Jim Starlin hates CGC! 3 3

[ComicConnoisseur]

18 minutes ago, mrwoogieman said:

Anyone who creates anything should be free to monetize their signature or any other thing they want to sell and that people want to buy. Let them decide what 'rewards' they should bestow upon their fans.

Agreed, but the high road morally is to give fans a reward for supporting them all these years, and not profiting off them. 

This has been happening a lot in the industry with fans who love this hobby being taken.

The biggest one is Marvel and DC charging $3.99 for monthly comics.

Fans are so addicted and love these characters and hobby that they will continue to pay the high prices.

It is time we the fans speak out, and not let the other participates decide things for us.

Without the fans they really don't have much.

 

[Prince Namor]

28 minutes ago, TeamStarlin said:

The root of all (this) evil is CGC.

No no no... it was there LONG before CGC. And CGC's primary function IS of importance to this hobby. 

Anyone who buys and sells high dollar books via the internet is thankful to at least have some semblance of order there. 

[Prince Namor]

20 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

A lot to unpack here.  I'll start with the first sentence.  Signing something is more work than not signing something.  Signed hundreds or thousands of times for each fan will give them hand cramps.  It costs energy.  It's work

Second, let's break down the hard earned cash they've gotten from fans buying a book.  Let's say you bought a book back in the 80's for $1.  Half of that is publisher profit, so 50c left.  Let's say a mere 15c to run the printing press and buy the ink and distribute the book.  35c left.  Split with writer/artist/inker/letterer.  So the writer for example gets a piece of 35 cents for your purchase.  Let's say he/she gets almost half, 17 cents.  So for 17 cents you've given him/her, what do you get? 

You get a physical creation, you get happiness and enjoyment for the time it takes you to read the comic, from the ownership of the comic, repeatable happiness and enjoyment from re-reading it at your leisure, and content/entertainment you could not create yourself for 17cents.  You also got the ability to re-sell their creation for 100% of the revenue, sending 0 of it back to them.

What does the creator get from you, aside from 17cents?  They get the opportunity to create, and the happiness they derive from that.  Now, if you think what they get from you means they owe you more than what they've already given you, I ask that you approach your own employment the same way (assuming you don't run your own business).  Your employer provides your opportunity to create, what do you owe them in addition to a workday, for your 17cents?

Regarding comic sales being down as a motive for signing fans' books free, that's a pretty mercenary way to look at it.  If they are in a bind, it seems you're saying that's the time to take advantage of it.  Sign my book or I'll quit buying.

Whether they are wealthy or not is irrelevant.  You are expecting them to give of themselves freely for no other reason than because you like their art. 

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying.  I think we should live in a mutual appreciation society.  I don't like the commodification of everything, which we have in our society.  I just don't think an expectation that someone owes you free stuff because you derived a lot of pleasure from their work is fair.  The fact that their creation means a lot to you doesn't mean that that means the same to them.

In the 70's they were getting a LOT less than 17 cents a book. More like a fraction of a penny..

[ComicConnoisseur]

13 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Whether they are wealthy or not is irrelevant.  You are expecting them to give of themselves freely for no other reason than because you like their art. 

They get plenty of free publicity when they go to these cons. That should be their payment.

It doesn't look right when a millionaire creator who got rich off these fans than double dips and charges these same fans for his autograph.

Like I said most of these artists/writers are not having their doors knocked down for current work, and should appreciate that they still have some fans left that want to line up for hours to meet them.

If artists/writers got together and said in unison that from now on we will give back to the fans with giving free autographs.

The interest in them would go off the charts!

It would be a good-will win situation for the fans and creators long-term.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

CGC shouldve had a representative at EVERY show over the last few years, who's sole purpose was to talk to creators and to educate them on what CGC and SS is and is about...

This has the potential to grow WAY beyond a PR memo being sent out or an apology.. the misinformation has a way to grow and grow...

Positive PR is a proactive endeavor, fixing Bad PR is always an uphill climb...

[Prince Namor]

3 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

They get plenty of free publicity when they go to these cons. That should be their payment.

It doesn't look right when a millionaire creator who got rich off these fans than double dips and charges these same fans for his autograph.

Like I said most of these artists/writers are not having their doors knocked down for current work, and should appreciate that they still have some fans left that want to line up for hours to meet them.

If artists/writers got together and said in unison that from now on we will give back to the fans with giving free autographs.

The interest in them would go off the charts!

It would be a good-will win situation for the fans and creators long-term.

 

 

No. 

Because they DID for years and it didn't. 

What actually DOES happen, and you should know this from the sports card hobby, is that certain individuals take advantage of it for financial gain. 

And this is now how they see CGC. 

Drawing a comic book takes tremendous talent and work.. for some artists it's a 30 day process...

Please don't discredit it with this nonsense. Jim Starlin and people from his generation and before DID NOT become millionaires from the hobby. And as much as I love much of the work from that era and spent my money on it... they owe ME nothing. 

All hail the creator!

[Prince Namor]

And CC, did you know that many of those creators PAY their own way to set up at shows, not all guests are compensated for their appearances?

