Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[crassus]

On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 1:36 PM, Chuck Gower said:

How can you miss this????

In the 80's, under the 'horrible' newsstand system, Archie was printing 60,000 copies - today? 15,000 copies.

Amazing Spider-man in 1977 under the crumbling newsstand system - 281,000 - today? 60,000 copies.

Buy turning their back on new readers and focusing slowly upon the customers they already had - they regurgitated the same stories over and over and over again until they eroded the market to what it is today. 

The only way it's worked out for them is by getting them to buy OTHER forms of superhero entertainment at the expense of COMIC sales. 

Without NEW BLOOD we will eventually be a forgotten hobby. 

I agree. The current system is fundamentally cultish, we are not part of a mass market but more of a cult. It is harmless enough, but kind of depressing, and like most cults, of an uncertain future.

[AndyFish]

Comics don't have the entertainment value associated with their price point.  Even at the cheapest point, DC's $2.99 how long does it take to read a story?  Ten minutes?  If I'm a kid with an allowance and I like to read I can buy a "real book" for $6 in the paperback section or a Kindle Copy for 99c and have something that takes me at the very least a few days to read.

We're moving closer and closer to Trade Paperbacks being the norm and pamphlets going away.  Diamond wants it that way.  Any really GOOD comic shop understands the shelf life of a TPB is infinite while a monthly has about 3 months before it's in the back issue bin.   But then Marvel does things like have $35 trade paperbacks?  Insane.  The $100 Omnibus books?  Is ANYONE paying full retail for those?  I have a huge collection of them, but I think the most I've ever paid for one was $40.

Digital is also a huge solution but you're never going to see it eclipse print when a digital copy is the same price as the print edition.  Where is the logic in that?  No printing expense involved and the price remains the same?   Why? Because the publishers know if they did all digital at 50c or a dollar they'd end print completely.  But the bottom line would be higher overall sales.  Like it or not, and I know a lot of people on here don't-- digital is growing and THAT is how most of the new generation will read.  When I was in Japan last year EVERYONE was reading on their phones and tablets, and a lot of what they were reading was Manga.

But imagine if you took the endless archives of back issues Marvel and DC has and offered the digital versions of individual issues for 50c or two for a dollar.  They would ignite sales of books that they've long since made money on because they are out of print and they'd hook a new generation of kids on the good stuff.

When I was doing a comic art class for middle school kids a few years ago I brought in stacks of books for them to have and to read.  The first batch I brought in was Jim Lee style work--- thinking the kids would like the new stuff.  To a kid, they found it hard to understand what was happening.  The storytelling was confusing.  Then I brought in a bunch of Marvel Tales featuring Ditko Spider-Man and they ate it up.  Wanted more even. 

That showed me first hand that we feed the cult with ridiculous layouts and pinups every other page, but we lose people who haven't been reading comics for years.

We need more people like Jim Shooter back in the leadership of these companies-- he understood that every comic book was someone's first.

 

[Jeffro.]

18 minutes ago, AndyFish said:

When I was doing a comic art class for middle school kids a few years ago I brought in stacks of books for them to have and to read.  The first batch I brought in was Jim Lee style work--- thinking the kids would like the new stuff.  To a kid, they found it hard to understand what was happening.  The storytelling was confusing.  Then I brought in a bunch of Marvel Tales featuring Ditko Spider-Man and they ate it up.  Wanted more even. 

Now that makes me happy!

[ComicConnoisseur]

32 minutes ago, crassus said:

I agree. The current system is fundamentally cultish, we are not part of a mass market but more of a cult. It is harmless enough, but kind of depressing, and like most cults, of an uncertain future.

I think what they did was turn their back on loyal long-time Marvel readers and tried to bring in new readers. They tried to balance it somewhat,but it is looking like with Legacy they realized they made a mistake and are trying  to bring back loyal long-time Marvel readers. It might be not work as loyal long-time Marvel readers  found out they actually can do something else with their hard-earned money.

Marvel had some of the most loyal fans other companies would have done anything for.

It is very hard to get loyal customers. It is in fact costly to get new customers and even more costly to lose loyal Marvel fans.

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[Jeffro.]

19 minutes ago, AndyFish said:

We need more people like Jim Shooter back in the leadership of these companies-- he understood that every comic book was someone's first.

I'm not sure that would work anymore. Established creators wouldn't put up with Shooter level control.  

[piper]

20 hours ago, kimik said:

Nice book to have nonetheless. Congrats.

 

2 minutes ago, Jerkfro said:

I'm not sure that would work anymore. Established creators wouldn't put up with Shooter level control.  

