can't hardly remember what was going on in here now, truth be told. A leaky memory is a terrible thing isn't it :p

A leaky mem, oh forget it.

Poor old Steve is dead now, so here's the full un-redacted letter he sent me about the font variants I asked him about two years ago:

sdl2.thumb.jpg.c43c49ebb87cccc3f2d078851736eea2.jpg

 

This is the letter I sent him by the way, crude as you like (he sent it back with his reply):

sdl3.thumb.jpg.86213e574d3d8c82f6f4073ddfcf69cb.jpg

I can't remember if I've posted that already. I like that he homed in on the 9d copy. Foreign Country indeed. God rest his cranky soul. If it wasn't for him I may not be here now, pottering about with comics. When I'm gone, no one will give two hoots. He left his mark forever. Well, until we blow ourselves up that is, and then have to start all over again.

As for the font research, I parked that while I concentrated on the pence indicia work (see Marvel pence thread). The two cross over, as the copies with font variations clash with pence issues, indicia types etc. I'm trying to work out how to present it all. There's definitely something there I think, but it will probably only appeal to TMAADLS. The other issue is that I tend to forget where I got to, if I stay away from it for too long. So it's like a rediscovery each time I revisit it.

OK, I'm rambling, probably repeating myself, likely boring everyone and dying on the inside*

Wish me luck :)

 

*English humour

 

These to and from letters to Ditko are great , he was a bit snarky in his reply to you MarWood🤔🤔 bless his soul👏💚💥

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3 minutes ago, FoggyNelson said:

These to and from letters to Ditko are great , he was a bit snarky in his reply to you MarWood🤔🤔 bless his soul👏💚💥

I love the way he sent me back my letter, and circled the two prices:

Capture.PNG.00fb6ca0498b58d987f79a8b82b6271f.PNG

1 minute ago, FoggyNelson said:

This is excellent thread , very good reading 👍👍 an much appreciated ‼️🎂🥰

Cheers Fog :)

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On 4/13/2019 at 9:27 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

@Brittany M. @CGC Comics

Hello Brittany! :)

I hope you'll forgive my calling you to this thread. I'm doing so because you are held in high regard here, having proven yourself to be a person who always responds, who gets things done and who promotes doing the right thing! So I'm looking for your help.

The CGC boards are a fabulous, free resource for the comic community. Yes, they exist in part to promote the CGC grading process but they are one of the most extensive comic resources online and have the greatest knowledge base buried in its membership. If you have a comic related question, you will find the answer here - or at least have a good debate about it!

I think it is important for CGC to promote the highest level of accuracy when it comes to the identification of comics that pass through their grading process. Books must be correctly identified to preserve the integrity of the census and associated records. So I'm hoping that you will try to help us find out why some early Marvel comics between the dates of June 1960 and February 1961 have different US price fonts.

To illustrate, Rawhide Kid #17 - a Western 'key' of some value and importance to collectors - has three different US 10c price fonts as follows:

rk2.jpg.58f52a1f5d4f11bb8563b7dc2513d804.jpg rk1.jpg.39f0025ba3b6179095768b36ddf4c4ff.jpg rk3.jpg.17a62b70f786ebbbeecfe632de138f59.jpg 

Currently, no one appears to know why these variations exist and no conclusive explanation has been forthcoming in this thread. The presence of these variations opens the possibility that one or more of the books may be subsequent printings, or printed for a market other than the US. If proven, that could have significant implications to collectors and it would be important for the CGC grading process to recognise that.

So, the point of my post here is to ask you to share this request, if you would, with your expert colleagues to see if anyone can explain the differences in price fonts and articulate any associated impact on how they should be treated / labelled when graded. It stands to reason that CGC staff will have greater access to industry contacts and also a legitimate reason to seek the answer, given that you are currently, it could be argued, grading these books without understanding why they differ.

Would you be able to help with this? I would have thought that the grading team would be keen to get to the bottom of this themselves and it seems odd that this question is still outstanding after so many years of these books being under the spotlight.

Even if the end result is "no body knows I'm afraid, so CGC will continue to treat all variations as first printings" we will at least have tried.

