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Are this at least legitimate Bob Kane ghosts?
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156 posts in this topic

Are this at least legitimate Bob Kane ghosts?

Hello everyone! Been buying from Choice Collectibles at the San Diego comicon for years now but a buddy told me about the Bob Kane approved ghost artists. This got me thinking.... 

I'm a big boy and understand that I may not own anything that Bob Kane ever touched......just his ghosts.......My question is can someone at least verify if these sketches are at least one of the accepted Bob Kane ghosts? Some were brokered by Michael Fazio from Vintage Animation Gallery in Santa Monica, California.

I'm trying to learn so please excuse my ignorance on this subject. Prices I've paid have been from $4,000 to $8,000USD.

Pics will follow. 

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I can't tell you if they were done by any of Bob Kane's known ghost, but what I can say is that even if they were, they would only be worth a few hundred, to a thousand or two for the very nice ones.  The Shelly Moldoff pieces go in that range and they are coloured.

Malvin

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2 hours ago, malvin said:

I can't tell you if they were done by any of Bob Kane's known ghost, but what I can say is that even if they were, they would only be worth a few hundred, to a thousand or two for the very nice ones.  The Shelly Moldoff pieces go in that range and they are coloured.

Malvin

Thank you for your input. I'm still learning about Bob Kane's ghost artista.... but the next one that they offer me...unless it's a steal...I'll probably pass on it.

I've had these on my walls for a while now so it's a little disappointing to find out that these were done by Kane's ghost artists or perhaps not at all...how can we actually know?

..but better to know, than to continue going being a fool...... 

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Morgan,

So sorry to hear.   That must be horribly disappointing.   

I'm not very well versed on his ghosts, but to my eye they are not well executed.   

More importantly and more pertinent to your question, I'm not sure there is a going rate or acceptance of ghosts in general.

I think the simple question you ask and try to answer is.. forget the signature... who is the artist that DID draw this piece.    Some of these... don't look they were done by professional artists.   

Again, not a specific subject I'm well versed in but my gut reaction is that some of them are of questionable authenticity.

Looking at the very first piece you posted.   I just don't see how a pro draws that, even if he is trying to mimic someone like Kane.

I'll be curious to hear what the others have to say.  

Dan

Edited by Bronty
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Looking at picture #2, dated 1973... I have a hard time believing that's from 1973 on the face of it.  

Sketches from that time period that I've seen in comic art are almost always india ink or pencil.   Marker sketches weren't a widespread thing until the mid 80s I'd say?  

Can anyone speak to when "Kane" sketches began to be done in marker?

Edited by Bronty
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1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Looking at picture #2, dated 1973... I have a hard time believing that's from 1973 on the face of it.  

Sketches from that time period that I've seen in comic art are almost always india ink or pencil.   Marker sketches weren't a widespread thing until the mid 80s I'd say?  

Can anyone speak to when "Kane" sketches began to be done in marker?

The sig and style in the 2nd picture looks more like Kane than any of the others. I always found Kane's style to be very lazy and simplistic. 

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22 hours ago, Captain Canuck said:

The sig and style in the 2nd picture looks more like Kane than any of the others. I always found Kane's style to be very lazy and simplistic. 

In 1973 Kane did some convention appearances and the books he signed with little drawings resemble the image in #2.   

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On 4/8/2017 at 8:37 PM, Captain Canuck said:

The sig and style in the 2nd picture looks more like Kane than any of the others. I always found Kane's style to be very lazy and simplistic. 

The 2nd pic is the only one that even resembles what we know to be genuine Kane (and the writing looks a bit forced to me), but I'd just assume that it's guilty by association unless proven innocent.  Do we even know if these are ghosts or just outright fakes?  I mean, the Kane Studio ghosted pieces at least resemble Kane's art, right?  Aside from #2, these are bad beyond belief - I have a hard time believing anyone associated with Kane did these.  

The lot just looks to me like a big write-off at this point.  I don't know any knowledgeable OA collector who would want any of these near their collection. :sorry: 

Edited by delekkerste
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2 hours ago, delekkerste said:

The 2nd pic is the only one that even resembles what we know to be genuine Kane (and the writing looks a bit forced to me), but I'd just assume that it's guilty by association unless proven innocent.  Do we even know if these are ghosts or just outright fakes?  I mean, the Kane Studio ghosted pieces at least resemble Kane's art, right?  Aside from #2, these are bad beyond belief - I have a hard time believing anyone associated with Kane did these.  

The lot just looks to me like a big write-off at this point.  I don't know any knowledgeable OA collector who would want any of these near their collection. :sorry: 

At least I tried to couch it a little :insane:

Sorry Morgan as much as I hate to say it, and as much as I'm not an expert on Kane, the face value test does not look good.

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ooof $32k+ for 8 fake pieces yikes

there's a story linked from Bob Kane's wikipedia entry: https://web.archive.org/web/20090523105715/http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2007_03_15.html#013103

Quote

Bob had gotten to the point where he never drew anything. Never drew anything on the Batman comics, anyway. [Sheldon] Moldoff was ghosting them all and when he didn't, someone else did. The only thing I think Bob ever drew was when we'd be out somewhere, in a restaurant or someplace, and a pretty girl would come over to him and say, "Are you really the man who draws Batman?" Then he could whip out a little sketch for her, a big sketch if she was wearing something low-cut and would bend over to watch him draw.

