Starlin and CGC 1 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

Meh. I know I'm ranting, and, to a great extent, preaching to the choir.

I used to hate signed books, precisely because they were so impersonal and relatively easy (if not really cost effective) to forge.

I didn't discover Sig Series until 2008. I had that same "sigs are a waste of time" mentality that I developed in the early 90's.

Then I had the opportunity to get in on Frazetta, and I though "huh. This is history. I can't miss this."

So, I dove in...and did a complete about-face. I fell in love with the whole idea. (Forever thanks to Chainnball, wherever you are these days, for being the man with the plan.)

I wish I'd discovered it earlier, so much.

I don't mind buying "already signed" books...but really, the thrill is going to see these guys in person, to hand them my books, and then see it happen in front of me...and then get them graded and put in a tidy case. That just combines everything about comics collecting that makes me tick.

I wish I'd been around in the early days. I wish I'd taken part in that December, 2004 signing with Byrne, the only one that ever happened. I wish I'd been involved with the Maz signing. I have boxes of Dave Stevens books...I don't think anyone ever did a single Dave Stevens signing. I do have a single Alan Moore book, and, I think, an important one as it goes, LOEG #1. But no MM, no Swamps, no KJ.

Can you imagine, a 9.8 ST #21 signed by Bernie, Len, Alan, Veitch, Tot, Bissette, and Yeates...? I get excited just thinking about it, and then remember that the days of Bernie signing anything are, sadly, behind us.

I missed Jim Aparo. There are a few, and I'm glad they got done, but I wish I'd gotten mine done. Batman #417-420, 426-429, 440-442...the defining moments of my early collecting days...now unsigned, forever.

Sigh.

I missed when McFarlane was free, and I can forget about that Infinity, Inc. run...there's probably 2 or 3 guys in the world who care about it, and I'm one of them. I can't spend $100+ a book, all in, to get quarter books signed. It makes no sense. Same with Hulk #330-339, 341-346. Nevermind. Same with Invasion #1 and #2, and Tec #476-478, and ASM #302-328, and...you get the idea. Far too expensive, and no way to mitigate the costs, because McFarlane doesn't want anyone "making money off his sig." Oh, sure, just get a bunch of 9.8 #300s and have him sign those, that'll pay for the others...know anyone selling 9.8 #300s on the cheap...?

PS. ADAMANTIUM, it wasn't CGC who told that writer to charge...it was the guy...who I otherwise like and respect...who was CGC's facilitator for that show. Just for the record.

Edited May 24, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

The bottom line is that I love this program, and I love that it exists, and I love that it gives me the opportunity I never would have had otherwise to interact with these creators, and I hate that people whose sole and only goal is $$$$ have soiled so much of it, and I hate that no one has taken the time to adequately explain all of this to everyone involved in a way that sticks, and I hope this doesn't become what happened in sports, but I don't see any other outcome without an ombudsman/ambassador doing the heavy lifting of helping everyone involved understand how it all works, and CGC taking seriously the issues created by the $$$$$ only people, and even then, it might be too late.

 

[Ryan.]

[ADAMANTIUM]

  I hear you RMA and definitely don't want to step on toes, there is no (as of now) perfect solution to this. People may complain of the passionate views of some, and in the end, I'm sure the squeaky wheel will get the grease 

It's nice to be in a safe place that although passionate we can get it out quickly and feel we've at least said or done something. In the end, it will be determined but will take time. If it swings one way or the other, take it in stride while still trying to account for why other's feel and say things they do. No Worries here, if it takes a turn, I'm sure it will swing back the other way.

What I wonder is if those artists that are familiar with charging for SS will now discuss with Starlin and his unlearned mistake. Even if the customer paid CGC in advance for the sig, or some other way that CGC somehow owed Starlin the fee's, Starlin's reaction should speak for itself. My fear is that many will not do the research of Starlin's posts to see the underlying fall out. He isn't dogging grading except for CGC and would still accept other grading services (supposedly), yet cancelled all further shows at the moment and made public posts calling SS stupid in general. It's a tipping point perhaps not a breaking point. I'm going to try to stay upbeat, because I don't want it to drag it out longer than it should. I agree with you about SS nostalgia and think that there is more of that among collector's of such than any "flippers" and those voices will be heard.

[roach04]

Great discussion folks.

