Sample of DD #191 pencils by Miller 0

[FerranDelgado]

Sample of DD #191 pencils by Miller

Hi, I just found in a british fanzine a nice sample of DD #191 pencils along Austin's inks that allow to solve any doubts if the issue was laid out or fully penciled.

[Twanj]

Nice, should this be added to the old thread?

Here's one of them, but I think the migration is making it hard to find the older one

 

[alxjhnsn]

On the comicart-l and the CGC OA board, we have had a long conversation on the topic of the work split on the Miller DD run. This write-up is based on e-mails and posting from many people. Foremost among them are:

·      Mitch Itkowitz,

·      Ferran Delgado,

·      Gene Park (notes on 158, 162, 163, 179-180),

·      Mike O'Halloran (Theory on 182-184), and

·      NelsonAl (photocopies of 182 and 184; see below for their origin).

 

I took notes and created this summary. I believe it represents the best understanding available to us, but it may not be perfect. Other comments are welcome and especially if they come with evidence that I can cite.

 

Hope this helps. Be sure to save and reference!

 

This is the link to the post on the CGC OA board.

 

 

The consensus of how Miller/Janson executed the "Miller" DD run is as follows:

·      DD #158-161,163-172: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Janson.

Notes on the above issues:

o   Rubinstein was the cover inker for #158

o   Ditko did all the art for #162

o   Rubinstein was the co-inker (with Janson) for #163

o   See discussion of 168 below

·      DD #173-184: Layouts by Miller on the same sheet, embellishment by Janson

·      DD #185-190: Layouts by Miller on a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the published original art.

·      DD #191: Detailed layouts by Miller, finishes by Austin

 

The above summary was derived from a lot of evidence and some speculation. I'm going to try and capture that in the following notes:

·      Issue 168:

o   The issue: The GCD lists Miller as breakdown artist on issue 168 while the credits in the issue itself list Miller as artist but Janson as Inker and Embellisher. 

 

Notes: The issue was identified by MikeyO.

§  MikeyO: “[Regarding credits on 168 - ed], I would be hesitant to describe this as the same relationship when it comes to the division of labour where art is concerned in issues 173 on. I think, by looking at the art that what might be described as Miller "breakdowns" are closer to a finished product when it comes to 168, but given the public notations, I thought it was worth mentioning.”

§  NelsonAI states that he has photocopies that he describes as “full pencils" for this book.

§  I have chosen to accept Nelson's claim in my summary above; the sections below talk about his photocopies. I'll change it if better evidence comes along.

·      The style of the art shifted between 178 and 179-184, this made people wonder if the working method had changed.

o   There was once a theory that since issues 182-184 (Punisher arc) were originally intended for an earlier publication and since we know that from 185 on that Miller provided smaller pages with breakdowns that there might have a mix of (Miller pencils/Janson inks) and all Jansen pages from Miller layouts in those issues. It might be difficult to know who actually did what as the story was altered for the revised publication and changed situation.

o   Adding to the confusion was this comment posted by Klaus. In it he clearly states

“Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185.”

o   MikeyO, the articulator of the theory in the note above, later wrote:

“My theory is logical but needs support from other sources. Some one could counter and say the previous art drawn by Miller a year and a half or so ago may have been used as a complete issue (perhaps issue 183?). My guess is that other pages were inserted but I still think verification is necessary.

 

Mitch [Itkowitz - ed] had responded that your previous supposition was correct (that Miller went to breakdowns and Janson finished on the same page for 182 to 184), but if you think about the possible rationalization that Mitch is using to assume this you can determine he may be coming to an erroneous conclusion. As Mitch said he got the whole issue of 181 from Janson to sell because he essentially drew the issue, so Mitch would assume any issue he received the complete book would be done in this method and any book where Mitch received only partial pages to an issue would indicate that Miller did breakdowns on the page and Janson finished. The problem with that logic is that as we have discussed that some pages to issues 182-4 would have been done by Miller more than a year ago and obviously returned to him and Janson could still be working the procedure of following Miller layouts on 8 by 11 paper that was instituted with issue 181 on the pages that were added to issues 182-4. Therefore, Mitch would not get a complete book as Miller would get his pages back even though they were done many months ago but Janson could still be the only person that added anything new.

 

Others have said that the Punisher storyline was meant for issue 167 as a one-part story. As said, my rationale is that they added pages to make up a two-part story. Evidence to lend credence to my theory is given by Grand Comic Book Database that credits Roger McKenzie as the co writer for issue 183 and 184. Roger's last story on DD was issue 167 and after that he was done with the title, so they are obviously crediting him with both issues as they broke up the one issue and expanded into two. Now, the question is was the new art done by the process started in 181 or did Miller work on the same sheet as Janson? It's bending a little towards the former, but not a dunk yet.”