Shooter is appearing at the Calgary Expo this weekend.  I wonder if there's a way for me to ask this question to him about editorial control in the modern day without getting kicked out of the panel?

[ComicConnoisseur]

23 minutes ago, AndyFish said:

Comics don't have the entertainment value associated with their price point.  Even at the cheapest point, DC's $2.99 how long does it take to read a story?  Ten minutes?  If I'm a kid with an allowance and I like to read I can buy a "real book" for $6 in the paperback section or a Kindle Copy for 99c and have something that takes me at the very least a few days to read.

We're moving closer and closer to Trade Paperbacks being the norm and pamphlets going away.  Diamond wants it that way.  Any really GOOD comic shop understands the shelf life of a TPB is infinite while a monthly has about 3 months before it's in the back issue bin.   But then Marvel does things like have $35 trade paperbacks?  Insane.  The $100 Omnibus books?  Is ANYONE paying full retail for those?  I have a huge collection of them, but I think the most I've ever paid for one was $40.

Digital is also a huge solution but you're never going to see it eclipse print when a digital copy is the same price as the print edition.  Where is the logic in that?  No printing expense involved and the price remains the same?   Why? Because the publishers know if they did all digital at 50c or a dollar they'd end print completely.  But the bottom line would be higher overall sales.  Like it or not, and I know a lot of people on here don't-- digital is growing and THAT is how most of the new generation will read.  When I was in Japan last year EVERYONE was reading on their phones and tablets, and a lot of what they were reading was Manga.

But imagine if you took the endless archives of back issues Marvel and DC has and offered the digital versions of individual issues for 50c or two for a dollar.  They would ignite sales of books that they've long since made money on because they are out of print and they'd hook a new generation of kids on the good stuff.

When I was doing a comic art class for middle school kids a few years ago I brought in stacks of books for them to have and to read.  The first batch I brought in was Jim Lee style work--- thinking the kids would like the new stuff.  To a kid, they found it hard to understand what was happening.  The storytelling was confusing.  Then I brought in a bunch of Marvel Tales featuring Ditko Spider-Man and they ate it up.  Wanted more even. 

That showed me first hand that we feed the cult with ridiculous layouts and pinups every other page, but we lose people who haven't been reading comics for years.

We need more people like Jim Shooter back in the leadership of these companies-- he understood that every comic book was someone's first.

 

[chrisco37]

24 minutes ago, AndyFish said:

Comics don't have the entertainment value associated with their price point.  Even at the cheapest point, DC's $2.99 how long does it take to read a story?  Ten minutes?  If I'm a kid with an allowance and I like to read I can buy a "real book" for $6 in the paperback section or a Kindle Copy for 99c and have something that takes me at the very least a few days to read.

We're moving closer and closer to Trade Paperbacks being the norm and pamphlets going away.  Diamond wants it that way.  Any really GOOD comic shop understands the shelf life of a TPB is infinite while a monthly has about 3 months before it's in the back issue bin.   But then Marvel does things like have $35 trade paperbacks?  Insane.  The $100 Omnibus books?  Is ANYONE paying full retail for those?  I have a huge collection of them, but I think the most I've ever paid for one was $40.

Digital is also a huge solution but you're never going to see it eclipse print when a digital copy is the same price as the print edition.  Where is the logic in that?  No printing expense involved and the price remains the same?   Why? Because the publishers know if they did all digital at 50c or a dollar they'd end print completely.  But the bottom line would be higher overall sales.  Like it or not, and I know a lot of people on here don't-- digital is growing and THAT is how most of the new generation will read.  When I was in Japan last year EVERYONE was reading on their phones and tablets, and a lot of what they were reading was Manga.

But imagine if you took the endless archives of back issues Marvel and DC has and offered the digital versions of individual issues for 50c or two for a dollar.  They would ignite sales of books that they've long since made money on because they are out of print and they'd hook a new generation of kids on the good stuff.

When I was doing a comic art class for middle school kids a few years ago I brought in stacks of books for them to have and to read.  The first batch I brought in was Jim Lee style work--- thinking the kids would like the new stuff.  To a kid, they found it hard to understand what was happening.  The storytelling was confusing.  Then I brought in a bunch of Marvel Tales featuring Ditko Spider-Man and they ate it up.  Wanted more even. 

That showed me first hand that we feed the cult with ridiculous layouts and pinups every other page, but we lose people who haven't been reading comics for years.

We need more people like Jim Shooter back in the leadership of these companies-- he understood that every comic book was someone's first.

 

Great post. 