I hope you'll be able to help :wishluck:

Cheers, Steve

 

I don't want you to think I haven't seen this!  I submitted the entire post to the graders and hopefully will have an answer soon!  Sorry for the delay!  @Get Marwood & I

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1 minute ago, Brittany M. said:

I don't want you to think I haven't seen this!  I submitted the entire post to the graders and hopefully will have an answer soon!  Sorry for the delay!  @Get Marwood & I

:headbang:

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22 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

:headbang:

I'm following this thread just to see what the CGC chaps come up with re the font variations Steve.

In passing I noticed that the Grand Comics Database does not yet have images of the two pence variants that you show above, JIM nos 64 and 65.

I wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to effect such an undertaking but perhaps you or someone else on here could apprise the GCD people of the existence of said issues?

Edited by Redshade
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57 minutes ago, Redshade said:

I'm following this thread just to see what the CGC chaps come up with re the font variations Steve.

In passing I noticed that the Grand Comics Database does not yet have images of the two pence variants that you show above, JIM nos 64 and 65.

I wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to effect such an undertaking but perhaps you or someone else on here apprise the GCD people of the existence of said issues?

I joined the GCD last year and told them I had five thousand images to upload. And not just pence copies. They allowed me to post one image at a time which I had to wait for authorisation on. Then they said I had categorised it wrong. Then they argued among themselves about the classification. Then they asked me to crop all images. So I gave up, as it was too much like hard work. And I never heard from them again. Great site, great endeavour, and definitely one I'd want to support, but too hard to engage with clunky unintuitive software that I just couldn't get to grips with. Plus I personally disagree with cropping images - I feel you should see the full comic - and some of their descriptors.

There's a chap here who takes all the images I post in my threads and uploads them anyway. So it shouldn't be too long before they appear. 

 

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1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I joined the GCD last year and told them I had five thousand images to upload. And not just pence copies. They allowed me to post one image at a time which I had to wait for authorisation on. Then they said I had categorised it wrong. Then they argued among themselves about the classification. Then they asked me to crop all images. So I gave up, as it was too much like hard work. And I never heard from them again. Great site, great endeavour, and definitely one I'd want to support, but too hard to engage with clunky unintuitive software that I just couldn't get to grips with. Plus I personally disagree with cropping images - I feel you should see the full comic - and some of their descriptors.

There's a chap here who takes all the images I post in my threads and uploads them anyway. So it shouldn't be too long before they appear. 

 

That sounds like the kind of soul destroying venture that has caused me more than once to threaten to throw my laptop out of the window. I am self taught and did not buy my first PC until after I'd retired. I remember one frustrating weekend I spent trying to place an avatar on this very site that actually had me weeping tears of frustration.

One goes online for help which is worse than useless. None of the instructions found ever match up to what I find on my computer.

This is the image that I have tried to upload as my avatar so if any passing nine year old could help I'd be very grateful.

Flaming Avenger.jpg

Edited by Redshade
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9 minutes ago, Redshade said:

That sounds like the kind of soul destroying venture that has caused me more than once to threaten to throw my laptop out of the window. I am self taught and did not buy my first PC until after I'd retired. I remember one frustrating weekend I spent trying to place an avatar on this very site that actually had me weeping tears of frustration.

One goes online for help which is worse than useless. None of the instructions found ever match up to what I finds on my computer.

This is the image that I have tried to upload as my avatar so if any passing nine year old could help I'd be very grateful.

Flaming Avenger.jpg

First save that picture to your computer where you can find it easily to upload, or better yet when you right click on the photo, hit save image as, a screen pops up, scroll on the left of that screen until you get to desktop, click desktop, name the file, and hit save...

Then log in here go to you profile by clicking on your name in the upper right corner and choosing "profile." then when you get to profile, hover over the smaller profile pic box and click on it, and click on upload from computer then scroll on the left of the page that pops up to get to desktop, click on desktop, find the file you named and click on it then hit the "save" button...

should work :foryou: 

Edited by ADAMANTIUM
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5 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

First save that picture to your computer where you can find it easily to upload, or better yet when you right click on the photo, hit save image as, a screen pops up, scroll on the left of that screen until you get to desktop, click desktop, name the file, and hit save...

Then log in here go to you profile by clicking on your name in the upper right corner and choosing "profile." then when you get to profile, hover over the smaller profile pic box and click on it, and click on upload from computer then scroll on the left of the page that pops up to get to desktop, click on desktop, find the file you named and click on it then hit the "save" button...

should work :foryou: 

You might need to resize the image first as there is a file size limit. More from me tomorrow on this, if it isn't showing by then! 

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