Current CGC slab with well/Wavy covers 2 2

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

13 hours ago, mschmidt said:

You're still confusing the various incarnations of the slab. There's no evidence there's a widespread problem with books developing waves inside the most recent CGC case (the one with an inner well).

I didn't claim that there was a widespread problem.  I said it was possible.  There is No evidence that a pressed book returns to its previous wavy or creased state.  So we're back to the same starting point.  CGC receives a book.  It either has waviness or it does not.  If it had the waviness this one does, at this grade, that waviness would have been mentioned in the grader's notes.  It was not.  Therefore the possibility exists that the waviness occurred after encapsulation.  That's all I'm saying.  And as of yet no one has come up with any more likely explanation.  The fact that some refuse to even consider the possibility is a bit disconcerting, to be sure.

[mschmidt]

9 hours ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

I didn't claim that there was a widespread problem.  I said it was possible.  There is No evidence that a pressed book returns to its previous wavy or creased state.  So we're back to the same starting point.  CGC receives a book.  It either has waviness or it does not.  If it had the waviness this one does, at this grade, that waviness would have been mentioned in the grader's notes.  It was not.  Therefore the possibility exists that the waviness occurred after encapsulation.  That's all I'm saying.  And as of yet no one has come up with any more likely explanation.  The fact that some refuse to even consider the possibility is a bit disconcerting, to be sure.

No, what you said was:

" There is a lot of evidence of books in slabs developing waviness in the slab. "

Which isn't true when you're talking about the new slab with the inner well or the previous generation holder.

People have come up with multiple likely explanations for why your book looks the way it does - the fact that you refuse to consider any of them apart from the one you entered the thread with can't really be blamed on the thread participants, it's all on you.

 

[lizards2]

10 hours ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

20 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

If the book was encapsulated with an inner well, there is no evidence I ever saw where the encapsulation process caused waviness. The first incarnation of the new slab did not have an inner well and used pressure to hold the book in place. The pressure caused the waviness.

I have no strong desire to absolve the encapsulation service, why would I care ? I'm not accusing you of anything but possibly reaching the wrong conclusion on what happened. If, as you say, you are simply trying to get a handle on what happened, why are you being so defensive ? You came here asking. Others, including myself, said you may be wrong.  You were seeking validation of your hypothesis, you did not get it. Sorry.

 

You have taken a somewhat confrontational tone in this discussion, evinced by this claim that I was seeking validation rather than input from others who may have had similar experiences.  I am not being defensive, but if anyone has a viewpoint different than yours, evidently that is your conclusion.  The fact that you or I have seen, or have not seen, any particular anomaly does not in itself constitute evidence or disproval.  You seem to have concluded that a comic book not encapsulated in CGC's "no-well" design cannot have developed waviness associated with the slab.  I maintain that, until we have evidence that something else caused said waviness, the POSSIBILITY still does exist that the waviness was caused by (and please try to visualize what I'm referring to) a too-narrow well, in other words, a well that, over a certain period of time more or less "scrunched" the book on the sides resulting in the waviness.

If a book is placed in a well that does not allow absolutely ANY space, simple atmospheric conditions, if nothing else, might cause the paper to expand just a tad and lead to waviness.  If the (comparatively) widest part of the book is the front or back cover, that is where the pressure from the sides would result in the anomaly.

I'm just acknowledging the possibility.  Sorry.

It's an interesting thought - just like when a too large comic is jammed in a too small bag, and left there over time.

[Bomber-Bob]

13 hours ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

You have taken a somewhat confrontational tone in this discussion, evinced by this claim that I was seeking validation rather than input from others who may have had similar experiences.  I am not being defensive, but if anyone has a viewpoint different than yours, evidently that is your conclusion.  The fact that you or I have seen, or have not seen, any particular anomaly does not in itself constitute evidence or disproval.  You seem to have concluded that a comic book not encapsulated in CGC's "no-well" design cannot have developed waviness associated with the slab.  I maintain that, until we have evidence that something else caused said waviness, the POSSIBILITY still does exist that the waviness was caused by (and please try to visualize what I'm referring to) a too-narrow well, in other words, a well that, over a certain period of time more or less "scrunched" the book on the sides resulting in the waviness.