Regarding the individual digital issues for 50-cents, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Marvel basically give you access to the archives for something like $7-9/mo.?   So, really even cheaper than 50/book.  There's a guy I work with that has the digital subscription and he's always asking me for recommendations.   I know he just read the Simonson Thor stuff recently on his digital subscription. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

4 minutes ago, Jerkfro said:

I'm not sure that would work anymore. Established creators wouldn't put up with Shooter level control.  

Maybe they should get rid of those creators and clean house? Let Shooter find a new bunch of creators like he did when he had to start over again with Valiant. Can be done. They just need a strong leader with a vision of what Marvel Comics is just like Keven Feinge's vision has in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. 

We don't see Keven Feinge caving in or trying to please the media like Alonso now do we?

Keven Feinge has a long-term plan,while Alonso is all about the flavor of the month.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

13 minutes ago, piper said:

 

Shooter is appearing at the Calgary Expo this weekend.  I wonder if there's a way for me to ask this question to him about editorial control in the modern day without getting kicked out of the panel?

Please do.  Ask him if he wants the Editor in Chief job back. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[1Cool]

Genius!  Just stopped into a small shop in a section of town I rarely go to (Mr Cards and Comics) and he has switched over to just TPBs and will order floppies for customers on request.  He must have 100 different TPBs on the shelves so I'd not be surprised if he just takes the too hundred list to fill his order.  No back stock to worry about and only profit if he does make a order of comics.

[Doktor]

2 hours ago, chrisco37 said:

Great post. 

Regarding the individual digital issues for 50-cents, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Marvel basically give you access to the archives for something like $7-9/mo.?   So, really even cheaper than 50/book.  There's a guy I work with that has the digital subscription and he's always asking me for recommendations.   I know he just read the Simonson Thor stuff recently on his digital subscription. 

Only of books older then 6 months. Marvel Unlimited is fine for back issues, but if you want to in any way stay up to date, you're paying the same as you would for print.

[chrisco37]

2 minutes ago, Doktor said:

2 hours ago, chrisco37 said:

Great post. 

Regarding the individual digital issues for 50-cents, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Marvel basically give you access to the archives for something like $7-9/mo.?   So, really even cheaper than 50/book.  There's a guy I work with that has the digital subscription and he's always asking me for recommendations.   I know he just read the Simonson Thor stuff recently on his digital subscription. 

Only of books older then 6 months. Marvel Unlimited is fine for back issues, but if you want to in any way stay up to date, you're paying the same as you would for print.

Ahhh...thanks for the correction/clarification.   

[Jeffro.]

2 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

2 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

I'm not sure that would work anymore. Established creators wouldn't put up with Shooter level control.  

Maybe they should get rid of those creators and clean house? Let Shooter find a new bunch of creators like he did when he had to start over again with Valiant. Can be done. They just need a strong leader with a vision of what Marvel Comics is just like Keven Feinge's vision has in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. 

We don't see Keven Feinge caving in or trying to please the media like Alonso now do we?

Keven Feinge has a long-term plan,while Alonso is all about the flavor of the month.

They could clean house but what happens when Shooter goes all bonkers again like he did at the end of his Marvel tenure? 

[Doktor]

Just now, chrisco37 said:

Ahhh...thanks for the correction/clarification.   

Additionally, the problem with digital is that you don't "own" it in the same way as you do with physical formats. You can go over to your long box and re-read anything you want that you bought at the time of release or go pick up back issues of stuff you missed, but if the publisher or distributor (which is what Marvel Unlimited is, a distribution system) loses the rights to distribute or publish it, you lose the right to be able to read or re-read it with services like Unlimited. Unless you have it saved locally, any cloud based services is only as good as their current rights deals.

It's like Netflix. They don't care if you're in the middle of re-watching the X-Files. They lose the rights because that contract ended, so you can't finish it. I mean, think of old back-issues of Micronauts or Rom? Wanna read it digital or in TPB or whatever? Too bad. The rights are complicated & Marvel can't reprint it or distribute it digitally unless they work out an agreement.

[ComicConnoisseur]

3 minutes ago, Jerkfro said:

They could clean house but what happens when Shooter goes all bonkers again like he did at the end of his Marvel tenure? 

The odds are Shooter won't come back because he is in his 60s now. They need some one with a strong vision, and not a group think who panders to what the mainstream journalists think.

Edited April 25, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[ComicConnoisseur]

28 minutes ago, Doktor said:

Additionally, the problem with digital is that you don't "own" it in the same way as you do with physical formats. You can go over to your long box and re-read anything you want that you bought at the time of release or go pick up back issues of stuff you missed, but if the publisher or distributor (which is what Marvel Unlimited is, a distribution system) loses the rights to distribute or publish it, you lose the right to be able to read or re-read it with services like Unlimited. Unless you have it saved locally, any cloud based services is only as good as their current rights deals.

