Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[lizards2]

1 hour ago, chrisco37 said:

My daughter calls me a "meany" on the regular.  I tell her that I'm "tough" but not "mean".  It's difficult in these times to raise a kid that can deal with, what to me was, growing up.  As parents we want to protect our kids.  I think it's been taken too far.  Life isn't easy and it isn't "fair".  I try to demonstrate that to my daughter.  Sometimes it works, sometimes I fail miserably. 

Am I a jerk?  Some people would probably say yes.  Some would say no. 

I think I "give in" more than I should.  Certainly more than what I was afforded at her age, and my childhood was pretty darn good (I was very lucky).  It's a sticky-wicket. 

You were the jerk that taught me "masking" when I was new to the boards....,

 

[VintageComics]

2 hours ago, chrisco37 said:

My daughter calls me a "meany" on the regular.  I tell her that I'm "tough" but not "mean".  It's difficult in these times to raise a kid that can deal with, what to me was, growing up.  As parents we want to protect our kids.  I think it's been taken too far.  Life isn't easy and it isn't "fair".  I try to demonstrate that to my daughter.  Sometimes it works, sometimes I fail miserably. 

Am I a jerk?  Some people would probably say yes.  Some would say no. 

I think I "give in" more than I should.  Certainly more than what I was afforded at her age, and my childhood was pretty darn good (I was very lucky).  It's a sticky-wicket. 

If your teenagers 'like' you you're doing something wrong.

Just play the long game. You can love her but also let her know why you're doing certain things.

I took a de-escalation class that really helped me manage my teens. Rather than confront them every time you learn to pick your battles and de-escalate every situation. Worked wonders.

Eventually, they realize not only that you love 'em but also that you were usually right all along.

[kav]

5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

If your teenagers 'like' you you're doing something wrong.

Just play the long game. You can love her but also let her know why you're doing certain things.

I took a de-escalation class that really helped me manage my teens. Rather than confront them every time you learn to pick your battles and de-escalate every situation. Worked wonders.

Eventually, they realize not only that you love 'em but also that you were usually right all along.

Teens want boundaries it makes them feel safe.  They might fight em but they secretly despise those parents that try to be their 'friends' and are super lenient.

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, kav said:

Teens want boundaries it makes them feel safe.  They might fight em but they secretly despise those parents that try to be their 'friends' and are super lenient.

I don't know about despise but the rest is very true in my experience.

[kav]

Just now, VintageComics said:

I don't know about despise but the rest is very true in my experience.

They do they think the parent is a chump and easily manipulated.  No one respects someone they can manipulate.

[Fan Boy]

10 hours ago, Hamlet said:

I think you are overstating the amount this has really changed.  I remember people talking exactly the same way about my generation ( Xer ) because we watched a lot of TV and played video games endlessly. 

Heck, for the generation before that, comics were the thing that was supposedly rotting their minds.

For my kids, it is Netflix/YouTube and some Frozen version of Gemdrop. 

On summer days, I remember as a kid that my mother sometimes had to push me out of the house because I wanted to spend all day playing with my Atari 2600.  Back then, good parents pushed their kids outside at some point, and I see nothing that makes me think its different in any meaningful way today.

 

It was pretty much like how my parents did to me back then. My generation is about much like yours, I had my Atari 2600 when that system first come out ( got it for Christmas). I had played it to death, busted out three controllers. Then my mother put down her guns and told me go play outside - or else. So I went outside to play. 

 No computers, no internet, no smartphones. Just the TV and video games. Heck, I even had played Pong video game when that come out before Atari! 

I started learned to read when I was 4. I had scribbled words on walls at age 3. My grandmother decided to give me my uncle's old comics to encourage me on reading. Mother agreed as well. Rest is history. 

Now I look at today's generation ... they are already into world of internet, smartphones and wireless devices the moment they are born! I can see why the comic companies are having problems to boost their sales. I feel like I am part of the last generation who truly love to read the comic stories. Loved my times with the 100 pagers, digests and the big $1.00 books in '70s 

my parents were tough on me to push me to get good education and allowed me grow my passions in what I like to do. 

[rjrjr]

13 hours ago, FutureFlash said:

I started in the 80s too and that is what you did back then collect runs. Kinda sad that it is all about the keys nowadays, people are really missing out on great story-lines of yesteryear...but for the most part it is just easier and cheaper to pick up the trade now. But I'm even getting to the point where I'm finishing the runs I'm working on and that is it and slowly reducing my monthly purchases. Ugh what a depressing thread.

But yeah I tend to think there will not be enough new collectors to absorb everything other than keys and maybe certain small runs.

