"It's not for sale... unless the price is right" 2 2

[ParamagicFF]

"It's not for sale... unless the price is right"

Just wondering how you all approach these situations. It seems almost every time I ask if an owner is willing to part with a piece, I am met with some variation of this response: "I wasn't planning on selling, but I suppose I would if I was offered the right amount". 

This seems like a really tough way to start a negotiation. I think it goes without saying that just about anyone would sell any piece if offered an exorbitant amount, so why even mention it in a response? Do you all feel this is a way to open up real talks of a sale? Or is it more likely just fishing for what offers could be out there? Do any of you ever respond like this?

I should mention I'm speaking about pieces with a FMV in the low-mid hundreds, nothing exceedingly rare or high profile. Just art that meets my tastes and I happen to have missed on the open market previously.

[Mr. Machismo]

I typically respond that way to inquiries on NFS pieces. It's not listed, but I'm always open to hearing offers. The onus is on the person inquiring to make said offer since it's not technically on the market. What irks me is when people reach out unsolicited and refuse to state an offer price when requested.

Anywho, I've both bought and sold pieces this way. Sometimes you run into people who are looking for market value or below, and others a FMV multiple. That's why, personally, I don't write people off based on verbiage. 

[Twanj]

If you are contacting someone then they have all the power in the negotiation. 

If something is worth $300-400 and you offer an extra $100-200 on top of that, it's not even worth them packing up and shipping it if they like the piece. It's easier to just keep it and keep enjoying it. 

[ParamagicFF]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

I typically respond that way to inquiries on NFS pieces. It's not listed, but I'm always open to hearing offers. The onus is on the person inquiring to make said offer since it's not technically on the market. What irks me is when people reach out unsolicited and refuse to state an offer price when requested.

Anywho, I've both bought and sold pieces this way. Sometimes you run into people who are looking for market value or below, and others a FMV multiple. That's why, personally, I don't write people off based on verbiage. 

Thanks for the tip. So you don't think someone offering FMV when prompted for " the right price" would sour you on dealing with them? I should preface that I am assuming FMV based on similar pieces. Im certainly no expert.

3 minutes ago, Twanj said:

If you are contacting someone then they have all the power in the negotiation. 

If something is worth $300-400 and you offer an extra $100-200 on top of that, it's not even worth them packing up and shipping it if they like the piece. It's easier to just keep it and keep enjoying it. 

I can certainly see that. But for someone like me who buys art in that price range, that's still a 25% or better return. If it would take a double FMV offer to move it, doesn't that go without saying? Maybe not, I'm quite new to this. I certainly agree they have all the power.

 

I should mention I'm not looking to negotiate some killer deal in all of this. Just looking at a way to approach these situations without offending or hurting a possible relationship with the owner. After all, if we share the same taste in art it's possible we could end up with other possible transactions in the future and I would hate to sour that. I know some people's collections scale from the low hundreds to the many thousands, and I have a hard time approaching that I suppose.

[Twanj]

I mean it depends on the piece, person, and their situation. 

 

Why sell it to you for fmv when they could just sell it for fmv (if they're not motivated).

 

All I try to do is research and make a fair offer. It gets the ball rolling. If my offer isn't motivated enough why should the owner sell?

[Weird Paper]

My collection is a collection. It's not inventory. If somebody asks about a piece, I tell them I'm not actively trying to sell it, but they are welcome to make an offer. I've accepted such offers before -- both cash and trade offers -- though not frequently. If that offer is market value, or "I know from auction records you paid this much, so that's what I'll offer you" forget it. Chances are, I bought it for market value, and unless I've soured on it for some reason, or deemed it no longer viable in my collection (upgrade, etc.), there's no reason other than financial desperation that I'd turn around and sell it for that.

[ParamagicFF]

Just now, Weird Paper said:

My collection is a collection. It's not inventory. If somebody asks about a piece, I tell them I'm not actively trying to sell it, but they are welcome to make an offer. I've accepted such offers before -- both cash and trade offers -- though not frequently. If that offer is market value, or "I know from auction records you paid this much, so that's what I'll offer you" forget it. Chances are, I bought it for market value, and unless I've soured on it for some reason, or deemed it no longer viable in my collection (upgrade, etc.), there's no reason other than financial desperation that I'd turn around and sell it for that.

I completely get that, and that's how I would feel as a seller as well I imagine. But the only way to know is to ask/offer. This wouldn't sour you on dealing with a potential buyer in the future would it? I know I wouldn't write someone off all together for making an offer lower than I'd like, but I'm interested in others thoughts. I just want to make sure I use some proper etiquette when going about these things. I appreciate all the feedback.