It's like Netflix. They don't care if you're in the middle of re-watching the X-Files. They lose the rights because that contract ended, so you can't finish it. I mean, think of old back-issues of Micronauts or Rom? Wanna read it digital or in TPB or whatever? Too bad. The rights are complicated & Marvel can't reprint it or distribute it digitally unless they work out an agreement.

I waited so long for Micronauts and Rom to be collected, Hope they can pull it off and use the proceeds to help Bill Mantlo.

[Doktor]

2 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I waited so long for Micronauts and Rom to be collected, Hope they can pull it off and use the proceeds to help Bill Mantlo.

Rom is probably never going to happen. Especially with IDW currently publishing it. But even that... the people that are buying the current Rom title from IDW and their insane mega-event with Transformers & MASK and GI Joe and Rom and everything else all mixed together? Those properties are all owned by a couple different companies, aren't they? So if I was buying them from.... say... Comixology... and 5 years from now, Hasbro or whoever changes the license on Transformers but keeps GI Joe with IDW, all those comics you "bought" right NOW during this event, unless you've downloaded them to your local device, they will simply vanish from your collection. Because IDW isn't allowed to continue licensing them or distributing them (which is what they do every time you download it or re-download it or even simply "stream" it to your devices) and all you've done with a digital copy is essentially purchased the right to use their digital license according to the terms of that publisher's contract with the rights holder, and it expires when their license does as well.

In practical terms, this would be like someone from Marvel coming into your house to go pull all the old issues of GI Joe you bought in the 80's out of your long boxes. Obviously they can't do this, but the reason why (aside from the practical issue of this being impossible to do that) is because you own the paper bundle that it's printed on, but you're obviously bound by only "fair use" rules on what can be done with the content contained in that paper bundle. But with digital, you're just leasing the rights to access the content for an indeterminate period of time.

[ComicConnoisseur]

10 minutes ago, Doktor said:

Rom is probably never going to happen. Especially with IDW currently publishing it. But even that... the people that are buying the current Rom title from IDW and their insane mega-event with Transformers & MASK and GI Joe and Rom and everything else all mixed together? Those properties are all owned by a couple different companies, aren't they? So if I was buying them from.... say... Comixology... and 5 years from now, Hasbro or whoever changes the license on Transformers but keeps GI Joe with IDW, all those comics you "bought" right NOW during this event, unless you've downloaded them to your local device, they will simply vanish from your collection. Because IDW isn't allowed to continue licensing them or distributing them (which is what they do every time you download it or re-download it or even simply "stream" it to your devices) and all you've done with a digital copy is essentially purchased the right to use their digital license according to the terms of that publisher's contract with the rights holder, and it expires when their license does as well.

In practical terms, this would be like someone from Marvel coming into your house to go pull all the old issues of GI Joe you bought in the 80's out of your long boxes. Obviously they can't do this, but the reason why (aside from the practical issue of this being impossible to do that) is because you own the paper bundle that it's printed on, but you're obviously bound by only "fair use" rules on what can be done with the content contained in that paper bundle. But with digital, you're just leasing the rights to access the content for an indeterminate period of time.

Good points.

I was hoping though that Marvel,Hasbro and IDW would get past the red tape and help out Bill Mantlo do to his condition.

Marvel did cut a deal with the estate of Fu Manchu/Sax Rohmer to publish the Master of Kung Fu Omnibuses, but I guess the ROM and Micronauts deal is far more complicated than that.

[Doktor]

7 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Good points.

I was hoping though that Marvel,Hasbro and IDW would get past the red tape and help out Bill Mantlo do to his condition.

Marvel did cut a deal with the estate of Fu Manchu/Sax Rohmer to publish the Master of Kung Fu Omnibuses, but I guess the ROM and Micronauts deal is far more complicated than that.

Well, even if they did... it wouldn't be for an indefinite period of time. It would be a contract that went from Day X to Day Y and when it expired, there wouldn't be any more copies of the collected editions printed/shipped to stores, and any digital copies that you "bought" from a digital distributor would simply vanish from your collection unless it was downloaded locally (and even then, I believe many of those apps can simply erase stuff that they aren't legally permitted to distribute anymore). It's like the longest Blockbuster rental in history that didn't include a late fee.

Point blank, digital sucks because it's an indefinite rental & not a purchase & can vanish without warning because a distribution/licensing contract ends. I mean, I take that risk every time I buy a movie or tv show from iTunes. But it's why I also make sure I download it to my local media server so that even if I can't watch it from my iTunes purchase history, I CAN watch it from my local media server on my appleTV.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Doktor