The publishers are reaping what the sowed.  They decided printing ever increasingly difficult to afford variants is more important than keeping the people who collect runs happy.  We all know people (some even participating in this thread) who gave up trying to keep a collection whole.  They shouldn't be surprised there are not many run collectors left.  And hence, they lost their loyal customers.

Key collecting is just the last of the collectors trying to hold onto something they once cherished.  That too will fade in time.

Edited September 16, 2017 by rjrjr

[rjrjr]

12 hours ago, 90sChild said:

I dont think there will need to be more collectors to absorb more books, there are plenty of speculators out there that continue to drive prices up over and over again.  Competiton between dealers and stores for items to resell will always drive up prices.  If there is a reduction in comic prices over the coming years it will be based on the economy in general and not supply based. 

Someday though, these speculators will wake up and realize those boxes of hot books are not worth anywhere near the price they paid for them.

On a positive note, there are a lot of people with a lot of real money in this hobby.  So, I doubt we'll see the hobby go away in my lifetime.  I have no doubt it will keep getting more expensive for the key collectors though.

Edited September 16, 2017 by rjrjr

[ComicConnoisseur]

3 hours ago, rjrjr said:

Someday though, these speculators will wake up and realize those boxes of hot books are not worth anywhere near the price they paid for them.

On a positive note, there are a lot of people with a lot of real money in this hobby.  So, I doubt we'll see the hobby go away in my lifetime.  I have no doubt it will keep getting more expensive for the key collectors though.

One thing that will keep the comic's hobby going is a very strong community.  People are always talking about the characters in other media that will keep the hobby alive.

Some other hobbies don't have that and they are dying real quick.

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

3 hours ago, rjrjr said:

The publishers are reaping what the sowed.  They decided printing ever increasingly difficult to afford variants is more important than keeping the people who collect runs happy.  We all know people (some even participating in this thread) who gave up trying to keep a collection whole.  They shouldn't be surprised there are not many run collectors left.  And hence, they lost their loyal customers.

Key collecting is just the last of the collectors trying to hold onto something they once cherished.  That too will fade in time.

I would have thought the publishers would have learned from the 1990s about variants.

I guess they didn't as there seems to be more variants than ever.

[SteppinRazor]

4 hours ago, rjrjr said:

The publishers are reaping what the sowed.  They decided printing ever increasingly difficult to afford variants is more important than keeping the people who collect runs happy.  We all know people (some even participating in this thread) who gave up trying to keep a collection whole.  They shouldn't be surprised there are not many run collectors left.  And hence, they lost their loyal customers.

 

Yep.  Much like movies, the most important part to make one successful is the most ignored - the writing.  If you want to sell comics, people have to want to read them.  So, you have to make them worth reading.  That doesn't happen with variant covers and it doesn't happen with wholesale, knee-jerk character change.  If you want a more diverse character lineup, fine.  Take a 12 issue story arc to kill off Frank Castle and introduce a new female Punisher.  At the end of which Castle becomes Ghost Rider because that would be badass.  Don't just do it in an issue, make it an epic story.  That would sell at least 12 comics, not 3 as people drop off because they have no care or connection to any character anymore.

Blows my mind that people who make these things can't figure out that selling 1,000 variant covers once is not as good as selling 1,000 comics that make you want to buy one next month.

[FineCollector]

I'm a run collector, and I still collect modern Captain Americas, except I wait 6 months until I find them in dollar bins.  I'm not reading them, though, too much has changed.  Joe Quesada's disregard for continuity in favor of a "good story," Avengers Disassembled, and the rise of Bendis as Marvel's golden boy was the flurry of blows that put me on the mat for good.

I don't understand the blame people put on variant covers for the demise of the run collector.  I was collecting in the 90s, and the only thing that counted for our run was the 1st print, not the silver 2nd print, not the alternate colored 3rd print, not the Dynamic Forces signed variant, not the Wizard editions, nothing.  Those were nice-to-haves, but not essential to the run.  When did that change?

[batman_fan]

I don't think the long term health of the printed media is looking good.  I know I bought comics each week since the late 70s to 2010 but when I relocated to Colorado I decided to quit buying new books.  The main reason was the constant re-boots, character changes only to change back and then change again, poor writing, and terrible artwork.  I haven't missed buying new books at all.  I tried to get my son into comics but he has no interest (15 now).  I know one guy in Colorado that was a big time buyer of new stuff, like several hundred dollars per month but he recent switched to trades only and cut way back.

[kav]

37 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

I don't think the long term health of the printed media is looking good.  I know I bought comics each week since the late 70s to 2010 but when I relocated to Colorado I decided to quit buying new books.  The main reason was the constant re-boots, character changes only to change back and then change again, poor writing, and terrible artwork.  I haven't missed buying new books at all.  I tried to get my son into comics but he has no interest (15 now).  I know one guy in Colorado that was a big time buyer of new stuff, like several hundred dollars per month but he recent switched to trades only and cut way back.

pretty much yep on all counts.