If a book is placed in a well that does not allow absolutely ANY space, simple atmospheric conditions, if nothing else, might cause the paper to expand just a tad and lead to waviness.  If the (comparatively) widest part of the book is the front or back cover, that is where the pressure from the sides would result in the anomaly.

I'm just acknowledging the possibility.  Sorry.

You refuse to acknowledge the waviness may be caused by a bad press, saying we can't prove it. Well, if you believe the waviness is the result of the inner well, how about you proving it !?! I am not the only one saying it's probably a bad press....

Tony S....  Or it COULD BE that the book had waves when sent to sent to CGC. That the slab HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.....

VintageComics....

From what my experience tells me, it's more likely that your book has a wave in it pre slabbing and that is what you are seeing.

Paddy....  Only had the one bad wavy book thus far .. it was pressed 

MSchmidt... People have come up with multiple likely explanations for why your book looks the way it does - the fact that you refuse to consider any of them apart from the one you entered the thread with can't really be blamed on the thread participants, it's all on you.

 

 

 

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:19 PM, Bomber-Bob said:

You refuse to acknowledge the waviness may be caused by a bad press, saying we can't prove it. Well, if you believe the waviness is the result of the inner well, how about you proving it !?! I am not the only one saying it's probably a bad press....

Tony S....  Or it COULD BE that the book had waves when sent to sent to CGC. That the slab HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.....

VintageComics....

From what my experience tells me, it's more likely that your book has a wave in it pre slabbing and that is what you are seeing.

Paddy....  Only had the one bad wavy book thus far .. it was pressed 

MSchmidt... People have come up with multiple likely explanations for why your book looks the way it does - the fact that you refuse to consider any of them apart from the one you entered the thread with can't really be blamed on the thread participants, it's all on you.

 

 

 

Seems I owe you an apology, BB and mschmidt...this is quoted from the CCS website, a leader in the pressing industry...

"There are various levels of pressing we have witnessed in the hobby, from spot pressing to very aggressive methods. The more aggressive techniques can cause warping, cockling, waves, color loss, flaring, damage to staple areas, and an overall limpness to a book, even with one pressing. With slightly less aggressive techniques, one press may not damage a book, but multiple pressings using the same method can produce negative results."

So it is quite possible that the book has been pressed previously by someone who was not as skilled or knowledgeable as he could have been, and his attempt to correct them was short-lived.  So certainly you are correct in bringing up this clear possibility.

I've had several very helpful conversations with CGC about all this, and those along with those I've had in this discussion lead me to the only sensible action I can take, which is to send the book back to CGC.  They have informed me that, if in their estimation their slab well was too small and caused the waviness (and they did acknowledge that possibility), they will reslab for free. 

However, in the last week I took the book to a local shop that I've done lots of business with over the years, and he is convinced that the waviness can only be removed by (perhaps another) pressing.  CGC told me that in that case, they will have their associated service, CCS, do the pressing and then they must not only reslab but re-grade at my cost.  I have absolutely no problem with that...I'm kind of a Journey Into Mystery enthusiast and early Thor even moreso, and this JIM #90 in high grade is pretty scarce, so I want the book right.

Of course I'll update whenever I have any further information for anyone who might be interested.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet

[mschmidt]

11 hours ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

Seems I owe you an apology, BB and mschmidt...this is quoted from the CCS website, a leader in the pressing industry...

"There are various levels of pressing we have witnessed in the hobby, from spot pressing to very aggressive methods. The more aggressive techniques can cause warping, cockling, waves, color loss, flaring, damage to staple areas, and an overall limpness to a book, even with one pressing. With slightly less aggressive techniques, one press may not damage a book, but multiple pressings using the same method can produce negative results."

So it is quite possible that the book has been pressed previously by someone who was not as skilled or knowledgeable as he could have been, and his attempt to correct them was short-lived.  So certainly you are correct in bringing up this clear possibility.

I've had several very helpful conversations with CGC about all this, and those along with those I've had in this discussion lead me to the only sensible action I can take, which is to send the book back to CGC.  They have informed me that, if in their estimation their slab well was too small and caused the waviness (and they did acknowledge that possibility), they will reslab for free. 