If you have ever traveled for a show you'd know how expensive a process that can be, and whereas some DO get a free room or a set up, unless they're a 'special guest', they still have to pay for travel, food, and anyone they bring with them. 

If it was such a money grab for them, they'd do EVERY show including Wizard.. but they don't... They have to carefully choose where they set up so that they don't LOSE money on it. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

24 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

And CC, did you know that many of those creators PAY their own way to set up at shows, not all guests are compensated for their appearances?

If you have ever traveled for a show you'd know how expensive a process that can be, and whereas some DO get a free room or a set up, unless they're a 'special guest', they still have to pay for travel, food, and anyone they bring with them. 

If it was such a money grab for them, they'd do EVERY show including Wizard.. but they don't... They have to carefully choose where they set up so that they don't LOSE money on it. 

I could get like the top creators charging like Neal Adams,Steranko and Stan Lee. They are the GOATS and earned the respect,but a lot of these writers/artists/celebs are bottom of the barrell and b and c-listers who charge for their autograph. That I don't get.

You make some good points though about the costs, maybe there can be away for the fans,creators and hosts of these conventions to get together and find a better alternative?

Because right now it seems the fans seemed to be taking the most brunt of the costs.

If they don't lower the prices,than eventually these shows will be dead.

Same thing happened with baseball card shows. People would line up to pay for lots of over-priced autographs. At one time there was thousands of these baseball card shows. Now they are dying and about dead.

Same thing could happen here.

Maybe the creators could meet half-way with the fans to lower the costs? 

Edited May 14, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[Aweandlorder]

1 hour ago, TeamStarlin said:

The root of all (this) evil is CGC.

The root of all evil is silver ink

[MadGenius]

I think a lot of creators overestimate the market for Signature Series books. The margins are very low (or non-existent) once you figure in the extra $10 for CGC, facilitator and/or creator fees. Unless it's a truly legendary creator (Stan Lee, Frank Miller) or a celebrity, the signatures don't add that much value to the books. Not to mention the fact that signatures aren't really speculated on like other things in the hobby (1st appearances, "rare" variant covers, etc.). Those signed books are ending up in the hands of fans moreso than being traded as commodities. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by MadGenius

[Mercury Man]

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Some of these artists/writers are quite wealthy. It doesn't look right for them to be charging thier fans for autographs. I think this practice  will be looked at as lame and petty by future generations.

 

28 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I could get like the top creators charging like Neal Adams,Steranko and Stan Lee. They are the GOATS and earned the respect,but a lot of these writers/artists/celebs are bottom of the barrell and b and c-listers who charge for their autograph. That I don't get.

I think you are contradicting yourself.   Does Stan Lee need $120-$150 per signature over a 4 day convention?  Pretty sure Stan is sitting on a pile of cash, why does he have to charge so much?  Frank Miller, Todd McFarlane etc. should be the one's maybe coming down on their asking price.  

Does an athlete making $30 million dollars a year need to charge for their autograph?  Hell no.  How many Sportscard Autograph shows do we see now?  I can't think of one in my State that occurs on an annual basis like some of the Comic-Cons we get (Orlando, Tampa, Miami). 

Most of the 'bottom of the barrell'  you refer to are people with not a lot of money in the bank, who probably have to dig into their savings and pay for flight, hotel, materials, time etc. just to hopefully come out a head a grand for an appearance, some may even lose a few bucks if they gamble wrong.  Just my

[SteppinRazor]

1 hour ago, SkyPinkBluLovesCBCS said:

It wasn't like this before CGC and it wouldn't be like this if there was no CGC. The lowest common denominator is CGC.

You are absolutely correct on the first two points, but CGC didn't make people care about what condition their comics were in, and it didn't make people accept the idea of grading.  People did that on their own.  That is the nature of collectibles. The lowest common denominator is if people want something, they will create tiers of exclusivity and rarity all by themselves.  CGC is an active participant no doubt but also a reflection of people creating a market.

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

They get plenty of free publicity when they go to these cons. That should be their payment.

It doesn't look right when a millionaire creator who got rich off these fans than double dips and charges these same fans for his autograph.

Like I said most of these artists/writers are not having their doors knocked down for current work, and should appreciate that they still have some fans left that want to line up for hours to meet them.

If artists/writers got together and said in unison that from now on we will give back to the fans with giving free autographs.

The interest in them would go off the charts!

It would be a good-will win situation for the fans and creators long-term.

 

 

I would suggest that they got rich off of creating million dollar creations, not 'off fans'.  Fans found those creations compelling enough to spend their money on it, the creations made that happen.

I don't think free signatures would generate demand in the comic market, but I'm no expert in that regard, so perhaps you are right.

It probably isn't a popular position given whose board this is, but my personal opinion of what the comic collecting arena looks like now is that the market has gone too far in terms of authentications and grading.  Needing just short of a notary for a comic book creator signature is absurd, and I think a 100pt grading system is beyond the pale.  But as far as things that happen in this world that are absurd, those aren't high on the impact list for me. 

