F For Fake Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 9 hours ago, BCarter27 said: Don't forget the Batman Animated Series that left its mark on an entire generation of kids... so much so that Bruce Timm's Batman is probably the most popular rendition of the character. TMNT is very comparable to TWD, but just further down the same path with a few revitalizations under its belt. Since Nickelodeon bought out TMNT, that will prop it up for a very long time as well. TWD's place in comics history is well-established now, but I think the main difference between TWD and TMNT is that one is a kids property -- along with all of the merchandising that goes with that.. As such, TMNT is going to generate nostalgia (in several different generations) that TWD will simply never have. Agreed re: Harley's impact and influence being much, much greater than simply "Thus far Harley has been in a bad movie." You have 25 years now of viewership and nostalgia for Batman the Animated Series and all of its various media offshoots, toys, video games, animated sequels, etc. As has been pointed out, Harley's pop culture penetration is far greater than just Suicide Squad. It's much greater than just Cosplay at conventions. It IS Halloween costumes, it IS t-shirts at Hot Topic, it IS wildly popular video games like Injustice, etc. I'd argue that she's DC's fifth most popular character, after Batman, Joker, Superman, and now Wonder Woman, who I did have at #5, but is currently getting a bump due to the hype over the movie. Harley is huge, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F For Fake Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 12 hours ago, delekkerste said: I am not a Deadpool or a Harley fan, but, if given the choice, I'd take the NM 98 cover, hands down. I can at least appreciate that this is a real first appearance in a mainstream title by the character's creator drawn in his own style and not just the adaptation of a cartoon character by someone other than her creator for DC's out of continuity kiddie Batman title. Pass! Comic art prices don't have to make sense, of course. But, sales like ASM 328 prove nothing other than occasionally we can get freak results, not that this sets any kind of new benchmark, or that we should expect these kinds of results for every high profile piece that comes along; McSpidey 1 and ASM 121 didn't shoot to 7-figures just because ASM 328 fetched $657K. I also must take issue with the continued line about the "kiddie" title. The various Batman the Animated series books (Batman Adventures, Batman and Robin Adventures, Batman Gotham Adventures) represent a highwater mark for the character in comics storytelling. Perhaps the line was initially aimed at "kiddies", but there's no question that the support for the title came from adults who appreciated the streamlined and FUN stories told in these books. I think they're among the best Bat comics ever published, and I'm definitely not alone in that. Not saying that this would impact the value of the cover at all, but the series is definitely remembered fondly by longtime Bat comic fans, not just kids who read it as it was coming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share Posted May 25, 2017 2 hours ago, delekkerste said: Because the price of the former is an outlier and the value of the latter is well established. Anyone who has to resort to using the ASM 328 sale to justify or benchmark their valuation has already lost the argument. As Brian pointed out, that result has had no predictive value on any results since then - countless superior pieces have sold for less money while there hasn't been any discernible increase in similarly mind-boggling results. The market is up, of course, since 2012, but outliers remain outliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 SquareChaos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareChaos Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 If some of us may be pulling HQ down further than she needs to be pulled down, some of us are building her up to a ridiculous level. She IS Halloween and wildly popular video games? Well OK then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, zhamlau said: I believe also though, that the collector also got the publishing rights to them as well? Highly doubtful. Crumb's work may seem wierd, but he had creator rights smarts before everyone got theirs, and built both his legacy and fortune on retaining publishing rights to his works, and didn't mind getting involved from the early beginnings, helping in assembling his self-published work in his apartment, and distributing his own comics on the streets. And his tight grip on publishing rights paid off as many of his works have been reprinted for over 40 years (hard to imagine that Zap Comix 1 celebrates 50 this year). Some of the projects I'm aware of from the last two decades he was contacted about were seeking permission to reprint his work, so unless there's something different about this Fritz cover, I'd imagine the same rules apply of owning his work for aesthetic/decorative enjoyment, and not for commercial gain. Edited May 25, 2017 by comicwiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twanj Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, comicwiz said: Highly doubtful. Crumb's work may seem wierd, but he had creator rights smarts before everyone got theirs, and built both his legacy and fortune on retaining publishing rights to his works, and didn't mind getting involved from the early beginnings, helping in assembling his self-published work in his apartment, and distributing his own comics on the streets. And his tight grip on publishing rights paid off as many of his works have been reprinted for over 40 years (hard to imagine that Zap Comix 1 celebrates 50 this year). Some of the projects I'm aware of from the last two decades he was contacted about were seeking permission to reprint his work, so unless there's something different about this Fritz cover, I'd imagine the same rules apply of owning his work for aesthetic/decorative enjoyment, and not for commercial gain. Something like repro rights would have influenced the price and be mentioned in the listing if they were included I'm sure https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/robert-crumb-r-crumb-s-fritz-the-cat-cover-original-art-ballantine-1969-/a/7163-91033.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 1 hour ago, F For Fake said: wildly popular video games like Injustice, I keep forgetting about this because I am not a gamer, but her appearance in the Arkham games is what I attribute to putting her back in the limelight after the Animated Series wore off. These games were a HUGE influencer! F For Fake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share Posted May 25, 2017 44 minutes ago, SquareChaos said: If some of us may be pulling HQ down further than she needs to be pulled down, some of us are building her up to a ridiculous level. She IS Halloween and wildly popular video games? Well OK then. Lots of BS on both sides for sure. She's a popular character, it's a great image with Harley, Ivy, and Batgirl, it's the first (or *first if you prefer) appearance, and she is popular now and looks poised to be popular for decades to come. That's enough for six figures these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Any price estimates on the Alex Ross Batman Harley Quinn cover? Or opinions on Ross's other big works from this period? Surely, it's more difficult to fault the art in those. What about the two Timm Mad Love covers? That would run around the character's creator argument. Of course, no first appearances, but we have to shift this discussion before some of you guys start burning your collections or something. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) Couldn't guess without getting drawn into a whole other discussion; I do like the mad love covers there by Timm better than the Ross pieces. The Ross pieces have always left me cold. Edited May 25, 2017 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareChaos Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 32 minutes ago, Bronty said: Lots of BS on both sides for sure. She's a popular character, it's a great image with Harley, Ivy, and Batgirl, it's the first (or *first if you prefer) appearance, and she is popular now and looks poised to be popular for decades to come. That's enough for six figures these days. She is definitely a popular character, but I still wonder... how does she become anything more than a sidekick? Because that is what she is. My preferred version is the animated series version, but this new versions has ramped up the sex appeal and crazy, but it hasn't added anything that would seem to enable the character to stand alone. Her entire identity is tied up in the Joker, that is what made her a great supporting character to begin with. Her entire origin story is a great Joker story, not a great Harley Quinn story. So, yeah, I agree, she is popular, but where can she go from here? That is how I try to look ahead - it is a totally agnostic strategy from an art perspective, but I think most of us agree any play on BA12 would likely be speculative anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) Speculative yes, as are a lot of plays these days frankly. Its absolutley true about the supporting character point - she's never going to be batman, but a fun part of batman stories. That's her strength and weakness all in one. However, Batman (and the Joker) have gotten to be big enough that they will be around for a long time while other (standalone) characters may fade in popularity, or may surpass her. But she's going to be around for a long time no matter what, even if it's with a lower ceiling. Edited May 25, 2017 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaSealed Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Mad love = $55-60k Batman: HQ = $75-80k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, SquareChaos said: So, yeah, I agree, she is popular, but where can she go from here? If I were DC, I would have her kill her abusive ex boyfriend. She would be the one to do what Batman was never willing to do. This would cement her as his new number 1 villain. She is in a very grey anti-hero area right now that may or may not be sustainable (from a story point of view). There are some good essays around the web discussing this, but it is all wrapped up in DC trying to reconcile her merch popularity with her dubious story origins. Edited May 25, 2017 by BCarter27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, NinjaSealed said: Mad love = $55-60k Batman: HQ = $75-80k I think this is probably pretty close. I prefer the Timm cover. So I would value them both around $75K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bronty said: Lots of BS on both sides for sure. She's a popular character, it's a great image with Harley, Ivy, and Batgirl, it's the first (or *first if you prefer) appearance, and she is popular now and looks poised to be popular for decades to come. That's enough for six figures these days. I'm more reticent about casually deeming things worth six figures (or even mid-to-high 5 figures) just because we've seen some crazy results in recent years. There are plenty of better images by better artists that have sold for less than those amounts. There are plenty of major first appearances that have sold for less than 6-figures as well. Nobody knows if HQ will be popular for decades to come. Once the novelty wears off, and she just becomes an established supporting character and people have moved on to other Halloween costumes, will BA 12 still be worth the $150K+ that people claim? It's the perceived heat and sizzle that causes people to think that BA 12 is worth that much. Objects in the mirror may be farther from krazy prices than they appear. Edited May 25, 2017 by delekkerste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 1 hour ago, BCarter27 said: If I were DC, I would have her kill her abusive ex boyfriend. She would be the one to do what Batman was never willing to do. This would cement her as his new number 1 villain. She is in a very grey anti-hero area right now that may or may not be sustainable (from a story point of view). There are some good essays around the web discussing this, but it is all wrapped up in DC trying to reconcile her merch popularity with her dubious story origins. An epic storyline would be Harley killing the Joker, and taking over his persona and becoming the new Joker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, delekkerste said: I'm more reticent about casually deeming things worth six figures (or even mid-to-high 5 figures) just because we've seen some crazy results in recent years. There are plenty of better images by better artists that have sold for less than those amounts. There are plenty of major first appearances that have sold for less than 6-figures as well. Nobody knows if HQ will be popular for decades to come. Once the novelty wears off, and she just becomes an established supporting character and people have moved on to other Halloween costumes, will BA 12 still be worth the $150K+ that people claim? It's the perceived heat and sizzle that causes people to think that BA 12 is worth that much. Objects in the mirror may be farther from krazy prices than they appear. This misses the point of this discussion. The question was, what would BA12 bring NOW at auction? Not would it bring 10 years from now...or 20. I think the owner of that cover should probably sell it now, as it is likely at or near its peak value. Edited May 25, 2017 by PhilipB2k17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said: This misses the point of this discussion. The question was, what would BA12 bring NOW at auction? Not would it bring 10 years from now...or 20. I think the owner of that cover should probably sell it now, as it is likely at or near its peak value. The first several lines, as well as the last line, of my post talk about the here and now. At the end of the day, somebody has to actually write a check to buy all these pieces at huge valuations that people are talking about. And, empirically, sales like the Hulk #180 and NYX #3 that exceeded most peoples' expectations have proven time and again to be the exceptions, not the rule. It's always easier to spend somebody else's money in a hypothetical manner than for two or more real people to put big $$$ on the line at auction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