However, in the last week I took the book to a local shop that I've done lots of business with over the years, and he is convinced that the waviness can only be removed by (perhaps another) pressing.  CGC told me that in that case, they will have their associated service, CCS, do the pressing and then they must not only reslab but re-grade at my cost.  I have absolutely no problem with that...I'm kind of a Journey Into Mystery enthusiast and early Thor even moreso, and this JIM #90 in high grade is pretty scarce, so I want the book right.

Of course I'll update whenever I have any further information for anyone who might be interested.

Good luck 

[Bomber-Bob]

14 hours ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

Seems I owe you an apology, BB and mschmidt...this is quoted from the CCS website, a leader in the pressing industry...

"There are various levels of pressing we have witnessed in the hobby, from spot pressing to very aggressive methods. The more aggressive techniques can cause warping, cockling, waves, color loss, flaring, damage to staple areas, and an overall limpness to a book, even with one pressing. With slightly less aggressive techniques, one press may not damage a book, but multiple pressings using the same method can produce negative results."

So it is quite possible that the book has been pressed previously by someone who was not as skilled or knowledgeable as he could have been, and his attempt to correct them was short-lived.  So certainly you are correct in bringing up this clear possibility.

I've had several very helpful conversations with CGC about all this, and those along with those I've had in this discussion lead me to the only sensible action I can take, which is to send the book back to CGC.  They have informed me that, if in their estimation their slab well was too small and caused the waviness (and they did acknowledge that possibility), they will reslab for free. 

However, in the last week I took the book to a local shop that I've done lots of business with over the years, and he is convinced that the waviness can only be removed by (perhaps another) pressing.  CGC told me that in that case, they will have their associated service, CCS, do the pressing and then they must not only reslab but re-grade at my cost.  I have absolutely no problem with that...I'm kind of a Journey Into Mystery enthusiast and early Thor even moreso, and this JIM #90 in high grade is pretty scarce, so I want the book right.

Of course I'll update whenever I have any further information for anyone who might be interested.

CGC is very accommodating with slab related problems. I am sure they will fix the waviness but I would expect the cost may be on you.

BTW, I collect Silver Age and I am a big fan of Journey into Mystery. I agree, this is a very cool book, not often seen in higher grades. Trust me, I am very sympathetic to your problems. The exact same situation happened to me last year when I received a book purchased on the Boards with waves. The problem is you cannot see the waviness from a normal scan. In my case, I moved the book but if it was a book I really wanted to keep I would have sent it to CGC. BTW, I moved the book, in hand, at a convention. I took a beating on the price because of the waviness, selling it for barely half of what I paid. Nobody wanted to touch it. I have also experienced the situation where it was fine when I got it but it developed waves later. When purchasing, I always try and ask who pressed the book but rarely get an answer. There are a lot of home grown pressers out there putting their 'experiments into the marketplace. Just something else to look out for. Good luck on your book !

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

11 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

CGC is very accommodating with slab related problems. I am sure they will fix the waviness but I would expect the cost may be on you.

BTW, I collect Silver Age and I am a big fan of Journey into Mystery. I agree, this is a very cool book, not often seen in higher grades. Trust me, I am very sympathetic to your problems. The exact same situation happened to me last year when I received a book purchased on the Boards with waves. The problem is you cannot see the waviness from a normal scan. In my case, I moved the book but if it was a book I really wanted to keep I would have sent it to CGC. BTW, I moved the book, in hand, at a convention. I took a beating on the price because of the waviness, selling it for barely half of what I paid. Nobody wanted to touch it. I have also experienced the situation where it was fine when I got it but it developed waves later. When purchasing, I always try and ask who pressed the book but rarely get an answer. There are a lot of home grown pressers out there putting their 'experiments into the marketplace. Just something else to look out for. Good luck on your book !

I purchased this one from ComicLink, and the seller provided only a front scan, not a back one.  I did have trouble initially taking pics that would show the waves, but of course I was able to eventually.  Honestly, if the seller had included a high quality back cover scan that showed these waves I probably would have passed on the book.  I know what you mean about if yours had been a book you really wanted to keep you would have sent it to CGC.  That's the way I feel about this one...this book is mine now, I need to take steps to address these waves.