[Bronty]

Well it's like someone expressed earlier, depends on the person.    Some will (and you can't really blame them) be annoyed at being offered the price they paid.    And for the odd person who needs money the inquiry might be a relief.   I would say judge each situation on its own merits but don't waste people's time.   You are coming to them, not the other way around, so just come out with what you are looking for quickly and directly .    When your in the shoes of being the person with the piece you will quickly see that it's rather insipid to go through ten emails of BS with someone just to have them offer you what you paid or even less than what you paid when you had no intention to sell or any desire to have the conversation

Edited April 26, 2017 by Bronty

[Weird Paper]

15 minutes ago, ParamagicFF said:

I completely get that, and that's how I would feel as a seller as well I imagine. But the only way to know is to ask/offer. This wouldn't sour you on dealing with a potential buyer in the future would it? I know I wouldn't write someone off all together for making an offer lower than I'd like, but I'm interested in others thoughts. I just want to make sure I use some proper etiquette when going about these things. I appreciate all the feedback.

Not at all.

[ESeffinga]

Everybody is going to have a somewhat different reaction based on who they are and their attitude, plus the particular piece in question, and how they approach their collection. Yes, many people will say, "I'm not actively selling, but if the price is right..." and that is a loaded statement.

On the whole I'm with Mr. Machismo, that it's up to the shopper to throw out a number that's not going to be offensive.

So if you are asking the group here is it's OK to offer someone current FMV for a not for sale piece in someone's gallery on CAF, I think the majority view is going to be that it's not a good idea. You can do anything you like, but don't expect to have a great reputation doing that.

You are going about it the smart way, understanding this hobby is pretty closed loop. You invariably will rub shoulders with many of the same folks, and especially where similar collecting interests are shared.

Most folks that contact me about NFS pieces usually just say "would you be open to selling this piece". Not an offer right off the bat, but just the opening communication.

I've been collecting art for over 25 years now, and if I'm trying to pry a piece loose, I'd never come out of the gate with anything less than a 50-75% bump in FMV for anything under $5K,. Under $1K, I'm at least 2x FMV. I once bought a $200 piece for $800 because I really wanted it. As my collection focused and narrowed, I sold it off for 2xs that. Those margins don't work out for everything, but I've bought pieces well over market value that I'm sure I'll be lucky to get 75% of the value back. But it's not always about the $.

I've turned down offers of 5 and 6xs market value on pieces that are cheap but important to me. Many collectors have relationships with the art they collect that run deeper than the dollar value someone assigns to it. So even the crazy offer isn't going to do it.

As an art owner, my usual go to reply, is if it's a piece I have zero interest in selling, I let the would-be buyer know that up front. But I also let them know I keep every offer I've ever been given on a piece. When I have sold things, usually before I start thinking about selling publicly, I just reach out to the folks that have left me those offers. Most of those emails get ignored, but I've sold several pieces like that over the years, and usually at very fair prices. And for friends, even well under market, just to hook them up. I'm all about paying it forward where I can. People have done me some great favors over the years in my collecting, and I like to give back when it feels right.

[comix4fun]

I agree with Eric, you've got to come correct with an owner of a piece that's not for sale. Attempting to pry a piece that's not for sale loose while simultaneously trying to get yourself a smokin' deal rarely works and can have unintended long term consequences if it comes across as rude or insulting. Also, that's not always just about money and the amount offered. Many times it's overall attitude and respect. I think I've seen just about everything in the time I've collected artwork.

So if you reach out to a guy with a piece NFS, start slow, see if he's willing to talk it over, then you've got to hit him with a number that's AT LEAST today's market value and probably more just as an opener. Bringing up what someone paid for it at auction, regardless of when or under what circumstances is a non-starter unless you're using that number to illustrate how you're offering him some multiple of that price.

Too many guys, I think, don't realize how close knit and relatively small the art hobby is. Used car salesman tactics, rude statements, insults to the owners intelligence or experience etc. have a tendency to get around to other people and can sour that person's interactions with others in the future before they even reach out.

There was one time a guy who was posting all over various boards about how he "PAID THE MOST" and "DON'T SELL UNTIL YOU TALK TO ME!!" about some very key and very in demand artwork. Well, I found myself speaking to him about some of my art that was not for sale and he mustered up an offer that was a full 80% UNDER market value...and, as if the offer wasn't an insult enough, it came complete with a power point-style pictorial breakdown of my page about how it sucked, why it sucked, and how "even though this is really pretty bad, I'll still be willing to take it off your hands."

 

So, obviously, there is a right way to do things and some very VERY wrong ways to do things.

[ESeffinga]

7 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

There was one time a guy who was posting all over various boards about how he "PAID THE MOST" and "DON'T SELL UNTIL YOU TALK TO ME!!" about some very key and very in demand artwork. Well, I found myself speaking to him about some of my art that was not for sale and he mustered up an offer that was a full 80% UNDER market value...and, as if the offer wasn't an insult enough, it came complete with a power point-style pictorial breakdown of my page about how it sucked, why it sucked, and how "even though this is really pretty bad, I'll still be willing to take it off your hands."

THIS is hilarious (sorry). Did you keep the presentation? Oh man, I totally would have.

The worst (and most typical) "bad" behavior I encounter when someone wants to know if I'm interested in selling something NFS.