[Mercury Man]

August Sales didn't appear to be too bad for Marvel, but most of those in the top tier were the Secret Empire final issues, a couple of the Generations titles (which I am not touching with a 10 ft pole), and Star Wars titles. 

The sad part is they keep forcing titles that nobody wants, and titles you think should be doing well given the Movies and Netflix series are hemorrhaging readers:  Daredevil ranks  #87. and Iron Fist, Luke Cage & Punisher are not even in the Top 100. 

[1950's war comics]

14 hours ago, batman_fan said:

I don't think the long term health of the printed media is looking good.  I know I bought comics each week since the late 70s to 2010 but when I relocated to Colorado I decided to quit buying new books.  The main reason was the constant re-boots, character changes only to change back and then change again, poor writing, and terrible artwork.  I haven't missed buying new books at all.  I tried to get my son into comics but he has no interest (15 now).  I know one guy in Colorado that was a big time buyer of new stuff, like several hundred dollars per month but he recent switched to trades only and cut way back.

I'm with you,... print media is on life support.... as few as 10-12 years ago i would buy up to 5 newspapers a day , i personally was driven away from buying newspapers because they chose to become politically correct , one sided reporting, but i can still understand why print media of all types is nearly nearing extinction ......

[SteppinRazor]

3 hours ago, CAHokie said:

A part of me wishes they would go ahead and kill off Frank Castle and Peter Parker and other key characters for good so I could stop collecting all together. Make them whatever race, gender identity and political view you want as long as you stop doing it to the originals.  

Really, Punisher is Black and the only excuse they give is it's artist interpretation? Grow some ballls and just kill off Castle and have a Black guy take over....

They really do need to do that.  Just give them epic sendoffs.  Not that the originals all have to die, they can get hurt or retire.  They do need new characters that appeal to kids today and reflect them.  Continue to produce the originals in stories told in TPB form.  Call them untold tales or something.  That way it's not your father's Spider-Man, but kids and dad can still read what appeals to them.

[lizards2]

6 hours ago, 1950's war comics said:

21 hours ago, batman_fan said:

I don't think the long term health of the printed media is looking good.  I know I bought comics each week since the late 70s to 2010 but when I relocated to Colorado I decided to quit buying new books.  The main reason was the constant re-boots, character changes only to change back and then change again, poor writing, and terrible artwork.  I haven't missed buying new books at all.  I tried to get my son into comics but he has no interest (15 now).  I know one guy in Colorado that was a big time buyer of new stuff, like several hundred dollars per month but he recent switched to trades only and cut way back.

I'm with you,... print media is on life support.... as few as 10-12 years ago i would buy up to 5 newspapers a day , i personally was driven away from buying newspapers because they chose to become politically correct , one sided reporting, but i can still understand why print media of all types is nearly nearing extinction ......

oooh...., trickledown from academia...., I'm intrigued! 

Tell me more....,

[szav]

Not much that can be added to this that about 1000 people haven't already ranted about.  On the off chance that someone from Marvel actually cares about what their fanbase thinks, and reads this stuff, I'll just add my 2 cents.

Full disclosure, I haven't read a Marvel comic off the newsstands since somewhere around Iron Man #210...so I'll take everyone's word here that their current printed products are garbage.  I am a huge huge fan of their movies.  I see every one of them...I even liked X-men Apocalypse...   I'm hoping they wont make the same woeful mistakes in their movie universe that they are in their printed one.  If Logan was any indication of where they're heading long term though, I'm honestly a bit worried.  Did they just kill off the 2 most interesting characters in the movie, Logan and Professor X, in order to set the stage for a grunting 8 year old multi cultural murder machine to take over the franchise?...

I've seen news articles and read about how Captain America is gay, Spiderman is Hispanic, and Iron Man is a black chick...and I can only shake my head.  This sort of forced/artificial/manufactured diversity and virtue signaling are insipid.  Are Marvel's movies just so profitable that they don't really care that much about their printed products anymore? Are they just a tool for the higher ups at Disney to push their demented socio-political agenda.   I say demented because I don't really see what they're trying to achieve.  I mean what is their end game with all this? 

If its about money...not sure how you can think insulting and alienating your fanbase is gonna translate to a better bottom line. If its truly about promoting diversity they're REALLY going about it the wrong way.  White-washing is a racist act...and appropriating characters beloved for generations for the sole purpose of showing the world how politically correct you are is really misguided too.  You cant make being any race, religion, sexual orientation etc. cool or accepted by magically saying...hey you guys like Spiderman right? Well now he's gay, bi, black, green, Muslim, Christian, and a Jehovah's Witness, so trust me all these things are cool and ok too. This is wrong and its lazy.