·      New information was presented by NelsonAl in a post  on the CGC boards that indicated that he had photocopies of the pencils for issues 168 (described as "crappy") and DD issues 182 and 184. This really galvanized the conversation since it contradicted Klaus' statement.

·      At the 2014 NYCC, Nelson and Gene Park discussed the issue with Klaus. Gene wrote the following about that visit,

“A few of us talked at length with Klaus today on this subject.  We had some #176 pages with us (that we know are Miller layouts on the board), I brought my #181 page (which was one of the issues that we weren't sure about) and Nelson brought a bunch of his photocopied Miller pencils with him as well.  After reviewing the artwork and the photocopies, Klaus believes that the separate sheet layouts started with #185 after all.  

 

He said that his & Frank's artistic relationship was a progression, so that when Frank went to the separate sheet layouts, they never went back to layouts on board.  As such, since we know from Nelson's archives that #182 and #184 were both Miller pencils on the board, we can deduce that #185 was the start of the separate sheet layouts.”

 

Furthermore, Klaus said that the handwritten "DAREDEVIL" at the top of pages was written by Frank when he did pencils on the board (at some point this becomes "DAREDEVIL" using a rubber stamp).  But, you'll notice from #185 that it became handwritten again - "DD #___" is what it says for a few issues before it becomes "Daredevil" written in ----script.  The latter is definitely confirmed to be Klaus' notation on pages done with separate sheet layouts, and it stands to reason that the former is also Klaus, as it's not Frank's writing.  I think this bolsters the case for #185 being the start.

 

As for Klaus getting all of the #181 art back, he confirmed that sometimes they would trade off getting full books as opposed to splitting up the pages in each issue.  So, even if he got the whole #181 book back, that doesn't necessarily mean that Frank didn't do pencils on the board.

 

Bottom line:  I'm satisfied at this point that any stylistic changes we see between #178 and #179-#184 is just the progression of the artwork over time and that separate sheet layouts did begin with #185 after all.”

·      One last comment on this from Gene provides the origin of the photocopies from Nelson,

“Thanks to Nelson who brought photocopies of Miller's pencils to DD #182, 184 and Wolverine LS #1 to the show today.  I don't know if he mentioned it before, but he found these at a garage or yard sale in Brooklyn - apparently the house was rented by a Marvel editor/staffer of some sort, who left behind all these photocopies which were then sold.  Amazing that Nelson was able to recover these before they were lost to the world.

 

I can confirm that every page from DD #182 and #184 are finished Miller layouts directly on the board.  There are a few of us who are going to try and track down Janson at the show tomorrow and show him that these issues were done directly on the board, and to see if there was a reason #179-#181 were done on separate sheet layouts or whether he was mistaken and these too were layouts directly on the board.  I'm going to bring my DD #181 page and the TPB which features the issues in question as visual aids.  So, hopefully we can get to the bottom of this tomorrow.

 

As for the Wolvie LS #1, they are definitely finished layouts on board as well.  So, I don't know if Rubinstein was exaggerating the level of his involvement on this mini-series or if the later issues got progressively less detailed.  But, as far as issue #1 goes, it is definitely detailed layouts and nothing even remotely close to loose shapes or squiggles.”

·      Regarding issue 191, NelsonAl wrote:

I have some copies of FM pencils from # 191. FM did detailed layouts not full pencils. Austin did finishes.

More recently, Ferran Delgado posted that he found images in the page of a British fanzine that show this to be true. He wrote that is from the british fanzine 'Arken Sword' #26, which included an interview with Terry Austin & Mark Farmer. You can read it here.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by alxjhnsn
More detail from Ferran

[alxjhnsn]

On 4/13/2017 at 10:20 AM, FerranDelgado said:

Sample of DD #191 pencils by Miller

Hi, I just found in a british fanzine a nice sample of DD #191 pencils along Austin's inks that allow to solve any doubts if the issue was laid out or fully penciled.

Ferran,

Can you tell me the name an issue of the fanzine?

Thanks,

Alex

[J.Sid]

THE BULK of pages from DD#183 are full Miller pencils from the story previously scheduled as DD#167.

There were a FEW pages added later to DD#183 which tied into other later plotlines which were going on during the time. 

If you are familiar with Miller's style from that era, it is not that difficult to decipher which are which. (It's even easier if you are looking at OA: they are labeled "167" at the top ")

Edited April 15, 2017 by J.Sid
typo

[FerranDelgado]

4 hours ago, alxjhnsn said:

Ferran,

Can you tell me the name an issue of the fanzine?

Thanks,

Alex

Alex,

It's from the british fanzine 'Arken Sword' #26, which included an interview with Terry Austin & Mark Farmer. You can read it here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz-VsUjOG2SibjY4aXg4QkJVU0E/view

[alxjhnsn]

Thanks, I'll add this above and to my master list.