If I even open the door a little about possibly being OK with a sale, they immediately insist I put a price on the piece. While it may seem like no big deal on the surface, it irks me to no end. I'm not the one that approached someone about buying their art that was marked NFS. If someone's looking to buy something of mine, I do hope they have an idea of what they are prepared to pay for it. If I was looking to sell, I'd price it and put it in a FS gallery.

Look, nobody wants to be the one getting bilked in an art deal, but as a would-be buyer trying to pry a piece loose, I make damn sure I'm at least UP there, making it worthwhile, if not total shock and awe levels. And as someone who's seen some shock and awe prices thrown my way on my pieces that I've turned down, I can say that happens too. Depends on how bad I want something, or how deeply entrenched my love of a piece in my own collection is.

 

[Mr. Machismo]

@ pictorial breakdown. Gold!

[comix4fun]

4 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

THIS is hilarious (sorry). Did you keep the presentation? Oh man, I totally would have.

The worst (and most typical) "bad" behavior I encounter when someone wants to know if I'm interested in selling something NFS.

If I even open the door a little about possibly being OK with a sale, they immediately insist I put a price on the piece. While it may seem like no big deal on the surface, it irks me to no end. I'm not the one that approached someone about buying their art that was marked NFS. If someone's looking to buy something of mine, I do hope they have an idea of what they are prepared to pay for it. If I was looking to sell, I'd price it and put it in a FS gallery.

Look, nobody wants to be the one getting bilked in an art deal, but as a would-be buyer trying to pry a piece loose, I make damn sure I'm at least UP there, making it worthwhile, if not total shock and awe levels. And as someone who's seen some shock and awe prices thrown my way on my pieces that I've turned down, I can say that happens too. Depends on how bad I want something, or how deeply entrenched my love of a piece in my own collection is.

 

In retrospect, it is hilarious. At the time I was fuming. Although, my grandfather taught me when I was young that if someone does you the service of showing you their true face, take it as a favor. You can spend your whole life being fooled by people, so when one of them drops the facade and lets you know exactly what you're dealing with it's a gift.

And this was the gift that keeps on giving...I've told that story more times than I can count. It's been over 10 years now, I don't think I still have the email.

Agree with you 1000% that if someone comes to you on a piece that you own that's NFS its up to THEM to set a number. It's not for you to tell them "Your rock bottom number", "the least you'll take", " a ballpark you'll be happy to play in" as a small sampling of the ones I've had tossed my way.

[malvin]

I think Chris, Eric, Roger and others have captured my thoughts well.

As a buyer, I almost never approach someone if it wasn't for sale.  I have done it once or twice and made a 6K offer for a piece that is probably worth less than 5K.  It got his attention but he wanted a higher offer and I politely said that's the most I can go and if I may contact him again later if that changes.

As for my gallery.  When I first started collecting, I put something like "for the right price everything is for sale" int he FS status of my pieces, which could mean anything (e.g. if I was interested in selling, FMV would do it, if I was not interested in selling it would have to be multiples of FMV).  I have since changed that (although I think old pieces still might have that tag unfortunately) but I basically just put NFS if it is not for sale and "NFS.. but if never hurts to ask" if I am more inclined to sell that piece at FMV if someone was interested.

But yes, nothing irks me more than someone who inquires then offers a fraction of FMV.  Or someone who professes to be a fan, beats you down on price, then after I relent they throw out additional terms like time payments which were not mentioned up front.

Malvin

[ParamagicFF]

Thank you all for your feedback, this has been an excellent, and healthy discussion.

On the particular piece in subject, I happen to come across the last sale price, and since I don't think I could offer something in multiple of that, simply informed them of the fact, thanked them for their response, and complimented their collection once more.

I've only bought art from creators, which presents many less challenges than other collectors.

[The Voord]

55 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

 

There was one time a guy who was posting all over various boards about how he "PAID THE MOST" and "DON'T SELL UNTIL YOU TALK TO ME!!" about some very key and very in demand artwork. Well, I found myself speaking to him about some of my art that was not for sale and he mustered up an offer that was a full 80% UNDER market value...and, as if the offer wasn't an insult enough, it came complete with a power point-style pictorial breakdown of my page about how it sucked, why it sucked, and how "even though this is really pretty bad, I'll still be willing to take it off your hands."

 

 

Sounds like we're in Keif Fromm territory . . .

[comix4fun]

Just now, The Voord said:

Sounds like we're in Keif Fromm territory . . .

It wasn't him this time, but I see what you mean....

I tend to stop communicating with people if I think it's going in that direction before they can go Full-Keif on me

[The Voord]

I sometimes get collectors wanting to buy stuff listed as NFS in my CAF galleries.

If I'm possibly interested in selling (as was the case a few weeks ago), I'll provide an asking price.

If not, I'll tell the would-be-buyer to make me a tempting offer.  That stance rarely gets followed-up on (I did a thread on this some months ago).

[The Voord]

7 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

It wasn't him this time, but I see what you mean....

I tend to stop communicating with people if I think it's going in that direction before they can go Full-Keif on me

Not a good idea to do business with convicted shop-lifter types!