You want to promote diversity? Start from the ground up.  Develop new diverse and interesting characters.  Write good stories and create visual art that's appealing.  Make the characters real and relatable...that's why we used to love the characters you just mutilated. 

As far as the whole variant/manufactured to be rare stuff, every issue is #1...not a fan of this either.  But if this actually makes them money, and other people dig it...so be it. 

To conclude my rant...Marvel...if you do to your movies what you've done to your print media and essentially say "Iron Man's a black chick now...suck it, or you're a racist!"...I'll stop seeing your movies.  Not because I care what  race, color, religion, creed, sexual orientation your characters are (no one with a brain really cares about this anymore...), but because I'll know you're not trying.  Now if enough people I trusted told me the movies with the new characters are cool...I'll give them a chance on Netflix...but I won't be giving you the benefit of the doubt after how you handled it all in print.

Edited September 18, 2017 by szavisca
Spellin

[delekkerste]

The comic book publishing industry has been in a secular decline for more than two decades.  Short-termism and greed led to overexpansion, a speculative bubble and an unprecedented decline in quality in the '90s, which all culminated in the Marvel bankruptcy, consolidation of distribution and the rationalization and diversification of LCS's.  Meanwhile, the Internet, broadband and other technological/communications breakthroughs disrupted society in an unprecedented manner, splintering interests and norms which had lasted for years/decades/centuries into an infinite number of directions, as content, innovation, distribution, communications etc. all expanded exponentially as never before.  To put it in plain English:  we lost the next generation of comic book readers just as an infinite number of alternatives suddenly showed up.  We would have seen a big shift away anyway (just as we've seen happen to all traditional media, from network TV to newspapers to periodicals), but, that really jump-started the secular decline in a big way.

Sure, comic books staged a rebound in both unit and $ sales after bottoming out in the late '90s.  Quality improved dramatically (contrary to what some here believe, I think Marvel's quality in the early 2000s was the best the company had produced since the early 1980s), robust back issue markets (buoyed by improved information, distribution, third-party grading, liquidity, easy money, etc.), spillover interest from other media (re: Hollywood), etc. all helped comics to stage a cyclical rebound after the dark days of the mid-to-late '90s.  But, as we are seeing with other print media and other businesses that have been hugely disrupted, this just papered over what is clearly a long-term secular decline. 

Yes, Marvel shot themselves in the foot with poor business practices (e.g., variant mania, constant re-boots, too many titles, too many crossovers, questionable editorial decisions, etc.) and has undoubtedly accelerated this long-term downtrend.  But, even if Marvel was firing on all cylinders creatively, while they may be doing better than they are now, it's not like they'd be killing it and that the industry would be facing a bright future.  I think that battle has been lost; eventually, more and more of the current customer base is going to age out and there will need to be some serious right-sizing in the industry.  Clearly, the market cannot support 100+ titles from Marvel plus another 80 or whatever from DC and then all the indies, while the print-to-digital ratio is probably going to have to shift a lot more in favor of the latter as well over time.

As an interesting aside, I read an analysis of Maxim magazine last week that some of you might find interesting.  The short version is that the American version of Maxim was launched in 1997 and became a huge hit.  But, it's popularity and profitability peaked in 2007 - I'm sure changing content tastes was part of the subsequent decline, but mostly it got caught up in the secular shift towards digital and interactive media (both consumers and advertisers made the shift).  Anyway, the magazine was sold a number of times starting in 2007 until it was acquired as a turnaround project by a publicly-traded investment holding company, Bigliari Holdings (BH).  The article I linked above shows how Bigliari has tried to turn Maxim around, but has only succeeded in racking up tens of millions of dollars of red ink over the past few years. 

I used to read and subscribe to Maxim in the late Nineties and in the Noughties, but, like many, ditched it.  About a year ago, I picked up a copy of the revamped magazine at the airport and was really impressed by it - production values are up, and it clearly wants to cater to a higher-caliber of reader and advertiser.  Though, I didn't end up continuing to buy it (I might consider subscribing to the digital version, but haven't yet), and therein lies the problem with both the print magazine industry and the comic book industry - even if you make the product better, or even cheaper (Maxim actually did both - lowered the price vs. peers and improved the quality dramatically), changing preferences (for both consumers and advertisers) means that it's unlikely that you will be able to fight the secular headwinds. 

Marvel publishing cannot save itself by catering to kids, lowering prices, firing its PC editors and whatever else has been suggested here.  While some of these moves may certainly help, ultimately, the secular headwinds are the bigger factor in consumers finding other places to spend their time and money.  

Edited September 18, 2017 by delekkerste