And you are certainly correct that the baseball card market is a cautionary tale.  At least steroid use in comic creation isn't a big deal

Edited May 14, 2017 by SteppinRazor

[ComicConnoisseur]

9 minutes ago, Mercury Man said:

 

I think you are contradicting yourself.   Does Stan Lee need $120-$150 per signature over a 4 day convention?  Pretty sure Stan is sitting on a pile of cash, why does he have to charge so much?  Frank Miller, Todd McFarlane etc. should be the one's maybe coming down on their asking price.  

Does an athlete making $30 million dollars a year need to charge for their autograph?  Hell no.  How many Sportscard Autograph shows do we see now?  I can't think of one in my State that occurs on an annual basis like some of the Comic-Cons we get (Orlando, Tampa, Miami). 

Most of the 'bottom of the barrell'  you refer to are people with not a lot of money in the bank, who probably have to dig into their savings and pay for flight, hotel, materials, time etc. just to hopefully come out a head a grand for an appearance, some may even lose a few bucks if they gamble wrong.  Just my

The bottom line point I am trying to make is it is the fans who are the most important element of this and who push the money. If they turn off their loyal fans than there goes all those creators money trees.

They should start giving back to the fans or eventually these shows will go the way of baseball card shows.

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[Ken Aldred]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

No no no... it was there LONG before CGC. And CGC's primary function IS of importance to this hobby. 

Anyone who buys and sells high dollar books via the internet is thankful to at least have some semblance of order there. 

Neal Adams was extremely frustrated with his work being flipped on eBay well before CGC started.

[topofthetotem]

i doubt there is anyway to make everybody happy, butt hurt will always abound. That's what freedom is all about.

 

[wombat]

3 minutes ago, topofthetotem said:

i doubt there is anyway to make everybody happy, butt hurt will always abound. That's what freedom is all about.

 

[VintageComics]

5 hours ago, joeypost said:

I can understand his stance since it does not take much to push these guys over the edge, especially when they see the extra money their signatures bring. While we would like to think this is an isolated incident, unfortunately it's not. I have personally witnesses people fail to donate money to the heroes initiative after the artist said that was all they required for their signature. 

It's a d-bag move to snake the creator for coin when they are profiting from it.

Hopefully CGC can resolve this.

Even though I'm not a Sig Series guy, I understand the need for it. It would be a shame if people can't get witnessed sigs from one of the greatest creators of the bronze age.

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I could get like the top creators charging like Neal Adams,Steranko and Stan Lee. They are the GOATS and earned the respect,but a lot of these writers/artists/celebs are bottom of the barrell and b and c-listers who charge for their autograph. That I don't get.

You're defending Stan Lee's right to charge for autographs? A guy who has made more money than probably anyone in comics (especially from someone who hasn't contributed anything noteworthy to it in almost 40 years) than anyone who regularly does shows?

And who are these b and c list creators you think are charging and making so much for their autographs?

My experience, and I've gone to 30+ shows over the last 6 years, is that the b and c list guys very rarely if EVER charge, and when they do, it's a contribution to a comic related charity.

Quote

You make some good points though about the costs, maybe there can be away for the fans,creators and hosts of these conventions to get together and find a better alternative?

Because right now it seems the fans seemed to be taking the most brunt of the costs.

Fans will ALWAYS take the brunt of the costs. That's the nature of it. Starlin ISN'T charging for non-CGC fans. They get their signatures for free. 

It's people like Neal Adams, who charges EVERYONE, or Jim Steranko, who doesn't do a show unless ALL of his expenses are covered, people you're DEFENDING, who are gouging fans because they have this notion that somehow everyone is getting rich off their name.

The people who got rich off their name are the same people they continue to suck up to, Marvel and DC.

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If they don't lower the prices,than eventually these shows will be dead.

Some shows are already dying.

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Same thing happened with baseball card shows. People would line up to pay for lots of over-priced autographs. At one time there was thousands of these baseball card shows. Now they are dying and about dead.

Same thing could happen here.

Maybe the creators could meet half-way with the fans to lower the costs? 

It's the CONVENTIONS who don't want to lower costs. Wizard is finding out the hard way... you overcharge guests and over charge creators and you start to lose real creators and your shows will start to die. FT. Good riddance.

Except Chicago. That's good Wizard show. Still not much there in the way of creators though...

Edited May 14, 2017 by Chuck Gower

[Prince Namor]

17 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

It's a d-bag move to snake the creator for coin when they are profiting from it.

Hopefully CGC can resolve this.

Even though I'm not a Sig Series guy, I understand the need for it. It would be a shame if people can't get witnessed sigs from one of the greatest creators of the bronze age.

I'm the same way.. I've lost the desire for SS, but I understand the need for it, and get why people like it. CGC just needs to step up if they want to keep this together. 

This could turn into a bad deal really fast. After Marvel's big brouha about it at C2E2 and now this? C'mon CGC, get it together...

[fastballspecial]

18 hours ago, 1Cool said:

 awesome