Who pressed the book seems to be a pretty darn important consideration, I'm understanding.  I am under the impression that CCS is one of the top pressers, because of CGC's association and because of their prices!   

They seem to be about the highest out there, but (and I'm sure you can understand my mindset with this book at this point) the cost is almost a secondary consideration--I want this book to be right!  If for no other reason than, nobody uses carbon copies any more!

[lizards2]

10 hours ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

I purchased this one from ComicLink, and the seller provided only a front scan, not a back one.  I did have trouble initially taking pics that would show the waves, but of course I was able to eventually.  Honestly, if the seller had included a high quality back cover scan that showed these waves I probably would have passed on the book.  I know what you mean about if yours had been a book you really wanted to keep you would have sent it to CGC.  That's the way I feel about this one...this book is mine now, I need to take steps to address these waves.

Who pressed the book seems to be a pretty darn important consideration, I'm understanding.  I am under the impression that CCS is one of the top pressers, because of CGC's association and because of their prices!   

They seem to be about the highest out there, but (and I'm sure you can understand my mindset with this book at this point) the cost is almost a secondary consideration--I want this book to be right!  If for no other reason than, nobody uses carbon copies any more!

You are supposed to buy the label, not the book, Silly!!! 

[Paddy_McShillihan]

14 hours ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

I purchased this one from ComicLink, and the seller provided only a front scan, not a back one.  I did have trouble initially taking pics that would show the waves, but of course I was able to eventually.  Honestly, if the seller had included a high quality back cover scan that showed these waves I probably would have passed on the book.  I know what you mean about if yours had been a book you really wanted to keep you would have sent it to CGC.  That's the way I feel about this one...this book is mine now, I need to take steps to address these waves.

Who pressed the book seems to be a pretty darn important consideration, I'm understanding.  I am under the impression that CCS is one of the top pressers, because of CGC's association and because of their prices!   

They seem to be about the highest out there, but (and I'm sure you can understand my mindset with this book at this point) the cost is almost a secondary consideration--I want this book to be right!  If for no other reason than, nobody uses carbon copies any more!

CCS pressed my wavy book .., 

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

9 hours ago, Paddy_McShillihan said:

CCS pressed my wavy book .., 

I'm gonna get a bumper sticker that says that!

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

13 hours ago, lizards2 said:

You are supposed to buy the label, not the book, Silly!!! 

Good point, it seems I bought the front cover and not the back cover also...

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

Just an update for anyone interested, GCG received this book on May 3rd, and up to this moment all I have gotten in response is that no one seems to know where my book is.  I can only hope that it's just a matter of a one hand not knowing what the other is doing situation...

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet

[Bomber-Bob]

3 minutes ago, Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet said:

Just an update for anyone interested, GCG received this book on May 3rd, and up to this moment all I have gotten in response is that no one seems to know where my book is.  Truly a confidence-inspiring turn of events.  I'm certainly glad this was a $500 book and not a $5,000 book...

 

Sorry to hear that. Keep us up to date. Good luck.

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 10:28 PM, Bomber-Bob said:

Sorry to hear that. Keep us up to date. Good luck.

Thanks BB, I did get a response from a very interested and proactive professional at Submissions after I expressed my concerns, and I'm now hopeful that all is as it should be, as my book is in the reholdering process.

[Dr.Fate'sFullHelmet]

Just received the book back from CGC today, and I'm friggin' ecstatic.  As indicated by the pics, the waviness in the back cover has been removed and the book reholdered in a slab with a wider well and a spacer so the book cannot be squeezed.  Other than the anomalous miscommunication, this process was quick, professional and has resulted in one very satisfied customer.  CGC went above and beyond the call of duty.

[DaveSFU]

On 4/5/2017 at 9:49 PM, feder241 said:

It's hard to tell. Here are some pics:

 

 

I had the same book come back today with the same problem.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

2 minutes ago, DaveSFU said:

 

I had the same book come back today with the same problem.  

Those aren't "new" cases too, just regular holders....

[DaveSFU]

10 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Those aren't "new" cases too, just regular holders....

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

@DaveSFU from what I hear, if you call cgc they should reholder for free since it doesn't have the inner well.