One day I'm over at his house to discuss this newspaper strip idea we had and he's talking about who we might get to draw it. I was going to write it and we were going to get someone else to draw it. I'm not sure what he was going to do on it except sign his name. I said to him, "Bob, isn't it disappointing to you that you don't draw any more? You were once such a great artist." He wasn't but you had to talk to Bob that way.

He said, "Oh, no. Let me show you something." He took me into a little room in his house. It was his studio. I didn't even know he still had a studio. It was all set up with easels and things and there were paintings, paintings of clowns. You know the kind. Like the ones Red Skelton used to do. Just these insipid portraits of clowns, all signed very large, "Bob Kane." He was so proud of them. He said, "These are the paintings that are going to make me in the world of art. Batman was a big deal in one world and these paintings will soon be in every gallery in the world." He thought the Louvre was going to take down the Mona Lisa to put up his clown paintings. I didn't have the heart to tell him.

So a few months later, I'm up at DC and I ran into Eddie Herron. Eddie was another writer up there and we got to talking and Bob's name came up. Eddie said, "Did you hear? Bob's getting sued by one of his ghost artists."

I said, "How is that possible? Shelly Moldoff's suing Bob? But they had a clear deal. Shelly knew he wasn't going to get credit or anything..."

Eddie said, "No, not Shelly." Bob was being sued by the person who'd painted the clowns for him...

 

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Morgan: if you really want a Bob Kane Studio ghost, go through the HA.com archives to view the 1940s Detective Comics panel try-out pages of Batman, Joker, Robin original artwork for research. The ghosts that you pictured are not competently drawn/traced. Sorry. :flamed: 

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5 hours ago, delekkerste said:

The 2nd pic is the only one that even resembles what we know to be genuine Kane (and the writing looks a bit forced to me), but I'd just assume that it's guilty by association unless proven innocent.  Do we even know if these are ghosts or just outright fakes?  I mean, the Kane Studio ghosted pieces at least resemble Kane's art, right?  Aside from #2, these are bad beyond belief - I have a hard time believing anyone associated with Kane did these.  

The lot just looks to me like a big write-off at this point.  I don't know any knowledgeable OA collector who would want any of these near their collection. :sorry: 

this is totally correct

the second one is the only one that even looks like there's a possibility, but the remaining photos all appear to be forgeries to me, not done by anyone who even even spoke to Bob Kane by long distance. It's sad that with the advent of the internet, fraud like this has grown like Kudzu weeds..

 

 

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1 hour ago, comicartcom said:

this is totally correct

the second one is the only one that even looks like there's a possibility, but the remaining photos all appear to be forgeries to me, not done by anyone who even even spoke to Bob Kane by long distance. It's sad that with the advent of the internet, fraud like this has grown like Kudzu weeds..

 

 

Also the sig on the 2nd image is the most Kane like. 

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9 hours ago, Captain Canuck said:

Also the sig on the 2nd image is the most Kane like. 

 

I see a lot of people comment on signatures on art as the authenticator unit. Not sure where that method comes from. You look at the art. The art speaks everything you need to know.

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I've said that before, and also when people bring up things like Certs of Authenticity, authenticating services, etc.

The way an artist makes their marks in their work is every bit as indicative of their identity as their signatures, and there's more to go by. Being familiar with the artist's work is, one would think, a big part of that person's fandom of it.

But maybe less so for people collecting for "name" or a character rather than as a fan of the actual work of a given artist?

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Has the OP contacted Choice Collectibles with his new found information?  Be interesting to hear what they have to say.

I checked their website - if it's the same Choice collectibles the OP mentioned - looks like they sell a lot of overpriced prints.

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On 4/8/2017 at 10:18 AM, Morgan0714 said:

Are this at least legitimate Bob Kane ghosts?

Hello everyone! Been buying from Choice Collectibles at the San Diego comicon for years now but a buddy told me about the Bob Kane approved ghost artists. This got me thinking.... 

I'm a big boy and understand that I may not own anything that Bob Kane ever touched......just his ghosts.......My question is can someone at least verify if these sketches are at least one of the accepted Bob Kane ghosts? Some were brokered by Michael Fazio from Vintage Animation Gallery in Santa Monica, California.

I'm trying to learn so please excuse my ignorance on this subject. Prices I've paid have been from $4,000 to $8,000USD.

Pics will follow. 

here's what I would do if I were you

because you bought these all in California and California laws are very liberal with art fraud, I recommend having your lawyer contact both dealers.

agenting some to you as Vintage Animation Gallery did, does not absolve them from any liability and whether they can get their money back from their source is meaningless

whether the galleries knew these were fakes is not important. Chances are, Choice Collectibles sold others also, so they may be in a bind

I think you should be able to get at least a goodly portion of your money back, though any legal actions could potentially drag on for some time.

certainly, I don't believe you shuold give a pass to either of them.

they're big boys also!

 

 

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On 4/10/2017 at 11:29 PM, comicartcom said:

 

I see a lot of people comment on signatures on art as the authenticator unit. Not sure where that method comes from. You look at the art. The art speaks everything you need to know.

In this case it's a valid consideration because the OP is asking only if the art is from a sanctioned/supervised "ghost" artist,   A valid signature would indicate that whereas a forged signature would indicate it was a forgery by some third party who had no contact with or approval from Kane

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