I'm very new to SS - 2, maybe 3 years in.  I was familiar with it (heck, it was invented in Toronto) but never paid a lot of attention.  Being pointed to these boards got me hooked.  As a newbie, I am saddened that I never got a Frazetta.  That BWS has closed the the door to future SS ops.  And that Paul Smith and John Byrne don't seem to attend conventions anymore.

RMA makes alot of good points as he does in most threads I've seen him.   I'm actually that guy who pays the fee for books that are guaranteed to be worth nothing!  My Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans is issue #39.  Sure, it's a 9.8, but I got it done bc it was one of my favorite covers from their legendary run.  I paid for a completely worthless (even in 9.8!) American Flagg! #1 to be signed by Chaykin bc I love his work and that's the series in my collection I most associate with the man.  I've got a Superboy #223 signed by Grell (mostly bc all my Warlord's are too damn well read to for even me to pay the slabbing fee!).  I'm a fan of the guys who did those books.  I've got raw books signed by each of them but thought it'd be wonderful to get a SS in my collection for the same reason we all collect anything -- I wanted one!

I'd like to see some sanity return and have creators "get" that some of us are still just fans of their work.  It's foolish for me to say I'd never sell any of my SS books bc one never knows what troubles may come, but I have never bought/acquired a SS book with the thought being "I'll flip this for mad cash" because as all have stated - that's not how it works.  I didn't get my ASM #300 done by Todd and David - bc #311 is my favourite cover in that run  (not as legendary as Wolfman/Perez NTT - but still half decent!)  

Prior to becoming an addict of the SS program, the only guy I'd ever given money to for a signature was Stan Lee - and at that time it was $30 - not the $100 ($125?) it is now.  And that I was fine to do bc it was Stan.  And - he was the only comic creator I'd ever met that had actually asked for money to sign comics - he was the oddity, not the norm.  When I'd attend conventions in the past and see the fees posted by folks like William Shatner I'd think "I'm a fan...but not that big a fan."  I do believe that at this point in time, Rob Liefeld charges more than Shatner.  Shatner would be stopped on the street by people.  Rob Liefeld could walk from LA to NYC and very realistically not run into anyone who'd recognize him - comics are a niche of a niche of niche.

It's a touch situation though.  I get the perspective of the creators.  I feel the perspective of the fans.  Like most things, I think conversations help move things forward.  I'd imagine Jim Starlin must have some concept that Iron Man #55 is worth more than Weird #1.  And as a guy who's worked in comics for a long time, he'd know NM anything is worth more than the copy that fell in the bathtub.  But I think from his (or whomevers) seat it's just easier to say "for CGC?  $5 each".  Not great for us and things like RMA's getting all the McFarlane Infinity Inc's done (which would've been awesome, btw!) become not feasible very quickly.

Edit - want to add that I feel the facilitators on the boards play a huge role and provide a lot of value - bc the vast majority of us likely get to our local shows and not much more.  And if Jim Starlin only visits your town once every 20 years it's nice to be able to contact a Rich Henn, Parch, Doug Peters, Beachbum, Kevlar and say "can you get Starlin in Texas for me."  For creator that have a $20 fee that you don't think are worth $20 - let them pass!

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by roach04
included comments around SS facilitators

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, roach04 said:

 

Edit - want to add that I feel the facilitators on the boards play a huge role and provide a lot of value - bc the vast majority of us likely get to our local shows and not much more.  And if Jim Starlin only visits your town once every 20 years it's nice to be able to contact a Rich Henn, Parch, Doug Peters, Beachbum, Kevlar and say "can you get Starlin in Texas for me."  For creator that have a $20 fee that you don't think are worth $20 - let them pass!

 

I don't have a problem with all facilitators...just the facilitators who buy access to creators, make exclusive arrangements with creators, and muck it up for the guys doing it "on their own." If a facilitator is telling a creator "you should be charging a surcharge for CGC books", they are actively interfering with other people's business, including CGC's. And, if they're telling creators "people doing CGC are doing it for the money" or people with more than 1 comic are "subbing to flip", they are lying to them.

You want to charge, charge...but charge everyone the same price, like Stan does. Charge $10,000...but don't be free for "fans", and $10,000 for "slabbers", on the erroneous assumption that anyone doing CGC is doing it to "make money", or that your sig automatically adds value to anything you sign.

[Pirate]

I have starlin on either my heroes for hope or the Heroes against hunger, can't remember.  I made sure to get all my favorite bronze age guys on those two books.  Don't need individuals  Oh the days of 30x signed books.  Now I mainly collect SS photo's.  There is no comic creator out there I have to have anymore.