First Appearance of Scott Lang versus First Appearance of Second Ant Man 0

[Comic_Book_Chaser3]

First Appearance of Scott Lang versus First Appearance of Second Ant Man

Hi everyone,

Can anyone explain why Avengers 181 (1st appearance of Scott Lang) is worth less than Marvel Premiere #47 (1st appearance of the new Ant Man)?  Avengers 181 precedes MP #47 so it SHOULD be worth more than MP#47 but it's not.

I'm curious because I look at the Overstreet Guide value of Marvel Super-Heroes #13 (first Carol Danvers), and it is worth substantially more than Ms. Marvel #1 (first appearance of Ms. Marvel). Yes, I get it that MSH #13 is about 10 years older than Ms. Marvel #1, but this seems like a good analogy because the first appearance of Carol Danvers or of Scott Lang is the TRUE first appearance because it precedes the first appearance of the character in super-hero costume.

[Readcomix]

On April 14, 2017 at 2:04 AM, Why Comics Rule said:

First Appearance of Scott Lang versus First Appearance of Second Ant Man

Hi everyone,

Can anyone explain why Avengers 181 (1st appearance of Scott Lang) is worth less than Marvel Premiere #47 (1st appearance of the new Ant Man)?  Avengers 181 precedes MP #47 so it SHOULD be worth more than MP#47 but it's not.

I'm curious because I look at the Overstreet Guide value of Marvel Super-Heroes #13 (first Carol Danvers), and it is worth substantially more than Ms. Marvel #1 (first appearance of Ms. Marvel). Yes, I get it that MSH #13 is about 10 years older than Ms. Marvel #1, but this seems like a good analogy because the first appearance of Carol Danvers or of Scott Lang is the TRUE first appearance because it precedes the first appearance of the character in super-hero costume.

Seems it's an inconsistent area. Just as Scott Lang is introduced as a character and later becomes Ant-Man, Rhodey is introduced in Iron Man 118 but becomes War Machine in 282. Price gap not as great, but it seems slightly in favor of 282. I would tend to think of both as keys for both characters. Only argument I can think of to explain your Carol Danvers point is the age gap between the two books as you pointed out already and the massive print run of the #1. It's not like I have all the #'s for every Marvel book published in that decade, but the anecdotes indicate the Ms Marvel 1 print run may have been second only to Star Wars 1. Maybe that's the reason? But I tend to think our smallish market is simply fickle.

[Kevin76]

better cover on the MP 47

[Readcomix]

59 minutes ago, Kevin76 said:

better cover on the MP 47

That too.

(181 is a cool Avengers cover, but unlike MP47 it is NOT Scott Lang-centric)

[Comic_Book_Chaser3]

Thank you all for offering your interesting insights.

[OtherEric]

There's also the whole issue of how the character is used.  The entire point of the Avengers 181 appearance is to introduce the character who is going to show up the very next month as Ant-Man.  The MSH 13 introduces a fairly major supporting character who showed up in a lot of Captain Marvel stories as well as the Kree/ Skrull War.

I think, despite the lack of costume in the Avengers 181, you've got a Hulk 180/181 analogy.  The Scott Lang appearance in Avengers is noteworthy, but not ultimately major.  Carol Danvers has quite a bit of history before becoming Ms. Marvel.

[Readcomix]

3 hours ago, OtherEric said:

There's also the whole issue of how the character is used.  The entire point of the Avengers 181 appearance is to introduce the character who is going to show up the very next month as Ant-Man.  The MSH 13 introduces a fairly major supporting character who showed up in a lot of Captain Marvel stories as well as the Kree/ Skrull War.

I think, despite the lack of costume in the Avengers 181, you've got a Hulk 180/181 analogy.  The Scott Lang appearance in Avengers is noteworthy, but not ultimately major.  Carol Danvers has quite a bit of history before becoming Ms. Marvel.

That's a great distinction....Danvers, like Rhodey, was repurposed and developed as a character. (Bill Foster/Black Goliath too). But Lang out of the gate was being tee'd up. It's a quick turnaround from intro as supporting character to true purpose, but it's a cool little set-up. Didn't Mystique roll out this way in Ms Marvel 16-18? 

[kimik]

3 hours ago, Readcomix said:

That's a great distinction....Danvers, like Rhodey, was repurposed and developed as a character. (Bill Foster/Black Goliath too). But Lang out of the gate was being tee'd up. It's a quick turnaround from intro as supporting character to true purpose, but it's a cool little set-up. Didn't Mystique roll out this way in Ms Marvel 16-18? 

Yup. And it is Ms. Marvel #18 that is the key Mystique book to have.

You can also look at 1st Cletus Kasady (ASM #344) and 1st Carnage (ASM #360 cameo and ASM #361 full), or even Eddie Brock (Web #18) and 1st Venom (ASM #299 cameo and #300 full), as other examples. 1st appearance of regular Joe blow character does not matter as much relative to their 1st appearance as a hero or villain.

[Lazyboy]

10 hours ago, kimik said:

Yup. And it is Ms. Marvel #18 that is the key Mystique book to have.

Why is that, though? She appears on 1 page of MM 16 as a mysterious, obscured character. Then she appears on 7 pages of MM 17, uses her shape-shifting power and is called "Raven" by Ballard. In MM 18 she appears on only 1 page, calls herself "Raven Darkholme" and reverts to her true form in the last panel.

10 hours ago, kimik said:

You can also look at 1st Cletus Kasady (ASM #344) and 1st Carnage (ASM #360 cameo and ASM #361 full), or even Eddie Brock (Web #18) and 1st Venom (ASM #299 cameo and #300 full), as other examples. 1st appearance of regular Joe blow character does not matter as much relative to their 1st appearance as a hero or villain.

It's Venom who appears (barely) in WoSM 18. Eddie Brock does not appear anywhere before he becomes Venom.

[Lazyboy]

On 2017-04-14 at 1:04 AM, Why Comics Rule said:

Hi everyone,

Can anyone explain why Avengers 181 (1st appearance of Scott Lang) is worth less than Marvel Premiere #47 (1st appearance of the new Ant Man)?  Avengers 181 precedes MP #47 so it SHOULD be worth more than MP#47 but it's not.

I'm curious because I look at the Overstreet Guide value of Marvel Super-Heroes #13 (first Carol Danvers), and it is worth substantially more than Ms. Marvel #1 (first appearance of Ms. Marvel). Yes, I get it that MSH #13 is about 10 years older than Ms. Marvel #1, but this seems like a good analogy because the first appearance of Carol Danvers or of Scott Lang is the TRUE first appearance because it precedes the first appearance of the character in super-hero costume.

1. Nobody cares about Scott Lang if/when he isn't Ant-Man. He was created solely to become the new Ant-Man.

2. Scott Lang appears in only 3 panels on 1 page of Avengers 181, working on the security system. He's not a relevant part of the story. If the same writer (David Michelinie) wasn't responsible for both stories, he most likely wouldn't have appeared in Avengers (181) at all.

3. The issues are a month apart and I'm sure Avengers had a higher print run and distribution than Marvel Premiere.

[OtherEric]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Why is that, though? She appears on 1 page of MM 16 as a mysterious, obscured character. Then she appears on 7 pages of MM 17, uses her shape-shifting power and is called "Raven" by Ballard. In MM 18 she appears on only 1 page, calls herself "Raven Darkholme" and reverts to her true form in the last panel.

It's Venom who appears (barely) in WoSM 18. Eddie Brock does not appear anywhere before he becomes Venom.

It's because in 18 she shows up in her true form.  I'm not sure that's not enough to warrant that being the key book of the 3, but I would certainly prefer the 17 to the 16 if I had to choose.  I really don't understand why the 17 is the cheap one of the 3 issues.

[kimik]

On 4/19/2017 at 7:37 PM, Lazyboy said:

It's Venom who appears (barely) in WoSM 18. Eddie Brock does not appear anywhere before he becomes Venom.

Good point. I thought it was Eddie in WoSM 18. I have not read it since I was a kid.

It is funny how fickle the market is with "the key" 1st appearances. The fist in bandages hitting a wall in Superman MOS #17 is enough, but a full page with Carnage in ASM #360 does not count.

Edited April 21, 2017 by kimik

[joe_collector]

On 4/14/2017 at 2:04 AM, Why Comics Rule said:

Can anyone explain why Avengers 181 (1st appearance of Scott Lang) is worth less than Marvel Premiere #47 (1st appearance of the new Ant Man)?  Avengers 181 precedes MP #47 so it SHOULD be worth more than MP#47 but it's not.

Funny how I was pushing for this when the whole Avengers 181 madness was upon us before the Antman movie debuted...

My reasons were pretty clear, a) Avengers sold a LOT more than Marvel Premiere at the time and were collected in far greater numbers so NM/M copies of MP 47 would be much rarer comparatively speaking, b) CGC has created a "cover generation" and having Antman on the cover is going to push it ahead of Avengers 181, and c) I always prefer the *actual* first appearance of the superhero over his or her non-powered counterpart.

[Jeffro.]

On 4/21/2017 at 2:03 PM, kimik said:

 

On 4/19/2017 at 9:37 PM, Lazyboy said:

It's Venom who appears (barely) in WoSM 18. Eddie Brock does not appear anywhere before he becomes Venom.

Good point. I thought it was Eddie in WoSM 18. I have not read it since I was a kid.

It is funny how fickle the market is with "the key" 1st appearances. The fist in bandages hitting a wall in Superman MOS #17 is enough, but a full page with Carnage in ASM #360 does not count.

Edited April 21 by kimik

 

The first appearance of Venom's forearm as I recall

 I don't remember. There was a story behind that arm appearance and then Venom not showing up until years later.